(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
|
oh no computerssssss
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2022 18:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 02:59 |
|
|
Ok but what if the internal contradictions of capitalism cause the system to collapse by itself? All the power of government surveillance won't feed and house people, and you really can't enforce the law without some sort of public backing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2022 18:14
|
|
|
What I'm saying is that claiming a popular uprising can't occur under a modern surveillance state may not be wrong, but I don't think we can assume such a state can remain stable indefinitely.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2022 18:15
|
|
|
A popular uprising can occur, we've all lived one in the US. The question is if organized formations can still develop capable of seizing power for the working class. I think so because even the development of "surveillance capitalism" has come with it's own new contradictions. The NSA can track everyone who downloads the pdf of "State and Revolution," but they are still letting everyone read "State and Revolution." A more restricted internet is completely possible and what we are trending towards. That's also less useful for surveillance purposes though. Even the situation of the imperialists is creating conditions for that internal surveillance and mass propaganda apparatus to break down. What happens to the ubiquitous cheap phones and computers in the US if Taiwan gets blockaded or used to wage a proxy war against China? When cost of living spikes because of fuel disruptions, what digital platforms and streaming services will people have to unsubscribe from by necessity.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2022 18:40
|
|
|
The upper limit of usefulness of information is your ability to act on it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2022 18:44
|
|
|
Azathoth posted:This is a point I've honestly never understood. Like yeah I get that it is true on a long enough timeline but say that when faced with the choice between socialism or barbarism, the ruling class decides that barbarism is what they want, and they've got the material resources to hold down the proletariat until they have literally destroyed the environment beyond the point of repair. Socialism will inevitably win is a dumbass point when the people in charge can literally destroy the world and rule over the smouldering crater as bandit kings effectively indefinitely. capitalists don't and can't maintain power through main force. they have to maintain a dynamic but ultimately fragile equilibrium in which the exploitation of the working class as a whole is so variegated, and enough workers are bribed with the proceeds of the super-exploitation of other workers, that a critical mass of people for whom revolution would actually be less painful and inconvenient than knuckling under and coping never develops. they have, in fact, failed; while it looks like their rule is ironclad and unchallengeable in the locality of the USA, if you look at the entirety of the earth you'll see places in which socialism is actually waxing in power, in part because it can do capitalism better than the bourgeoisie can even if the ruling class fires all the nukes (and note, the ruling class cannot fire all the nukes; what it can do is order workers to fire all the nukes on its behalf) there's nothing special about apocalyptic conditions that will magically enable one man to command a hundred others despite those hundred others hating him. bomb collars rust
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2022 19:32
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/After__History/status/1576354634322436096 dividing my whole life in to a series of five year plans sounds cool ngl
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2022 20:14
|
|
|
Danann posted:https://twitter.com/After__History/status/1576354634322436096 Every job interviewer who has ever asked you where you see yourself in 5 years was actually a secret tankie giving you a signal. You failed the test every time.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2022 20:33
|
|
|
Tbqf socialist planning is a very good definition of neurotization applied to positive effects - a psychoanalytic symptom that finds a proper place. Doing that with your own personal life however, welp Thank gently caress psychoanalysis and Marxism got together as really good buddies a little while after that era
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2022 21:19
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:Depends what part of marxism you're discussing. But part of the framework is passing from action to perceptual knowledge to rational knowledge to action and there’s this metacognitive sticking point between knowledge and action—-in what direction do you iterate? Why? By what means? You’re either moving toward or away from exploitation and alienation.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2022 21:51
|
|
|
still loling at being afraid of the computer
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2022 23:05
|
|
|
croup coughfield posted:still loling at being afraid of the computer that pnac guy from the anarchism thread was also convinced that phone call metadata and youtube recommendation algorithms represented the seat of bourgeois power
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2022 23:42
|
|
|
You can generate a poo poo ton of surveillance data but actually sorting through that data and finding usable information is the hard part. It's not as simple as a keyword search
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2022 00:40
|
|
|
Computer is like automation. Can be good but won't be in our lifetimes, so no sense in pretending its malignant outgassings like social media are worth preserving.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2022 02:02
|
|
|
unwantedplatypus posted:You can generate a poo poo ton of surveillance data but actually sorting through that data and finding usable information is the hard part. It's not as simple as a keyword search Yeah and most of the time you could get the useful data by just asking.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2022 13:50
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/dramaticirony/status/1579970317136826368
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2022 22:31
|
|
|
disaster pastor posted:yeah, even from what I've seen with my minimal experience, it's not all that uncommon to get disenchanted, become bitter, decide it's too late and nothing's ever going to change, and from there decide "if it's going to be the exploiters and the exploited for the rest of my life/forever, i better not be the exploited"
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2022 22:33
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/ebeggin1/status/1580728994676494336
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2022 08:22
|
|
|
there's nothing funnier than someone elses joke on twitter. keep up the great content!
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2022 13:37
|
|
|
croup coughfield posted:there's nothing funnier than someone elses joke on twitter. keep up the great content! Wait do you write jokes for your own personal consumption or what
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2022 17:47
|
|
|
we all write jokes for each other, communisticly
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2022 17:49
|
|
|
posting tweet jokes is basically neglecting developing your means of joke production to import cheap, poorly made lols from the west
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2022 17:50
|
|
|
croup coughfield posted:there's nothing funnier than someone elses joke on twitter. keep up the great content! shut up nerd
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2022 19:11
|
|
|
croup coughfield posted:there's nothing funnier than someone elses joke on twitter. keep up the great content! someone post that dril tweet 🤣🤣🤣🤣
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2022 19:14
|
|
|
sorry i failed to read the room. next time i'll try to find the correct thread out of the 9 or 10 marxist ones that are active on here (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2022 19:22
|
|
|
I've been reading about the Saur Revolution and the PDPA. It seems like the soviets faced something similar in the stans, but were far more successful. The PDPA also had a pretty antagonistic relationship with the more Islamic portions of the country, but that was a similar situation that the Soviets were in. Why were the Soviets so successful vs the PDPA? Did things like collectivization, and industrialization just not work out in Afghanistan? Did the PDPA not take into account the various ethnic groups that made up the country? Or was a combination of a bunch of these things?
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2022 19:37
|
|
|
Yossarian-22 posted:sorry i failed to read the room. next time i'll try to find the correct thread out of the 9 or 10 marxist ones that are active on here that was a test and you flinched. you're gonna have to stab one of these guys now.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2022 20:22
|
|
|
AnimeIsTrash posted:I've been reading about the Saur Revolution and the PDPA. It seems like the soviets faced something similar in the stans, but were far more successful. The PDPA also had a pretty antagonistic relationship with the more Islamic portions of the country, but that was a similar situation that the Soviets were in. I don't know anything about the PDPA beyond extremely basic facts but I strongly suspect that whatever fuckups they made were correctable up until the US decided to get involved. Again, ignorant about the details, but I really doubt there were enough material/cultural/whatever differences between Afghanistan and the comparative successes to explain much. Also my understanding was that the actual Saur coup/revolution was very successful. There were some organized counterrevolutionary threats but I don't think they were existential after the coup. I think the actual big PDPA fuckup was the unaddressed Parcham-Khalq faction split that led to a countercoup/assassination and then the Soviets intervening and then the US smelling blood. I also think the US probably was or would have gotten involved regardless and it may have been doomed even without the factionalism, but I couldn't find much about the PDPA government after the revolution being in too much trouble until Taraki's assassionation. Again, pretty bare knowledge so I might be way off base but my hunch is that the USSR probably should have known better based on their past experiences than to reconcile the Parcham-Khalq split so halfassedly.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2022 21:02
|
|
|
From what I remember from political economy classes, Afghanistan was a very strong demonstration of Not-Knowing-Your-Marxism. This thread has a lot of relevant quotes and arguments from the big guys about doing poo poo properly, right? I think I've brought that one from Stalin dunking on idiots from the CPSU about the development of socialist agriculture: "don't loving put Islamic peoples to raise pigs" etc. Mao? Work with the people, go to them, etc. The Afghani Marxists, iirc, just decided to force a Soviet approach in a country which never had any of the geographical factors, especially this one to begin with:  You can fit a few Afghanistans there; sure, a bit less if you discount the proper arable land. Socialist agriculture towards exportation was absolutely fundamental for the Soviet Union to pull off the industrialization strategy. Afghanistan, in comparison, is almost just rock. Doing some google, it seems that it has just 11% of its territory as arable land. It had very little pre-socialist development of capital accumulation, less than Russia's - tribal relations and peasantry-like conditions are determinant even today. Economic factors aside, it seems to me that the most significant failure was to disregard the absolute necessity of mass-line politics to foster socialism. Winning over tribal relations and building revolutionary societal bonds is absolutely necessary when a vanguard has a very thin margin of political power, imo
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2022 22:29
|
|
|
I think you will find that Afghanistan did develop a very successful export-driven agricultural program.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 08:23
|
|
|
Cuttlefush posted:I don't know anything about the PDPA beyond extremely basic facts but I strongly suspect that whatever fuckups they made were correctable up until the US decided to get involved. Again, ignorant about the details, but I really doubt there were enough material/cultural/whatever differences between Afghanistan and the comparative successes to explain much. Also my understanding was that the actual Saur coup/revolution was very successful. There were some organized counterrevolutionary threats but I don't think they were existential after the coup. I think the actual big PDPA fuckup was the unaddressed Parcham-Khalq faction split that led to a countercoup/assassination and then the Soviets intervening and then the US smelling blood. A matter of timing? There just wasn't a rising tide of Wahabist psychos funded by Saudi money when the USSR was building their country.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 09:15
|
|
|
https://discord.gg/9JpepxsX joining this Adam Curtis "fan" discord is... quote:Either they'll come up with compelling alternative or they'll realize maybe Fukuyama was right quote:
and it's like this the entire time 
BornAPoorBlkChild has issued a correction as of 11:17 on Oct 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 11:13
|
|
|
genericnick posted:A matter of timing? There just wasn't a rising tide of Wahabist psychos funded by Saudi money when the USSR was building their country. Plus Big Boss came out of his coma around the same time.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 11:26
|
|
|
BornAPoorBlkChild posted:https://discord.gg/9JpepxsX These people are dumber than poo poo I can understand having these views but having them as a result of watching curtis' work is proof of the infinite flexibility of the human mind
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 11:58
|
|
|
Doktor Avalanche posted:These people are dumber than poo poo adam curtis is a conservative one of his most annoying points is that all revolutions have "failed" because they didn't solve all the problems
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 12:40
|
|
|
genericnick posted:A matter of timing? There just wasn't a rising tide of Wahabist psychos funded by Saudi money when the USSR was building their country. I didn't mean to imply it was just a matter of timing. that's a side effect of my conception of this is just being a timeline skeleton that I know needs to be filled in. I agree that the ultimate failure in afghanistan is due to the us/saudi arabia/capital organizing and funding opposition. I'm mostly posting on this because it helps me sort through things and get people to correct me or throw references my way. I'm not trying to make any declarations or insights. My timeline skeleton: 1839 - First Anglo-Afghan War 1878 - Second Anglo-Afghan War 1919 - Third Anglo-Afghan War 1933 - Mohammed Zahir Shah becomes king after his dad gets assassinated (not Britain). Tries to not get political in WW2 or Cold War. 1964 - New constitution establishes parliament etc. Operation Snake Eater 1965 - PDPA founded by Nur Mohammad Taraki and Babrak Karmal. USSR says hello. PDPA wins 4 seats out of 215 in parliament elections. 1967 - Faction split. PDPA basically splits into Nur Mohammad Taraki's Khalq and Babrak Karmal's Parcham. 1973 - Mohammed Daoud Khan with army + Parcham coup Mohammed Zahir Shah, his cousin. New constitution. Khalq excluded from playing but continues to recruit and organize. Both factions maintained active relationships with the USSR. 1977 - Khalq and Parcham officially make up, reform PDPA. Combination of USSR trying to get them to do this for the past decade and Daoud increasingly giving off very strong about-to-purge-them energy 1978 - April 17. Parcham faction leader gets assassinated. Daoud says it wasn't him. PDPA doesn't buy it. April 19. Funural turns into a large rally/protest. Daoud gets spooked, arrests Karmal and other leaders from both PDPA factions that night. April 27. Coup. Enough of the military was either PDPA, sympathetic, or otherwise willing to back them that the main part of the coup took 12-24 hours. Daoud got strafed by his own jets and blasted by his own tanks. June. Khalq and Parcham make various political maneuvers against each other. Things are actually getting messy enough I'm gonna stop here. 1979 - OPERATION CYCLONE (Fourth Anglo-Afghan War, ft. CIA, ISI, GIP, introducing the Mujahideen) I'm going to have to actually work beyond this to find sources since most of the detailed writing on this I can easily find is from guys with anglo names or other suspicious qualifiers. Recommendations welcome.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 12:45
|
|
|
Turtle Watch posted:I think you will find that Afghanistan did develop a very successful export-driven agricultural program.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 14:57
|
|
|
lmao
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 15:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 02:59 |
|
|
Turtle Watch posted:I think you will find that Afghanistan did develop a very successful export-driven agricultural program. Hehehe Tbqf now I am wondering if that could be restructured into a socialist agricultural program
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 16:54
|
|