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Kesper North posted:They really needed to be saying "...and this is just what happens in societies where a fascist ideology really takes hold and remains rooted across multiple generations" because that's what they're describing. It's inherent in fascism. The Russians they're talking about grew up in a brutally abusive, traumatic environment. It reprograms people to behave in the way they're describing. You see the same post-truth, might-makes-right mentality in Trumpists for the same reasons. I'm not sure how you give an entire country the kind of therapy that's needed to heal that. In the case of Germany, you bomb the ever loving poo poo out of it, decapitate the state apparatus, and then divide the country among the conquerors. Then you engage on an in-depth program to rebuild the country without remilitarizing it until such time as friction between the conquerors necessitates it.
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Oct 17, 2022 23:12
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orange juche posted:In the case of Germany, you bomb the ever loving poo poo out of it, decapitate the state apparatus, and then divide the country among the conquerors. Then you engage on an in-depth program to rebuild the country without remilitarizing it until such time as friction between the conquerors necessitates it. Part of that also involves actively retooling the educational system so that the horrible Nazi poo poo isn't allowed to propagate without pushback, and you never let the populace forget what some of them (or their ancestors) have been party to.
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Oct 17, 2022 23:16
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Fearless posted:Part of that also involves actively retooling the educational system so that the horrible Nazi poo poo isn't allowed to propagate without pushback, and you never let the populace forget what some of them (or their ancestors) have been party to. You can see part of this in the difference between Germany and Japan, both had every city larger than a small hamlet razed to the ground via aerial bombardment, but with Japan, the US never actually really made the Japanese populace face up to what they had done to their neighbors. In Germany, Europe and the US literally shipped off every able bodied German for several years and forced them to labor to clean up the mess of the war, to let them know what their war caused. Germany acknowledges that they did terrible things, and it created generational memories about it. Japan, such things are unmentionable or didn't happen.
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Oct 17, 2022 23:22
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orange juche posted:You can see part of this in the difference between Germany and Japan, both had every city larger than a small hamlet razed to the ground via aerial bombardment, but with Japan, the US never actually really made the Japanese populace face up to what they had done to their neighbors. In Germany, Europe and the US literally shipped off every able bodied German for several years and forced them to labor to clean up the mess of the war, to let them know what their war caused. Germany acknowledges that they did terrible things, Japan, such things are unmentionable or didn't happen. Very much so. I worked with some Japanese ESL students around when Pearl Harbor came out and I remember them being utterly devastated after seeing it-- not because the movie was bad (it was) but they could not imagine Japan just ambushing the US like that. Fearless fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Oct 17, 2022 |
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Oct 17, 2022 23:23
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Fearless posted:Part of that also involves actively retooling the educational system so that the horrible Nazi poo poo isn't allowed to propagate without pushback, and you never let the populace forget what some of them (or their ancestors) have been party to. Oh, Cyrano! Where ya at?
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Oct 17, 2022 23:30
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orange juche posted:You can see part of this in the difference between Germany and Japan, both had every city larger than a small hamlet razed to the ground via aerial bombardment, but with Japan, the US never actually really made the Japanese populace face up to what they had done to their neighbors. In Germany, Europe and the US literally shipped off every able bodied German for several years and forced them to labor to clean up the mess of the war, to let them know what their war caused. Germany acknowledges that they did terrible things, and it created generational memories about it. Japan, such things are unmentionable or didn't happen. Except just like reconstruction, denazification was ended way too soon with many former Nazis ending up back in positions of power. https://www.bmj.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Akte_Rosenburg_EN_Geschichtsband_1.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=6  quote:Germany acknowledges that they did terrible things 
AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Oct 17, 2022 |
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Oct 17, 2022 23:34
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Except just like reconstruction, denazification was ended way too soon with many former Nazis ending up back in positions of power. Oh yeah, no they should have made many more Nazis swing from ropes in Germany, but I guess people though it would be too cruel or something. There's a lot of very terrible people who were involved in the Nazi regime who did not face the headsman's axe for what they did. Fearless posted:Very much so. I worked with some Japanese ESL students around when Pearl Harbor came out and I remember them being utterly devastated after seeing it-- not because the movie was bad (it was) but they could not imagine Japan just ambushing the US like that. The thing is what Japan did to the US is *minor* compared to what Japan did to China, or Vietnam, or Korea, or any of the minor Pacific islands. Japan will likely never be able to exist without the US in the Pacific sphere because the instant the US withdraws or gets bored and fucks off, the other countries in the Western Pacific absolutely will take out their knives and get to sharpening, because the memories of Japanese atrocities during WWII are still very vivid in other Asian cultures today, and at the end of the day, humans can still be easily motivated by revenge. The only reason they havent yet is because the US is the 800lb gorrilla on the top of the pecking order, and has no interest in a war kicking off in the Pacific over old grudges. orange juche fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Oct 17, 2022 |
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Oct 17, 2022 23:40
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orange juche posted:Germany acknowledges that they did terrible things, and it created generational memories about it. Japan, such things are unmentionable or didn't happen. I dated a German girl briefly about 5 years ago and she had culture shock at all the  she saw in the US. Her direct quote was "There is no pride in being German." and the only time flags are openly flown there are during events like the World Cup.
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Oct 17, 2022 23:46
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CBJSprague24 posted:I dated a German girl briefly about 5 years ago and she had culture shock at all the Pride in their local football teams which I feel is worse.
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Oct 17, 2022 23:48
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Kesper North posted:They really needed to be saying "...and this is just what happens in societies where a fascist ideology really takes hold and remains rooted across multiple generations" because that's what they're describing. It's inherent in fascism. The Russians they're talking about grew up in a brutally abusive, traumatic environment. It reprograms people to behave in the way they're describing. You see the same post-truth, might-makes-right mentality in Trumpists for the same reasons. I'm not sure how you give an entire country the kind of therapy that's needed to heal that. The only therapy for this is something neither the US nor Russia is willing to offer anymore - substantial investment in social wellbeing. I've said it before, and I'm gonna say it again here - the assholes marching in Charlottesville were there for a *job interview*. They were loudly proclaiming and demonstrating that they are willing to help destroy democracy for the chance to enact revenge on the people "what think they're better than them." There were no Hitlers in that crowd, just a bunch of tower guards and wannabe Eichmanns tired of selling car stereos to people who own a nicer car than they do. Or doing the drywall on a house they could never hope to afford in five lifetimes. They might've been yelling "Blood and Soil" and "Jews Will Not Replace Us," but the true message was "look what I'll do for upward social mobility." You only cure that kind of hate and vitriol by giving them something else to focus on in the form of gainfully rewarding employment. "Sorry, can't storm the Capitol, I've got a good job." "Sorry, can't go kick the poo poo out of [insert the Other of choice here] this weekend, I have discretionary income to do something for *me*." But no one in power in the East or West wants that, because there's too much of an incentive in end-stage  to egg on both sides to fight each other while the billionaires and their enablers/support networks reap the benefits of the last Gilded Age.As for Russian soldiers and atrocity...Russia has been for the last thirty years what the United States will be in another ten - maybe even sooner. Russia doesn't send soldiers to fight wars, Russia sends its soldiers to take out their basest instincts and desire for vengeance on foreign targets. Men who have no agency over any aspect of their lives are put into a warzone and told "go nuts." And they do, because it's the only *freedom* they're actively encouraged to partake in, other than "obey the state" and "drinking is easier than thinking."
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Oct 17, 2022 23:49
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CBJSprague24 posted:I dated a German girl briefly about 5 years ago and she had culture shock at all the Way the hell back in 2006 I was in a journalism master's degree program and one of my classes included a German student whose point boiled down to "but with an inalienable right to free speech, how do you keep the Nazis from coming back?" I understand the perspective a lot better now. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I do get it. BIG HEADLINE posted:The only therapy for this is something neither the US nor Russia is willing to offer anymore - substantial investment in social wellbeing. This is an excellent post.
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Oct 17, 2022 23:52
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BIG HEADLINE posted:The only therapy for this is something neither the US nor Russia is willing to offer anymore - substantial investment in social wellbeing. I wouldn't say Russian soldiers and atrocity will have parallels in the US. Russian culture is built on centuries of suffering that goes back nearly a thousand years. The US is the new kid on the block, and doesn't have quite the levels of inequality stretching back 800 years and *wanton* cruelty towards fellow Americans as there has been in Russian history from the people in power. Russian girl I know said the same, people in the US and Europe just simply do not understand what existence is like for Russian people as a whole, the national psyche of the Russian people is something that is nearly incomprehensible to Westerners, because they didn't grow up in the same system, they don't have the same frame of reference. Literally from that article linked earlier: quote:The cruel culture pervading Russia’s modern army was entrenched during the era of Stalin’s Gulags. It isn’t random, but systematic. Rigid hierarchies, an inability to account for variation, autocrats locked in information bubbles, and, at the same time, a population yearning for autocracy – perhaps the hardest aspect for Westerners to wrap their heads around – have existed in Russia for centuries and will only persist. This kind of writing might bother people who think from an "enlightened" perspective, but those countries and the people in them have spent a thousand years next to a country which doesn't do diplomacy, it takes by force. It's not russophobic to say that the culture of Russia, which knows really nothing other than sorrow and cruelty towards its own people for hundreds of years, at the individual soldier level, that sorrow and cruelty is all they know, and so they act out on civilians and soldiers of countries they invade, did it in WW2, did it in the Soviet Union, did it in Afghanistan, Georgia, Syria, and are doing it now. It's really hard to be nice when your parents (your country/leaders) did not hug you enough. It's actually got a lot of parallels to being in an abusive relationship/DV situation. I don't know how you fix that, hundreds of years of abuse towards your own population is hard to fix. orange juche fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Oct 18, 2022 |
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Oct 17, 2022 23:56
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orange juche posted:I wouldn't say Russian soldiers and atrocity will have parallels in the US. Russian culture is built on centuries of suffering that goes back nearly a thousand years. The US is the new kid on the block, and doesn't have quite the levels of inequality stretching back 800 years and *wanton* cruelty towards fellow Americans as there has been in Russian history from the people in power. We might be the new kid on the block, but I'd argue that we learned from the best (England) on how to "inflict" ourselves on the world, and those are lessons you don't forget. The United States is only quasi-civilized because when we send our troops anywhere, we bring "home" with us. But what happens when that goes away? What happens when the mandate of the US military goes from "try to do some good and minimize collateral damage" to "uphold and maintain the American way of life at all hazards and peril?"
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Oct 18, 2022 00:13
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You really, really don't have to look hard to find Americans killing tens of thousands of civilians, up to hundreds of thousands civilians. So let's not pretend that when the US does it, it's all roses and oopsies. The US just does a lot of that killing from the air.
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Oct 18, 2022 00:20
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BIG HEADLINE posted:We might be the new kid on the block, but I'd argue that we learned from the best (England) on how to "inflict" ourselves on the world, and those are lessons you don't forget. Oh yeah no the US is no paragon of virtue, they just have the biggest club in the room. The US got to where it is by beating the hell out of any and all challengers, and cutthroat geopolitical gamesmanship, and yeah, the US is very good at "inflicting" themselves on other populaces around the world to get what it wants. orange juche fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Oct 18, 2022 |
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Oct 18, 2022 00:21
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BIG HEADLINE posted:The only therapy for this is something neither the US nor Russia is willing to offer anymore - substantial investment in social wellbeing. I like this overall, but I get the feeling that a lot of the people who went to J6 weren't the type of people that were too poor to act out there on their last straw. Hell people were taking in private jets in some examples. I know at no point until my present career stage would I have been able to just take off and go a few states over for a couple of days without severe financial discomfort and calling in favors / burning a lot of goodwill to get time off to do it. Otherwise agreed on all points.
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Oct 18, 2022 01:24
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Lotta cops too - with the largest contingent from Seattle PD
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Oct 18, 2022 01:35
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Fearless posted:Very much so. I worked with some Japanese ESL students around when Pearl Harbor came out and I remember them being utterly devastated after seeing it-- not because the movie was bad (it was) but they could not imagine Japan just ambushing the US like that. Students in China that I taught thought that the Japanese surrender was because China had defeated them a million times to the point where the US was able to sucker punch them with nukes. There was no mention of anything from Pearl Harbor to the day before Hiroshima. Just Nanking -> China has them on the ropes. . . and by "China" they mean Mao, as the contributions of the KMT have essentially been downgraded to, "sort of allies with Japan".
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Oct 18, 2022 01:44
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Yeah, J6 was mainly cops, vets and small buisness tyrants.
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Oct 18, 2022 01:46
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That Works posted:I like this overall, but I get the feeling that a lot of the people who went to J6 weren't the type of people that were too poor to act out there on their last straw. Hell people were taking in private jets in some examples. I know at no point until my present career stage would I have been able to just take off and go a few states over for a couple of days without severe financial discomfort and calling in favors / burning a lot of goodwill to get time off to do it. Otherwise agreed on all points. Yeah. There's a susceptibility there to indoctrination that transcends barriers of class or economics or even "education." The participants in the trucker convoys in Canada are another example: lots of small business owners and people who had the ability to just pack up and camp out (and scream racist slurs at passersby) in the capital, or on the border crossings for weeks at a stretch. Yeah, some of that is seasonally unemployed construction workers or folks without regular work but that is by no means the full extent of the group. Routinely the streams of information that these people access just belch torrents of poo poo they need to be afraid of and angry at now-- all they get is permission and encouragement to be the worst versions of themselves. And it's all aided by a near total lack of critical thinking. Fearless fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Oct 18, 2022 |
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Oct 18, 2022 01:48
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The plan to switch the giant "fluoride" tubs with "fluoxetine" in the water supply and rely on a poor American education system to play it off as a better fluoride looking better and better.
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Oct 18, 2022 01:52
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Blistex posted:Students in China that I taught thought that the Japanese surrender was because China had defeated them a million times to the point where the US was able to sucker punch them with nukes. There was no mention of anything from Pearl Harbor to the day before Hiroshima. Just Nanking -> China has them on the ropes. . . and by "China" they mean Mao, as the contributions of the KMT have essentially been downgraded to, "sort of allies with Japan". A lot of my students didn't know the US was even involved in the war against Japan. Mao beat Japan singlehandedly. I was particularly amused since the school I was at was like... three? kilometers away from the airbase the US operated B-29s out of. I could've walked there on my lunch break. And then gotten arrested.
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Oct 18, 2022 01:53
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orange juche posted:Oh yeah, no they should have made many more Nazis swing from ropes in Germany, but I guess people though it would be too cruel or something. There's a lot of very terrible people who were involved in the Nazi regime who did not face the headsman's axe for what they did. That's not why. The reason was that 50% of the country was now behind the iron curtain and West Germany needed to be rehabilitated ASAP against the future soviet threat; so a lot of middlemen and lower eschlon Nazis who really should have swung, were allowed to carry on, because a cog in the evil machine they may be, but the West needed those cogs. At least West Germany went through SOME form of partial rehabilitation. The East, not so much as the line was always about the harm the Nazis did to USSR and particularly Russia, not because they exterminated a bunch of jews, homosexuals and disabled. The east may have absorbed some of the lessons of West Germany after reunification via osmosis, but I don't think it is/was as deeply entrenched as in West Germany, and lingering soviet/russian influences explain a lot of Germany's poo poo decisions over the last 30 years.
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Oct 18, 2022 02:01
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That Works posted:I like this overall, but I get the feeling that a lot of the people who went to J6 weren't the type of people that were too poor to act out there on their last straw. Hell people were taking in private jets in some examples. I know at no point until my present career stage would I have been able to just take off and go a few states over for a couple of days without severe financial discomfort and calling in favors / burning a lot of goodwill to get time off to do it. Otherwise agreed on all points. The people who participated in 1/6 thought they were doing something that would get them in the history books, and thought there were enough people there to either 1) ensure success, and/or 2) shield them through anonymity if they failed. Never forget that the reason 1/6 *failed* is because it was an attempt at performing a coup *on the cheap*. The Nazis (ultimately) succeeded because they took their time and they ensured they had enough of the bureaucracy in their pockets. Trump just thought a bunch of ~deplorable disposables~ might just be able to do enough. They learned their lesson, though - first with Federal judges, and now with the governors and state election officials. The thing that infuriates me about the passiveness of liberalism is that once the foe is vanquished, they pat themselves on the back and rest on their laurels. Democracy has to do everything right to survive. Fascism only has to win once, and it can lose as many times as it likes. If anything, the more it loses, the more powerful it becomes - from learning from its mistakes and stoking a perceived martyrdom amongst its followers. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Oct 18, 2022 |
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Oct 18, 2022 02:07
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BIG HEADLINE posted:The people who participated in 1/6 thought they were doing something that would get them in the history books, and thought there were enough people there to either 1) ensure success, and/or 2) shield them through anonymity if they failed. The Nazis failed the first time, too.
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Oct 18, 2022 02:14
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Stultus Maximus posted:The Nazis failed the first time, too. There’s such an abundance of released and open source data on how J6 came together that you’d hope that federal law enforcement and DHS did a serious lessons learned/after action review on how to prevent something like this from ever happening again, but at the same time, there’s such an abundance of released and open source data that aspiring J6 part II plotters could do their own lessons learned/AAR to make their next attempt actually stick. It’s the same as imagining a politician with Trump’s demagogic, nationalist public persona while also being good at building coalitions in the Republican Party and wielding the levers of political power. There are no good outcomes awaiting the US if we go down that path.
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Oct 18, 2022 02:24
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pantslesswithwolves posted:There are no good outcomes awaiting the US if we go down that path. I'd argue that there'd be no good outcomes awaiting the world. orange juche fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Oct 18, 2022 |
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Oct 18, 2022 02:32
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pantslesswithwolves posted:There’s such an abundance of released and open source data on how J6 came together that you’d hope that federal law enforcement and DHS did a serious lessons learned/after action review on how to prevent something like this from ever happening again, but at the same time, there’s such an abundance of released and open source data that aspiring J6 part II plotters could do their own lessons learned/AAR to make their next attempt actually stick. Problem is, as recent J6 documents have themselves revealed, federal law enforcement and DHS personnel tend to sympathize with the J6ers. We might just end up with our own siloviki.
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Oct 18, 2022 02:39
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Good thing January 6 happened in the United States and not Ukraine!
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Oct 18, 2022 02:52
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Kesper North posted:Problem is, as recent J6 documents have themselves revealed, federal law enforcement and DHS personnel tend to sympathize with the J6ers. We might just end up with our own siloviki. guillotines do not care for the lofty heights in which its recipients dwell.
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Oct 18, 2022 02:56
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Well, better hope we don't get couped again, then, because the second coup attempt usually succeeds
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Oct 18, 2022 03:02
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Kesper North posted:Well, better hope we don't get couped again, then, because the second coup attempt usually succeeds In the words of a wise man: coup me once, shame on you. Coup me twice... you can't get couped again.
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Oct 18, 2022 03:08
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orange juche posted:I'd argue that there'd be no good outcomes awaiting the world. That's why I can't help but  whenever someone who thinks they have the means to smugs out about "I'll just go to [country/place] if the US goes full fashy."If/when the US goes full fashy, there won't be anywhere to hide. The first world will be forced to ~bend the knee~ and render unto Caesar, and the third world will be slaves.
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Oct 18, 2022 03:29
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BIG HEADLINE posted:That's why I can't help but A fascist is always at war with everything, including themselves. There's never enough. Enough power. Enough wealth. Enough loyalty. Fleeing a major state that becomes fascist may save your life, but it will only buy moments of peace
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Oct 18, 2022 03:33
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BIG HEADLINE posted:That's why I can't help but Yeah the US spends more on its defense budget than the next 10 countries, even allowing for massive contractor kickbacks and grift, that buys multiple times more military might than entire continents, under control of one country. If an honest to god (smart) autocrat gets the levers of power, then there's an incalculable amount of damage they could do to the rest of the world.
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Oct 18, 2022 04:13
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https://twitter.com/arawnsley/status/1582148487092707329 https://twitter.com/Kameron49843998/status/1582155470231379969
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Oct 18, 2022 05:59
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BIG HEADLINE posted:That's why I can't help but look at this non-believer who thinks daddy Xi won't come save us from the risen imperialist menace they will make many animes about the heretofore unseen levels of ML thought he channels to end the era of american darkness and establish the grand new world of one belt, one road, one people under communism
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Oct 18, 2022 06:00
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https://twitter.com/WelshTract/status/1582157395551170560?t=9Qv_3a8Cmzejad-Wt8Pc-w&s=19
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Oct 18, 2022 06:38
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given the job russia's generals are currently doing, blowing too many of them up seems like an all but guaranteed way to make sure that Russia gets more competent people making decisions
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Oct 18, 2022 07:13
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golden bubble posted:https://twitter.com/arawnsley/status/1582148487092707329 Same energy as "you can't use <weapons system X> on personnel, so you gotta say you were aiming for their belt buckle because that's materiel"
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Oct 18, 2022 07:41
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