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Undead Hippo posted:It's not. It's not a question of optimization of outcome. It's a question of moral involvement. It's the trolley problem. That's not what the trolley problem is and using just bit of it makes zero sense. However, the second bit is also helpful in this discussion! The second bit applies to everyone who pulled the lever and saved the 5: why aren't you out there harvesting the organs of random people to save many many more? Originally this was used to poo poo on utilitarian ethics, but if you're committing to pulling the lever (ie voting labour), why aren't you also committing to doing more, no matter how illegal? Isn't it worth it? In which case you're at the same point as people who won't vote labour. Is it just because you'll get done for it, in which case it should still fit in the "lesser evil" category and you're either a coward or don't believe your own argument.
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Oct 13, 2022 16:41
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forkboy84 posted:It's this. My political goal is the destruction of the Labour Party. We tried to take it over from the left, it was a failure for a multitude of reasons that include the then leader being staggeringly naive for a nearly 35+ year MP. It was a fight for the heart of the Labour Party & he really just wanted everyone to just get along. So now it's a failure the death of Labour is the only real option. Labour winning another term in government obviously stymies that goal. I swear this is my last empty quote for the day
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Oct 13, 2022 16:46
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Voting (or not voting) Labour isn't illegal yet.Only Kindness posted:I assume this person was a plant, back in the day, like most of the QT audience.
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Oct 13, 2022 16:46
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The real answer to the butchered trolley problem being deployed for anything other than its intended purpose (which is making GBS threads on Jeremy Bentham) is that real life consequences don't work like a trolley on a train track and predicting outcomes like that, especially with something like voting, is basically reading tea leaves/tarot.
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Oct 13, 2022 16:53
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UK short-term politics is the trolley problem except after you run over either one or five people there's another junction with the exact same set-up and the trolley never slows down because everyone is obsessing about switching tracks instead of finding the brake. For completeness of analogy I guess the braking distance is an unknown number of junctions long, but if enough people go for the brake the trolley *will eventually stop*
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Oct 13, 2022 17:08
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The trolly problem but it's keith drunk driving and you are on a bicycle
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Oct 13, 2022 17:10
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if you pull the lever the trolley will still kill you but it will lament that it’s a difficult decision
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Oct 13, 2022 17:17
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If you live in a constituency with an MP in the SCG (or a candidate who will join if they win) and you don't vote Labour you can go gently caress yourself.
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Oct 13, 2022 17:20
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forkboy84 posted:Yes, 5 more years of the Tories is chronic, I don't want that. But 5 years of Tory-lite before 5 more years of the Tories proper again is better how? The NHS is in a dire situation, it needs more than "enough funding to keep it almost ticking over for 5 years, but still pretty shambolic in the scheme of things", it needs massive reform, massive investment to have a health service fit for purpose. We need a government that places human welfare over profit & growth. God do we need to end the obsession with growth, an environmental catastrophe. And Kieth loving Starmer isn't it. Kieth Starmer is at best going to pause most of the decline for 5 years. Sorry, not enough. Kicking the can down the road for 5 years is not acceptable. We've done that for longer than I've been alive, at some loving point there has to be a reckoning where big decisions are taken, & Kieth is not a man who is going to take big decisions unless it involves sending people to prison for the pettiest bullshit, like the last New Labour freaks who were in government In 5 more years of the Tories there won't be an NHS. The Tories winning and Labour dying is just kicking the can again. The Tories get 5 more years and a left wing alternative needs to form or cannibalise an existing party, which also takes time. Meanwhile everything gets more miserable and terrible, we lose more resources and rights to the Tories and fighting back gets harder. sebzilla posted:UK short-term politics is the trolley problem except after you run over either one or five people there's another junction with the exact same set-up and the trolley never slows down because everyone is obsessing about switching tracks instead of finding the brake. For completeness of analogy I guess the braking distance is an unknown number of junctions long, but if enough people go for the brake the trolley *will eventually stop* What does finding the brakes look like in our current situation? I still haven't seen any good alternative being offered except for "5 more years of the Tories and then something better might show up once everything gets so catastrophically bad that surely people will want better."
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Oct 13, 2022 17:25
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Only Kindness posted:Sausages are already means-tested, luv! (I assume this person was a plant, back in the day, like most of the QT audience.) quote:Question Time viewers slam Emma Barnett after host asked Angela Rayner if Labour would 'nationalise sausages' https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/question-time-host-emma-barnett-labour-nationalise-sausages-a4309576.html
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Oct 13, 2022 17:28
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Rayner should've answered "Yes actually, we are going to nationalise sausages. Now gently caress off."
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Oct 13, 2022 17:30
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Nephthys posted:What does finding the brakes look like in our current situation? I still haven't seen any good alternative being offered except for "5 more years of the Tories and then something better might show up once everything gets so catastrophically bad that surely people will want better." "Everything stays exactly as poo poo as it is now" is not the winning argument you think it is
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Oct 13, 2022 17:31
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Nephthys posted:In 5 more years of the Tories there won't be an NHS. The Tories winning and Labour dying is just kicking the can again. The Tories get 5 more years and a left wing alternative needs to form or cannibalise an existing party, which also takes time. Meanwhile everything gets more miserable and terrible, we lose more resources and rights to the Tories and fighting back gets harder. It takes some loving balls to argue that people should vote for the "massive expansion of PFI" party to save the NHS, I'll give you that. Maybe it was this interview with our future health secretary that brought you on board https://twitter.com/Lowkey0nline/status/1573650694460030978
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Oct 13, 2022 17:34
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oh that is a vile picture
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Oct 13, 2022 17:44
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Rarity posted:"Everything stays exactly as poo poo as it is now" is not the winning argument you think it is If there genuinely is a better alternative to the Tories than Labour I would love to hear it. If there isn't then Labour is the only alternative that can lead to positive change. Tarnop posted:It takes some loving balls to argue that people should vote for the "massive expansion of PFI" party to save the NHS, I'll give you that. Sounds pretty awful, but there are ways to fight back against this that doesn't involve the tories getting another 5 years to obliterate the NHS without mercy. But if you think they'll protect it better than Labour then I guess you do you.
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Oct 13, 2022 17:46
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Nephthys posted:If there genuinely is a better alternative to the Tories than Labour I would love to hear it. If there isn't then Labour is the only alternative that can lead to positive change. I won't be voting for the Tories either. Oh and I'll save you the bother: "not voting for Labour in FPTP is a vote for the Tories  "
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Oct 13, 2022 17:47
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Nephthys posted:Nobody said Biden was good, but he is getting some good things done. Which is a hundred times more than would be done under Trump. Imagination is a wonderful thing
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Oct 13, 2022 17:51
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Nephthys posted:If there genuinely is a better alternative to the Tories than Labour I would love to hear it. If there isn't then Labour is the only alternative that can lead to positive change. The idea that change can only come from inside of parliament is not necessarily accurate.
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Oct 13, 2022 17:54
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Nephthys posted:Sounds pretty awful, but there are ways to fight back against this that doesn't involve the tories getting another 5 years to obliterate the NHS without mercy. The NHS is done. For it to stay safe or improve it would have to have a government strong enough to stand up to the private interests that want to strip it apart and Labour don't want to do that, they want to work with them.
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Oct 13, 2022 17:58
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Nephthys posted:
none of which involve voting for labour in any constituency with a bad mp tho, because they agree with the tories on this do I think labour will nuke the economy for a joke or try to strong arm a nuclear power? no. Do I think they will do literally anything different with the NHS or quality of living or disability rights or protests or workers rights or lgbt rights? no. there is absolutely no reason to think otherwise you're applying a US styled understanding of politics to a system where it absolutely does not work at any level. If it was a coinflip corporate dictatorship like the US I would probably vote for the lesser evil, but I have to vote for individuals, and some of them openly want to do things I can absolutely never sign off on. Those people will then, having been elected, use their vote and their position to attack the NHS, attack every human right they can find, empower the met, and continue to sell off everything they can get their filthy hands on while calling you, me, and every human that has ever held a single moral principle terrorists and antisemites. I am not ok with handing over this kind of power and leverage to people that don't deserve to live, just because they're wearing the stolen skin of a long dead workers movement. If the tories go into an election as absolutely hosed as they appear to be then the only rational "least bad" approach would be for leftists to work out how to get the smallest possible majority and completely abandon individual constituencies based on how poo poo the PPCs are. Voting for the rosette decreases your chances of a good government because there's a huge block of cunts that can ignore the SCG and any other MPs who aren't monsters.
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Oct 13, 2022 18:00
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https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1580555497199251456
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Oct 13, 2022 18:27
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happyhippy posted:It's Game Theory. Man psychology in the 60s was loving wild. Tarnop posted:Every person in this thread advocating support for Starmer's Labour as the lesser evil is acting like it's self-evident that they will be less evil. Yes, it won't be good under labour, but at least it won't be horrifying in new and unexpected ways. If Rees-Mogg is a haunted ventriloquist, Streeting is definitely his missing dummy.
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Oct 13, 2022 18:41
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sebzilla posted:UK short-term politics is the trolley problem except after you run over either one or five people there's another junction with the exact same set-up and the trolley never slows down because everyone is obsessing about switching tracks instead of finding the brake. For completeness of analogy I guess the braking distance is an unknown number of junctions long, but if enough people go for the brake the trolley *will eventually stop* The trolley was taken out of service and there is instead a replacement ethics bus that runs only through the middle of orphanages.
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Oct 13, 2022 18:42
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'Starmer's Labour won't find new and exciting ways to make things worse' also seems like a claim rooted more in faith than evidence, especially considering how extravagantly toxic their management of their own party has been. They've conflated 'legitimacy' with antidemocratic far-right brutality, and that leads politicians to impressively terrible places. Just look at the sort of poo poo their lord and saviour Tony Blair is up to these days.
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Oct 13, 2022 18:46
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Yes, it won't be good under labour, but at least it won't be horrifying in new and unexpected ways. Have a read of that Jon Stone Twitter thread about all the appalling right-wing poo poo New Labour came out with. https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1231543272943898626?t=nKfFY_bI28xQ1cGOk-Cvsg&s=19
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Oct 13, 2022 18:48
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Labour invented the work capability assessments.
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Oct 13, 2022 18:51
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sebzilla posted:Have a read of that Jon Stone Twitter thread about all the appalling right-wing poo poo New Labour came out with. E: that's not my point. I'm not going to defend labour. I was replying to this post: Tarnop posted:Every person in this thread advocating support for Starmer's Labour as the lesser evil is acting like it's self-evident that they will be less evil. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 18:52
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Is that because the tories are worse or because the tories have been the ones in power for the last 12 years and continued on from where blair left off? As blair continued on from the tories before him?
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Oct 13, 2022 18:53
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I mean I don't see anything on there the Tories haven't done worse. Standing on the shoulders of giants
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Oct 13, 2022 18:58
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Tarnop posted:Every person in this thread advocating support for Starmer's Labour as the lesser evil is acting like it's self-evident that they will be less evil. I can only conclude that this is because there's no actual evidence that they'll be better, along with the substantial evidence I've seen that they'll be worse. So I think pretty evidently, Starmer's labour would have been very unlikely to release a mini budget that announced unfunded tax cuts for the rich and unfunded energy price freezes because Starmer's labour announced its own budget that explicitly didn't have these things and funded energy price freezes via windfall taxes on energy companies. The consequences of the Tory budget are that the pound crashed and the bank of England had to buy bonds in a bid to stop pensions from collapsing. These have multiple long term consequences. But to list two obvious ones. The pound crashing makes importing food more expensive which will knock on to food prices on supermarket shelves. It makes it that much harder for the poorest to be able to feed their families at a time when it's already going to be prohibitively difficult for them pay for even basic bills. The bank's actions knock on to interest rates which make mortgages a lot more expensive. This knocks on to people who don't own houses through their rent and also significantly harms anyone who has borrowed money at all, which encompasses a lot of poorer people trying to make ends meet. Typically even you assume that Tory and Labour policy are essentially the same, the Tories also make astoundingly stupid decisions moment to moment where Labour as they are probably wouldn't. With that being said I don't think your concerns about potentially regressive disability policy are invalid, nor do I want to say your anger is unjustified.
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Oct 13, 2022 19:01
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Man psychology in the 60s was loving wild.
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Oct 13, 2022 19:14
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forkboy84 posted:My political goal is the destruction of the Labour Party. My political goal is the destruction of the Conservative Party. If the Tories were electorally annihilated, like some of those recent polls suggested they could be, and as has happened elsewhere in different contexts (eg the Républicains in France in 2017, the Progressive Conservatives in Canada in the early 1990s), I would take that 10/10 over Labour being destroyed. Oh dear me posted:He hasn't prevented a 2nd term Trump. Touché.
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Oct 13, 2022 19:24
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Josef bugman posted:The idea that change can only come from inside of parliament is not necessarily accurate. Things have gotten bad enough that I'm all for social upheaval, but you can't rely on it happening. Gorn Myson posted:Yeah, you can vote Labour in to do the job instead. Its why Streeting has been talking about private investment in the NHS. They put the message out that they want corporate donors, they're now starting to get them and Labour are telling us what they'll get in return for that investment. I'm sorry but this is just pure defeatism. If politicians get enough blowback on a policy then they will U-turn on it. Truss is failing so spectacularly right now because she seems to be uniquely suicidal and is refusing to back down to pressure to the point that shitstain Bojo actually has a credible chance of walking back into No 10 this month. But most people in power loving love staying in power. If NHS privatisation means a Labour defeat at the polls there'll be pressure to back down on it. But to even get to that point we need the Tories out. Spangly A posted:none of which involve voting for labour in any constituency with a bad mp tho, because they agree with the tories on this If your MP is a complete monster then don't vote for them. Hell, I live in an area where it's Lib Dem or Tory so it's not like I'm saying vote Labour no matter what. The thing I'm against is the argument that accelerationism is a better alternative to Labour. I don't accept that and I absolutely refuse to accept the idea that rewarding the current brand of Tory cunts with more power and privilege is a good thing. gently caress every Tory that ever lived. The party that needs to be destroyed is them, completely and absolutely. I'm not pro-Labour, I'm anti-Tory.
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Oct 13, 2022 19:25
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sebzilla posted:Have a read of that Jon Stone Twitter thread about all the appalling right-wing poo poo New Labour came out with. Replying to this so I can find it another time
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Oct 13, 2022 19:31
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notaspy posted:Replying to this so I can find it another time You can bookmark tweets (which is how I found this at short notice) I've got a good one on Burnham saved too for the next time anyone starts to think he might be the answer to anything
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Oct 13, 2022 19:35
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Nephthys posted:I'm sorry but this is just pure defeatism. If politicians get enough blowback on a policy then they will U-turn on it. Truss is failing so spectacularly right now because she seems to be uniquely suicidal and is refusing to back down to pressure to the point that shitstain Bojo actually has a credible chance of walking back into No 10 this month. But most people in power loving love staying in power. If NHS privatisation means a Labour defeat at the polls there'll be pressure to back down on it. But to even get to that point we need the Tories out. I don't think this is true, it's true if you come out and go "muhahaha I am going to do this thing gently caress you idiots" like truss is doing, but the way the erosion of the NHS has gone under both the tories and labour has been to simply privatise it by parts, to make it more expensive to run and funnel money out of it to private interests, which eventually will produce a system that cannot function and give space for some ghoul to say "well we need to knock it all down and replace it with something else" but which does not see significant electoral backlash before that point. Everything labour are saying suggests they are entirely on board with continuing that plan. And the cost of doing that is a service that is worse funded and still means people dying when they don't have to, even before someone decides to destroy it entirely. Labour may not let the axe fall, but they are still dragging the NHS closer to the block. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 19:36
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Natural 20 posted:So I think pretty evidently, Starmer's labour would have been very unlikely to release a mini budget that announced unfunded tax cuts for the rich and unfunded energy price freezes because Starmer's labour announced its own budget that explicitly didn't have these things and funded energy price freezes via windfall taxes on energy companies. So, just to be clear, your evidence that Labour would be better is that a person who has openly stated he will make pledges he doesn't intend to keep in order to get elected said "I'd do it like this"? Nephthys posted:I'm sorry but this is just pure defeatism. If politicians get enough blowback on a policy then they will U-turn on it. Truss is failing so spectacularly right now because she seems to be uniquely suicidal and is refusing to back down to pressure to the point that shitstain Bojo actually has a credible chance of walking back into No 10 this month. But most people in power loving love staying in power. If NHS privatisation means a Labour defeat at the polls there'll be pressure to back down on it. But to even get to that point we need the Tories out. The shadow health secretary is giving pro-privatisation interviews and they're polling 20 points ahead. Which polls are we talking about here?
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Oct 13, 2022 19:37
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sebzilla posted:I've got a good one on Burnham saved too for the next time anyone starts to think he might be the answer to anything pls post this so i can send it to my mum who wants him in charge.
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Oct 13, 2022 19:53
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zhar posted:pls post this so i can send it to my mum who wants him in charge. https://twitter.com/josephattard02/status/1542110084356100097?t=WeBtc2qYVP2G1rwzgYWw0g&s=19
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Oct 13, 2022 19:55
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many thanks
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Oct 13, 2022 19:57
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