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Please tell me how dead dad is fine, but dead sister can never be recovered from.
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Oct 16, 2022 01:30
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Man, it’s a huge bummer to hear that kind of writing continues in 5. I played P3 years ago, but 4 launching on PC was my first go with it. Yosuke’s dialogue is really bad but after Kanji & Naoto’s arc I had to take a month break just to finish the game. Basically everything Yosuke says to/about Kanji & Naoto after their arcs is just hosed. The game has a lot of flavor and heart and is great fun but everytime I go back to play it all stands out even more/I notice more instances of it. And sadly the homophobia isn’t even the only issue… I was thinking P5 pc would be day 1 pc purchase but drat maybe not.
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Oct 16, 2022 01:30
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Hellioning posted:Please tell me how dead dad is fine, but dead sister can never be recovered from. It's the "personally caused the death" part. The fact that it was unintentional wouldn't change the immense guilt from that. Also I'm not saying "it can't ever be recovered from," but rather "it wouldn't be unreasonable if someone wouldn't recover from it." Losing loved ones is a normal part of the human experience that can be recovered from with the help of friends/family/community/therapy. Personally causing the death of a loved one is the sort of thing a person could conceivably never recover from, regardless of therapy. Maruki's point (that isn't wrong) is that sometimes people experience things that objectively harm their lives in a way that can never truly be alleviated. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Oct 16, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 01:35
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Also like Futaba was gaslighted into believing she drove her mom to suicide and is implyed to have killed herself in the bad ending to her Palace, that's on par with Kasumi to me.
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Oct 16, 2022 01:35
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:Also like Futaba was gaslighted into believing she drove her mom to suicide and is implyed to have killed herself in the bad ending to her Palace, that's on par with Kasumi to me. But in that case there's the possibility of proving that she didn't (and this ends up being necessary to Futaba's recovery). The same isn't true for Sumire - she literally did cause her sister to die. There's no "helpful truth" to be revealed at the end of that, like there was for Futaba.
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Oct 16, 2022 01:40
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Ytlaya posted:It's the "personally caused the death" part. The fact that it was unintentional wouldn't change the immense guilt from that. Gatekeeping trauma is not a hill I was expecting you to die on. Haru watching her father's brains dribble out on live TV and thinking she might have caused it is at least on the same level as what you're trying to argue. E: And just to remind you of the original argument you were trying to make: Ytlaya posted:It is kind of annoying seeing all these dumbass kids who have not even begun to live life trying to impart important life lessons to this adult, though. This is a really weird point to make since several of these 'dumbass kids' had just as bad or a worse low point than Maruki and dealt with it in a healthier manner. anakha fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Oct 16, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 01:44
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Best Friends posted:100%. Yosuke reads to me like a teenager reacting to internalized homophobia. But without any explicit confirmation that he’s struggling with coming to terms with his own sexuality in a homophobic world, he just comes off as a hateful little poo poo. Although I've been aware of this mod since ... a long time ago I haven't played it yet other than I dream of being free from P4 but I'm worried it won't really reflect my thoughts on everything  I feel like all the fanfics and AU I read will vanish if I play this route and it's really not good but ...someday.
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Oct 16, 2022 02:00
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I mean playing a fan romance mod isn't really any different from reading a fanfic or an AU or whatever. Don't let that stop you.
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Oct 16, 2022 02:07
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Motto posted:gigantic tweet threads are bad as usual but people blowing up over some streamer not liking P4 was ridiculous. their read on kanji was probably off but their sentiment was ultimately just that they weren't feeling the game and were prob gonna drop it yeah that part sucked rear end (the Big rear end tweet thread im thinking of was by a diff person and in response? to the yter stuff); iirc the yter even said that they were enjoying the game but kinda Eh on that one part and then so many Well Acksuallys jumped down their throat about it that they went "yeah nah im dropping the game" uh, basically nusona writing is just this tweet, to me https://twitter.com/corviiid/status/1506256426791948294 while there is definitely still some homophobia, iirc the only Big Instance of it is the gross gay duo in 5 that show up a few times that the loc of 5R (which is gonna be on pc?) rewrote slightly its still not like, great or anything but its a minor improvement over 4s treatment
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Oct 16, 2022 02:08
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...the guys that prey upon a teenage boy who doesn't show interest is an improvement?
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Oct 16, 2022 02:13
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Neeksy posted:...the guys that prey upon a teenage boy who doesn't show interest is an improvement? its about as much improvement as when u put your pointer finger and thumb together and do this gesture with them 🤏, yeah 😔
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Oct 16, 2022 02:18
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it's an "improvement" in that it's less core to the story but yeah that's a low bar
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Oct 16, 2022 02:34
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anakha posted:Gatekeeping trauma is not a hill I was expecting you to die on. But it wasn't true that she caused it! With both Haru and Futaba, they eventually learn what actually happened and realize they had no fault in it. That's kind of a big deal (with Futaba it is directly necessary to her recovery!) and completely changes the nature of the situation. Is it really strange that "I literally caused my close family to die" might be a bit harder to recover from than other situations where family/friends die? I didn't think that I was making any sort of weird or controversial point with this (though obviously I was wrong about that). The situation is in many ways the opposite of the one with Futaba/Haru - in their case, revealing the truth of the situation is healing. But in Sumire's it causes pain (pain which she is able to recover from, but which it would be entirely reasonable for a person to not recover from). Also, I'm going to explicitly say that I don't mean for this post to sound combative or anything and I'm actually taking what you're saying seriously (just because I've been told before that the way I write things in typing comes off as cold/condescending, which is not at all intended). anakha posted:E: And just to remind you of the original argument you were trying to make: Maruki isn't wrong that situations like the one his ex-fiance experienced are things that a person might never be able to recover from. The Phantom Thieves' argument isn't "the way you're dealing with this is bad" (which is true) but is instead "these experiences are meaningful because they're part of who we are" (which is a conclusion that someone can/should only be able to decide for themselves; no one really has the right to enforce it on others). Maruki is basically taking a correct conclusion and then applying a wrong solution to it, while the Phantom Thieves are denying the conclusion itself; both are wrong, but in different ways. I'm not denying that any of these experiences were traumatic, and if any of the other characters couldn't heal their respective traumas it wouldn't be through any fault of their own. The point isn't "Haru/Futaba/etc should get over what they experienced and it's their fault if they don't" - it's "it's possible that someone won't be able to get over their experiences, and this is especially the case with Sumire because holy crap that's an exceptionally lovely situation." The point is to emphasize how bad one is, not to downplay how bad the others are. Which is kind of the whole point - the Phantom Thieves are just deciding that their experiences must apply to others (with the implication that someone is lacking if they don't recover and grow from their bad experiences). In the same way as Maruki is imposing his own values upon others, so are the Phantom Thieves (though IIRC they actually acknowledge this?). The whole point is that the Phantom Thieves aren't really in a position to be deciding that others should be forced to live with the various things they've experienced (and neither is anyone else, though it's worse that the people in question aren't even adults yet). My post did imply that Maruki is better in some way than the Phantom Thieves, so I apologize for that, since it was misleading and wrong. I think that both Maruki's solution (a weird sort of cognitive manipulation that doesn't really address the roots of the problem) and the Phantom Thieves' (basically just return to the status quo) were very wrong in different ways.
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Oct 16, 2022 02:47
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1. You moved the goalposts from your original argument. Your original point was that only Kasumi had an actual earth-shattering event, and without any further explanation, that comes across as gatekeeping trauma. In addition, you now seem to be pushing the point that certain traumatic events are easier to recover from than others without taking into consideration other factors. Both of these points are really hosed up unless you are an actual mental health professional. 2. If you think the PTs are forcing people to live with their experiences, you missed the whole point of the post-boss fight dialogue. Kasumi even says herself that giving the option can help. It's that unilaterally deciding that everyone has to be reshaped and ONLY in a particular manner solely to justify his own post-trauma actions is hosed up and what they were fighting against. anakha fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Oct 16, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 03:00
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I can't believe it took me this long to know for sure that we're being trolled.
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Oct 16, 2022 04:08
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Best Friends posted:100%. Yosuke reads to me like a teenager reacting to internalized homophobia. But without any explicit confirmation that he’s struggling with coming to terms with his own sexuality in a homophobic world, he just comes off as a hateful little poo poo. Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with this take. I loved P4 when I played it, but on review now, I think I loved the ideas I had about it more than the game itself.
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Oct 16, 2022 04:39
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Booky posted:
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Oct 16, 2022 06:30
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P4 improved upon 3 in at least getting the psychological concept of shadows right, and made the power to use personas something earned beyond having "the potential" in vague terms that gave me Harry Potter-rear end feels. Sadly this game was helmed by, again, the guy that had to be informed that men and women could have platonic relationships, in the 00s, so that little leap in understanding came a bit, uh, late.
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Oct 16, 2022 06:39
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That "I didn't realize men and women could have platonic relationships" quote gets thrown around a lot, but it's so colossally stupid that I have to wonder if it was mistranslated from something that was maybe at least marginally less stupid. Like maybe "I didn't realize that the player base would be interested in platonic relationships with the girls in the game" or something. Or like it's a dumb joke he made to avoid having to say "we didn't want to write entirely different platonic stories for these characters if we didn't have to" that gets constantly taken literally because people forget that folks who speak languages other than English can make jokes too. I'm just curious about that one quote, I'm not defending anything in the actual writing of the Persona games.
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Oct 16, 2022 07:00
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Commander Keene posted:That "I didn't realize men and women could have platonic relationships" quote gets thrown around a lot, but it's so colossally stupid that I have to wonder if it was mistranslated from something that was maybe at least marginally less stupid. Like maybe "I didn't realize that the player base would be interested in platonic relationships with the girls in the game" or something. Or like it's a dumb joke he made to avoid having to say "we didn't want to write entirely different platonic stories for these characters if we didn't have to" that gets constantly taken literally because people forget that folks who speak languages other than English can make jokes too. It could be but 'men and women can't just be friends' is a thing that comes up as a genuine belief on both sides of the ocean.
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Oct 16, 2022 07:48
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Yeah that's not a uniquely Japanese phenomenon or anything, but it does display a worldview that isn't exactly on the, uh, cutting edge of things.
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Oct 16, 2022 11:25
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I think some people on here and elsewhere have talked about how other Japanese games have had more progressive approaches on these topics, and that not everything can be blamed on the country's culture.
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Oct 16, 2022 11:42
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I have a friend, Tiffany, who I've been friends with longer than anyone else, since sixth grade. Everybody assumed we were an item because of how close we were. But nothing ever happened and I'd learn much later she was a lesbian so nothing was ever going to happen, either, but that didn't stop both our families from assuming. I think. especially for teenage boys and girls, folks remember "I was the dumbest, horniest person ever when I was that age so friendship can't be the all there is." I dunno, just a random guess. I still hate all the women falling in love with you. I know I've said it before but when I replay P4G again, I'll have to turn down both Yukiko and Marie since I've already romanced them. That'll suck because all the girls invariably are smitten with you and the Rank 9 choice is just choosing to return those feelings or not. Neeksy posted:P4 improved upon 3 in at least getting the psychological concept of shadows right, and made the power to use personas something earned beyond having "the potential" in vague terms that gave me Harry Potter-rear end feels. This is definitely one reason I've always preferred 4 to 3. Shadows in 3 are just generic monsters while 4 delves a lot more into our characters' personalities and how those issues can manifest as monsters. There's a big difference - the difference between why people love Silent Hill 2 and are meh on other, simpler stories. It's always more interesting when the monsters stand for something or come from somewhere very human. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Oct 16, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 17:18
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NikkolasKing posted:This is definitely one reason I've always preferred 4 to 3. Shadows in 3 are just generic monsters while 4 delves a lot more into our characters' personalities and how those issues can manifest as monsters. There's a big difference - the difference between why people love Silent Hill 2 and are meh on other, simpler stories. It's always more interesting when the monsters stand for something or come from somewhere very human. I would like to qualify that statement on "generic monsters". The monsters are symbolic of the Fool's Journey. Nonetheless, that is still not interesting especially compared to what's shown in 4 or 5.
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Oct 16, 2022 17:40
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Neeksy posted:Yeah that's not a uniquely Japanese phenomenon or anything, but it does display a worldview that isn't exactly on the, uh, cutting edge of things. There's still the point with Ann of 'reassuring hug = romantic' that bugs me.
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Oct 16, 2022 18:13
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Purely for the sake of not feeling like an rear end in a top hat, it would be nice if the decisive prompt for a relationship was something more proactive like "suggest a date". In fact, having a repeatable date mechanism would give you something to do once the Social Link reaches rank 10.
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Oct 16, 2022 18:23
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YaketySass posted:Purely for the sake of not feeling like an rear end in a top hat, it would be nice if the decisive prompt for a relationship was something more proactive like "suggest a date". In fact, having a repeatable date mechanism would give you something to do once the Social Link reaches rank 10. Some of the early rank-up events are essentially dates, though for better or worse, the romance is not deemed "romantic." Nonetheless, having a proactive option outside of just declaring love or giving a "reassuring hug" would be nice; having some relationships actually start romantically or start earlier as romantic would be a more realistic. As far I can recall, the only nuance in "romance" is in Persona 4 where earlier options can end a social link in a different way or completely lock you out of choosing the romantic route Also, there is a repeatable date mechanic in Persona 5, but it's only to accrue certain room decorations and minor bits of dialogue.
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Oct 16, 2022 20:20
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YaketySass posted:Purely for the sake of not feeling like an rear end in a top hat, it would be nice if the decisive prompt for a relationship was something more proactive like "suggest a date". In fact, having a repeatable date mechanism would give you something to do once the Social Link reaches rank 10. I mean, you sort of do? You can hang out in different places in 5 still. Though agreed its not much. It's very much the weird immature idea that 'get date= relationship/sex' It'd be nice to have an actual romance going on somewhere. Though it might be asking a bit much from teenagers. Or video game developers. I dunno.
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Oct 16, 2022 20:21
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I mean, that's part of why I like the White Day scene they added in Royal
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Oct 16, 2022 20:25
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Platonic Female Friend: My mom just died *starts crying* Me: Well, goodbye.
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Oct 16, 2022 20:27
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Arist posted:I mean, that's part of why I like the White Day scene they added in Royal This, honestly. More of that please? I understand the narrative challenge of accounting for the status of your party members and all, but considering what people usually discuss about the game when the topic comes to its writing, you'd think there'd at least be a monetary interest in catering to that.
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Oct 16, 2022 20:28
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a lot of persona's "romance y/n" moments are really bad. people talk about not dating futaba bc family, but the game doesn't let you say that, you get to a point where she obviously has a crush on joker and you either accept it or go "well that's just how you feel about teammates  " and she believes you
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Oct 16, 2022 20:35
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yeah the futaba trigger is especially skeezy because it sort of has you taking advantage of her social inexperience
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Oct 16, 2022 20:37
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Motto posted:a lot of persona's "romance y/n" moments are really bad. people talk about not dating futaba bc family, but the game doesn't let you say that, you get to a point where she obviously has a crush on joker and you either accept it or go "well that's just how you feel about teammates It's very weird, especially because there are multiple dialogue options that refer to her as family, including one in an optional Sunday outing where you can call her "basically my sister."
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Oct 16, 2022 20:37
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Something I also like about the protagonists of P1-2.5 is that they are not Dear Leader of the groups they are in. The other characters only come to rely on you when they need everyone's opinion, and you only tend to lead when given a chance to speak up at certain events. In P1 it makes sense thematically with the Emperor arcana that over time the others rely on you and change their initial assessments of you over the course of the game. If you die in battle, the thing doesn't end because everyone else is so loving dependent on YOU THE SPECIAL ONE that they don't know how to use items or reviving magic anymore. The older games also don't go out of the way to talk about how you, the blank protagonist, are the best most amazing person ever at every opportunity.
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Oct 16, 2022 20:54
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Neeksy posted:Something I also like about the protagonists of P1-2.5 is that they are not Dear Leader of the groups they are in. The other characters only come to rely on you when they need everyone's opinion, and you only tend to lead when given a chance to speak up at certain events. In P1 it makes sense thematically with the Emperor arcana that over time the others rely on you and change their initial assessments of you over the course of the game. If you die in battle, the thing doesn't end because everyone else is so loving dependent on YOU THE SPECIAL ONE that they don't know how to use items or reviving magic anymore. The older games also don't go out of the way to talk about how you, the blank protagonist, are the best most amazing person ever at every opportunity. P3 is in a very weird place regarding that since some scenes treat the protagonist as this life-changing messiah, while the rest of the game he's just hanging out like  and the rest of the party ignores him. Though at least the game makes clear that you're only field leader and that in every other aspect Mitsuru runs the show.
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Oct 16, 2022 21:06
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Gonna go ahead and drop the Worst Opinion itt: P4G and P5R had better intro songs/movies than the originals, but that's all they have going for them over the base games.
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Oct 17, 2022 03:00
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I kinda like vanilla P4's opening more, to be honest. The same way I like the original velvet room theme that allowed for a piano solo section so you could appreciate the voice by contrast and thus being less repetitive.
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Oct 17, 2022 03:17
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Shadow World sucks poo poo. gently caress harmonica's Bob Dylan poo poo
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Oct 17, 2022 03:20
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Shadow World is good. I like Kanji's dance.
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Oct 17, 2022 03:22
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