|
Fellis posted:Re-reading 101 is definitely good, I think there’s additional context for Frieren’s actions and Denken’s monologe with what 102 shows. They didn't have any strategy discussion at all. Frieren was effectively unconscious when Solitar broke the barrier and revealed her existence, and she didn't wake up until after Fern had been turned to gold. However, it's a style of combat the pair of them have previously used. It's basically the same way they handled the Frieren clone: Frieren occupies the foe's attention head-on, while Fern waits for an opportunity to deal a critical hit with high-speed attacks from a blind spot. Rather than trying to overcome Solitar herself, Frieren bet on having Fern back her up. But she'd been turned into gold, and Frieren didn't know where she was, so in order to free her from the gold, Frieren had to get rid of all the gold in a wide area. From there, Fern must have taken to the sky almost immediately to scope out the situation, find the fight, and snipe Solitar. From Frieren's perspective, it was a gamble - she had no guarantee that Fern was even still alive, let alone that she'd be in any state to immediately join the battle and be useful. But thanks to the lessons she learned during her time with the Hero Party, she trusted in her comrades, having faith that they would have survived long enough to be turned to gold. In the end, Solitar's fatal flaw was her inability to take the humans seriously as foes. As much she kept talking about the need to take humans seriously and not underestimate them, she still instinctively looked down on Fern and Stark in an actual fight. Even as cautious as she tried to be, she had to force herself to even worry about the possibility of Denken being a threat; Fern and Stark weren't really on her radar. She wasn't seriously cautious of them as a threat, and so she was slow to consider the possibility of them rejoining the battle and raise her guard against surprise attacks.
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2022 01:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 12:03 |
|
|
Gluck has been ungolded. He's going to find dying old man Denken, his dying friend Macht and wonder WTF I wonder if he will spin it that Macht did it to protect the city from another Demon army.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2022 01:32
|
|
|
By the way, I highly suggest rereading the Macht flashback (90-93) in addition 101; aside from a nice reminder of their history together, there's just lots of little lines that I think have more weight now that the fight's over. And fun things like this!  and a reminder that Gluck was only turned to Gold with everyone else; he wasn't shattered or anything. Considering how he kept saying he'd follow Macht into hell, and how much he liked Denken, wouldn't surprise me if we get something out of him so he gives himself up to save him while getting one last conversation with Macht
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2022 01:42
|
|
|
usenet celeb 1992 posted:"..." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YLMk1E41kE&t=78s
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2022 03:37
|
|
|
Gonna be a real trip for all these town people who have been in gold stasis for decades.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2022 03:42
|
|
|
rannum posted:By the way, I highly suggest rereading the Macht flashback (90-93) in addition 101; aside from a nice reminder of their history together, there's just lots of little lines that I think have more weight now that the fight's over. I think Gluck is giving Macht the side eye there because he knows demons don't use other demon's magic. Match only started using human magic after he trained Denken and stopped using it the duel with Denken after he began using his ultimate spell. Solitar was the only other demon we've seen using human magic.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2022 04:11
|
|
|
Frieren at the Funeral - Nah.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2022 06:53
|
|
|
in Ernest P. Worrell voice Hey Fern
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2022 16:56
|
|
|
Lmao 
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2022 17:04
|
|
|
Metapod posted:in Ernest P. Worrell voice Hey Fern LMAO
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2022 17:33
|
|
|
Macht has been fun and let cool magic grandpa Denken get page time. Before he gets blown up maybe he can feel a little guilt, as a treat
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2022 02:03
|
|
|
GloomMouse posted:Macht has been fun and let cool magic grandpa Denken get page time. Before he gets blown up maybe he can feel a little guilt, as a treat Author's gonna play this one straight
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2022 02:06
|
|
|
I was originally sure Macht was going to feel regret/malice and that would be his defeat. But Denken being the badass he is instead beat him by being the baddest dude. So, instead Macht is going to die feeling nothing at all or possibly regret at feeling nothing at all after all his attempts.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2022 08:02
|
|
Darth TNT posted:I was originally sure Macht was going to feel regret/malice and that would be his defeat. But Denken being the badass he is instead beat him by being the baddest dude. So, instead Macht is going to die feeling nothing at all or possibly regret at feeling nothing at all after all his attempts. Maybe he'll feel proud of his student then die. Do demons feel pride or is that another of those things they pretend they have?
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2022 08:36
|
|
|
I thibk how the author will choose to end machts story is how theyll handle demons going on. If macht really does die not understanding humans then they obviously intend demons to be just inherently incompatible woth human thought.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2022 09:30
|
|
|
Gluck will kill Denken before Macht fades away, which will finally gets Macht to feel Malice.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2022 13:51
|
|
|
I think I'd like the story to keep to the "demons are foes not friends" line but I wouldn't hate it if there was some glimmer of hope for something better in the distant future. Proof the mimicry works I guess lmao
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2022 18:54
|
|
|
GloomMouse posted:I think I'd like the story to keep to the "demons are foes not friends" line but I wouldn't hate it if there was some glimmer of hope for something better in the distant future. Proof the mimicry works I guess lmao Yeah, I feel like this has to play in to that flashback somehow with the Hero of the South. Supposedly, the Demon King and that one Sage had something in the works to prevent the total extinction of demonkind.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2022 21:03
|
|
|
i think the demons are still the weakest thing about this series but i'm glad they've at least been given some decent exploration. where they've ended up is basically just the pop culture idea of psychopaths rather than something truly alien. they just don't have any empathy and seem to by driven their own curiosity, survival, and enjoying battle. that does just result in diplomacy not really being possible - it seems like the only way for coexistence to be possible would be if they could be convinced other races were a true threat, rather than now where they're largely not a significant threat & they habitually underestimate that anyone can pose a true threat to them due to that possibility being a fairly recent development in the grand scheme of things & they're slow to adjust.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 03:45
|
|
|
Macht spending so much time attempting to live amongst humans, having some success in getting along with them, but ultimately being simply too alien to humanity and anathema to society that this entire storyline ends with nothing getting accomplished even now would be a bold move. At this point I say go for it, give us the bad end for this arc, and let's see if they pull it off well. Or go for the potential for redemption somehow eventually I guess, I'd be fine with either
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 05:40
|
|
|
Macht himself might be irredeemable but having the possibility of coexistence seems like a positive thing hero Himmel would've wanted. Would be nice if the main conflict was like Serie's outlook being "the only good demon is a dead one" and Frieran's changing to something more hopeful. Assuming Serie isn't playing some long game herself to level the playing field, but Freiran isn't a big fan of her and she seems kind of unpleasant generally. Might be nice if Freiran could someday stop being an anti-demon weapon and live in peace until she's eaten by a mimic
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 06:16
|
|
|
GloomMouse posted:Macht himself might be irredeemable but having the possibility of coexistence seems like a positive thing hero Himmel would've wanted. Would be nice if the main conflict was like Serie's outlook being "the only good demon is a dead one" and Frieran's changing to something more hopeful. Assuming Serie isn't playing some long game herself to level the playing field, but Freiran isn't a big fan of her and she seems kind of unpleasant generally. Might be nice if Freiran could someday stop being an anti-demon weapon and live in peace until she's eaten by a mimic I think the big question here is if Macht will feel malice at the end. He's not going to be able to cross the bridge now, there's too much water under it, but if a demon, even the most exceptional demon of the lot, can really understand humans, then the possibility is there... although Frieran cynically noted that demons who can understand humans would do a lot more killing before any kind of peace could be achieved. It's basically a question if understanding is possible now, and I think it's more likely than not, since Frieiran made a point that the Demon King was able to do it, which was why he had to die.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 07:10
|
|
|
Are mimics demons?
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 07:20
|
|
|
I thought she said demons that want to understand humans like the King end up killing (a lot more) people, and that they would end up killing everyone before they learned (bc she believes that it's not even possible). Regardless it's always strange when fantasy/sci-fi works put out stuff like "if we could only understand each other there would be peace" given our own history. Like it's a nice goal, but there's a big chasm to cross between understanding and peaceful coexistence!
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 07:22
|
|
|
If the demons wipe out another 3rd of humanity maybe they'll understand how humans work in the process.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 07:34
|
|
|
i mostly want to know what's up with demons being immortal weirdos who just want to kill humans for inexplicable reasons
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 07:44
|
|
|
Larry Parrish posted:i mostly want to know what's up with demons being immortal weirdos who just want to kill humans for inexplicable reasons That's the big question tbh. Because right now they seem to be doing it for shits and giggles, or as a puzzle to solve to pass the time
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 07:57
|
|
Larry Parrish posted:i mostly want to know what's up with demons being immortal weirdos who just want to kill humans for inexplicable reasons Don't most of them do it because they eat humans or something and they just predate on them? And then it seems like some of the more brainy sorts look for higher meaning in all this poo poo but can't truly relate to or understand humans in the end.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 08:36
|
|
|
That still kinda puts them in a weird place where they eat humans because they eat humans. Do they need something from them they can't get anywhere else? They don't just eat mages so 'mana' seems unlikely unless everyone has some and nothing else does. Otherwise even with them being powerful it's still a spicy diet.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 08:45
|
|
|
well there's a territorial war of sorts but it's unclear what the state of that really is since the demon king was apparently fairly key to organising the demons as to why they like to kill humans so much, it could easily just be that humans are their favourite food or something & that would probably be a more satisfying answer than anything else. fits with the whole 'superior predator race' thing
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 10:00
|
|
|
Nuebot posted:Don't most of them do it because they eat humans or something and they just predate on them? And then it seems like some of the more brainy sorts look for higher meaning in all this poo poo but can't truly relate to or understand humans in the end. They do, but it’s been explicitly noted a few times that they don’t actually need to in order to survive. For example the demon who disguised herself as a priest to ambush people talked about her needing to feed; and then when it was pointed out she didn’t need to had no answer to that. Demons do seem to have a psychological drive to kill and eat humans that goes beyond amoral survival instinct, and which demons themselves can’t really explain.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 11:57
|
|
|
Hidingo Kojimba posted:They do, but it’s been explicitly noted a few times that they don’t actually need to in order to survive. For example the demon who disguised herself as a priest to ambush people talked about her needing to feed; and then when it was pointed out she didn’t need to had no answer to that. So basically, Frieren-world demons are like billionaires in our world.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 12:13
|
|
|
Crymetimeboys posted:So basically, Frieren-world demons are like billionaires in our world. Ours don't do as great a job mimicking humans though
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 12:27
|
|
|
Hidingo Kojimba posted:They do, but it’s been explicitly noted a few times that they don’t actually need to in order to survive. For example the demon who disguised herself as a priest to ambush people talked about her needing to feed; and then when it was pointed out she didn’t need to had no answer to that. At this point it kind of seems like they just can't wrap their heads around the concept of killing being a bad thing. They simply have zero aversion whatsoever to killing a human that is no longer useful to them, to the point where they just don't even consider the option of not killing them. Macht and Solitar often talked with humans for the sake of learning about them. But when they felt like they were done learning, they always killed the human. Not because they were compelled to, or because they needed to, but just because killing a human that was no use to them was as natural as throwing out a toy they were done with. And in Macht's case, he killed humans in hopes that he might learn more about humans' perspective on killing and being killed. With the Macht arc, it kind of feels like it's drawing an intentional contrast with Frieren herself. Both Frieren and Macht had difficulty relating to humans, but spent a short but irreplaceable period of their long lives living with humans who they became quite close to. But from start to finish, they handled every bit of it in totally opposite ways. Even if Frieren tended to be inattentive toward the people around her, she still had genuine empathy when it really counted. Macht was extremely attentive to the details of human behavior, but could only really fake empathy when he was trying to lie to someone.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 19:42
|
|
|
I've always had the impression that Demons were some sort of weird constructs- so they could literally just be missing the wiring that allows them to feel emotions that would make them less efficient killing machines.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2022 21:48
|
|
|
I wonder if they're like, returned damaged souls from that land of the dead the group is journeying to, and their inherent monsterness is because they're only part of a soul There's been no indication of demon origins or how they breed, has there? I've forgotten some of the series since it began.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2022 00:16
|
|
|
We saw that one flashback with the child demon so they probably don't spring fully formed into existence, but I can't recall any other details.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2022 00:23
|
|
|
Yeah it's all rather mysterious.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2022 00:28
|
|
|
At the end of the journey they'll find the magic machine that pops out demons. Freiran will flip a big switch from BAD to GOOD
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2022 02:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 12:03 |
|
|
If they're constructs I'd put money on the elves having created them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2022 03:48
|
|