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One idea for resource management I was debating using for if I ever get my campaign going is using resource die. So for a quiver of arrows you have like a d8, and you roll when you fire and reduce the die size when they roll an 8, etc. Since there's a chance of running out of arrows if they're unlucky let them add the roll to their damage.
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Oct 18, 2022 14:49
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| # ? Jun 4, 2024 05:46 |
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mundane resource management is a really bad mechanic if even a single player does not want mundane resource management in the game. counting arrows for example is wack when spellcasters have unlimited cantrips, managing food is an irrelevant gameplay mechanic with certain spells, etc.
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Oct 18, 2022 14:53
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Our DM doesn't count arrows, but he does make us pay 1gp for restocking when we reach a town - if we don't then one of the random events that can happen is needing to do a hunting sidequest when travelling / resting, or the archer might run out of arrows on a nat 1, etc. Still a bit poo poo, because like you say, wizards have cantrips and fighters never run out of melee attacks, but your archer can suddenly turn absolutely useless mid-fight.
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Oct 18, 2022 15:00
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If fighters needed to repair armors and weapons, and wizards needed a bunch of weird gribbly poo poo to cast even their most basic spells with, it'd at least even out.
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Oct 18, 2022 15:27
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honestly casters having to refuel their arcane foci or keep buying random components in a survival game seems pretty fun for the context. maybe an idea to work with if you want to play such a campaign
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Oct 18, 2022 15:40
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pog boyfriend posted:honestly casters having to refuel their arcane foci or keep buying random components in a survival game seems pretty fun for the context. maybe an idea to work with if you want to play such a campaign Yeah the only way that works is if the DM specifically uses it to build narrative tension in the way that repeated combat encounters, each not difficult on their own slowly strips the players of spell slots and puts abilities on cooldown so when they finally get to restock (finding components, taking a rest, getting to a town with a shop, etc.) that tension is then relieved.
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Oct 18, 2022 16:32
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In nearly 40 years of D&D I don't think I've ever used spell components or been in a group that used them.
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Oct 18, 2022 18:49
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Cessna posted:In nearly 40 years of D&D I don't think I've ever used spell components or been in a group that used them. Do you mean the flavor components, or have you never had to get a diamond to resurrect someone?
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Oct 18, 2022 19:01
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Cessna posted:In nearly 40 years of D&D I don't think I've ever used spell components or been in a group that used them. We had to use them in Out of the Abyss since we fled the prison with literally nothing and couldn't cast half the spells we needed to stay alive (later TPK'ed on a souped up medusa boss)
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Oct 18, 2022 19:11
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Azathoth posted:Yeah the only way that works is if the DM specifically uses it to build narrative tension in the way that repeated combat encounters, each not difficult on their own slowly strips the players of spell slots and puts abilities on cooldown so when they finally get to restock (finding components, taking a rest, getting to a town with a shop, etc.) that tension is then relieved. i am not advocating for this as a thing everyone should do, but if you are trying to make a game set in some sort of dystopic hellhole where mundane attrition is a genuine concern making magic components and the ability to regain your spell slots limited would certainly add to that feeling. either way if you have a game where rust monsters eat peoples swords and archers have to count bullets but wizards can infinitely blast it just makes martials worse for no reason
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Oct 18, 2022 19:44
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Pussy Quipped posted:Do you mean the flavor components, or have you never had to get a diamond to resurrect someone? We never bothered with that. If you knew the spell you could just cast it. I'm not saying it's a bad idea or anything like that, I can see how you could get some fun out of tracking down that diamond or whatever. It just never seemed to come up in games I've played.
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Oct 18, 2022 20:17
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It feels fair enough for things like raise dead where you want there to be a feeling of cost, limitation and gravity to it, but most of the time it just feels punitive in the hands of the wrong DM, or in the case of things like protection from good & evil. Like how summoned familiars are so squishy anyway, requiring 20gp of supplies to resummon it each time is a bit poo poo, and even Matt Mercer has pulled the "this is a small town and they don't have it" bullshit. Also the first quest as a sorcerer I did, I made my theme switching elements with metamagic, so I took Chromatic Orb and then had to wait until we found some gems at the end of the second encounter. Which sucked. Component limitations should be an optional rule if you want to do a hardcore / survival game, not part of the core rules.
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Oct 18, 2022 21:37
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Our DM doesn't count arrows, but he does make us pay 1gp for restocking when we reach a town - if we don't then one of the random events that can happen is needing to do a hunting sidequest when travelling / resting, or the archer might run out of arrows on a nat 1, etc. This is tedious beancounting. As a general rule, players should only need to track the expenditure of interesting, important resources. 1 GP per arrow is video game poo poo, even in OSR-style games. Prison breaks or similar hardscrabble scenarios (Lair Of The Lamb) would be the exception, but I would quit a game where the DM valued my time so poorly as to make me count my arrows. Related, I believe in my bones that a lot of the grog talk about counting torches is exaggeration. This is all part of D&D's natural transition away from a game about resource management. friendlyfire fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Oct 18, 2022 |
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Oct 18, 2022 21:46
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If you want to waive the cost of something low level like Find Familiar or whatever, that is one thing. You can also dole out residuum if you want to get around the material scarcity issue. However, there are so many spells that would be outright broken if you could cast them without consuming a rare material. Imagine being able to cast True Resurrection or Clone multiple times in a day. It would trivialize any real danger associated with adventuring. Death, amongst other long term effects, have to be real consequences with stacking consequences if you want to undo them. There either needs to be a spell level limit wherein valuable components are required or you need some sort of overarching timer to prevent players from simply dipping out, resetting the party, and coming back after a long rest. Of course, all of that only matters for a campaign. If you're playing a one shot or whatever, fun is more important than accountability. friendlyfire posted:This is tedious beancounting. As a general rule, players should only need to track the expenditure of interesting, important resources. 1 GP per arrow is video game poo poo, even in OSR-style games. Prison breaks or similar hardscrabble scenarios (Lair Of The Lamb) would be the exception, but I would quit a game where the DM valued my time so poorly as to make me count my arrows. Related, I believe in my bones that a lot of the grog talk about counting torches is exaggeration. The way I read it was that the DM simply requires every player to spend 1 GP to fully restock on everything in the pack. Is that not accurate?
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Oct 18, 2022 21:48
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Bobby Deluxe posted:It feels fair enough for things like raise dead where you want there to be a feeling of cost, limitation and gravity to it, but most of the time it just feels punitive in the hands of the wrong DM, or in the case of things like protection from good & evil. It helps to balance with martials if it costs 5-10k gp worth of stuff to fire off a 5th or 6th level spell. Wizards may be able to bend time and invert space, but they can't do it very often.
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Oct 18, 2022 21:49
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To clarify, that's 1gp considered to cover all arrows, rations, and any other 'consumables' a crunchy DM would ask you to track like how full your waterskin is etc. 1gp per arrow would be derranged, I agree.
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Oct 18, 2022 21:51
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Bobby Deluxe posted:To clarify, that's 1gp considered to cover all arrows, rations, and any other 'consumables' a crunchy DM would ask you to track like how full your waterskin is etc. 1gp per arrow would be derranged, I agree. I don't mean this to sound confrontational, but is that not still a waste of your time to track? Either it's a significant amount and worth tracking, ala "I'm building a castle" or it's insignificant accounting and not worth even the microsecond it takes to adjust your character sheet.
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Oct 18, 2022 21:54
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Bobby Deluxe posted:To clarify, that's 1gp considered to cover all arrows, rations, and any other 'consumables' a crunchy DM would ask you to track like how full your waterskin is etc. 1gp per arrow would be derranged, I agree. asking "how full your waterskin is" is really below the level of D&D logistics 99% of the time even in logistics-heavy games. i ran a campaign recently where the players had an actual spreadsheet to track the consumption of food and water by their wagon train of valuable horses and i never asked that question even though buying water at settlements was a huge thing.
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Oct 18, 2022 21:58
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friendlyfire posted:This is tedious beancounting. As a general rule, players should only need to track the expenditure of interesting, important resources. 1 GP per arrow is video game poo poo, even in OSR-style games. Prison breaks or similar hardscrabble scenarios (Lair Of The Lamb) would be the exception, but I would quit a game where the DM valued my time so poorly as to make me count my arrows. Related, I believe in my bones that a lot of the grog talk about counting torches is exaggeration. im not exactly sure why i got quoted here lol. im agreeing with your point for the most part. but i think there are people who genuinely get a lot of value out of this style of play. its not me but its somebody
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Oct 18, 2022 21:58
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friendlyfire posted:I don't mean this to sound confrontational, but is that not still a waste of your time to track? Either it's a significant amount and worth tracking, ala "I'm building a castle" or it's insignificant accounting and not worth even the microsecond it takes to adjust your character sheet. Do you feel the same about PCs having to pay for rooms at an inn?
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Oct 18, 2022 22:01
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Zurreco posted:Do you feel the same about PCs having to pay for rooms at an inn? Unless it is part of some kind of homebrewed rest mechanic, of course. Especially in 5e, which does not really lean on economics. The decision to stay at the inn or not costs so little that it is essentially a story decision, except that you also need to go adjust your character sheet like some sort of medieval accountant.
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Oct 18, 2022 22:12
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friendlyfire posted:I don't mean this to sound confrontational, but is that not still a waste of your time to track? Either it's a significant amount and worth tracking, ala "I'm building a castle" or it's insignificant accounting and not worth even the microsecond it takes to adjust your character sheet. He also has mental health struggles and hasn't been doing it for very long, so I think he panics a little over if he's doing well, and that sometimes comes out in a very strict adherence to the rules.
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Oct 18, 2022 22:18
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For me as a player, the problem with book-keeping is like, if we don't have a "home base" or are constantly on the move but not on a boat that's also a home; then we can't take anything big with us. And if I collect a bunch of knickknacks, then by the weight rules by -1 strength mod character is NOT at all able to carry everything; which is frustrating when I want to hoard and collect things I come across. So if the DM isn't consistently checking in on our item management then that adds to the frustration if its been a year since the last time it mattered but now suddenly it does? If we do have a homebase of sorts, and its very consistently applied, then I think bookkeeping can actually be a part of the fun, because you're trying to carry as much loot and dungeoneering equipment as needed so you can make as much dollar as you can while also staying alive. That's a puzzle, and thus gameplay and thus fun. I think if you're used to it, have tools or a system like a excel based character sheet that's easy to add in things to auto-calculate things for you, and its expected and everyone does it; then it I think can be fine and fun. But not when it isn't a core part of your gameplay loop.
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Oct 18, 2022 22:29
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friendlyfire posted:This is all part of D&D's natural transition away from a game about resource management. The sad part for me is that the pseudo-realism-(but-not-really)-weight-system stuff displaces a potentially-actually-interesting-but-more-abstract resource system. Maybe, like, some slots - like in the new XCOM games? For example, maybe you're a weak old wizard, so you get 2 extra equipment slots. If you want to bring the Eye of Scooby-Doo to empower your Virile Ice Dicks, then you'll have to pick between your Glowing Orb and your Palantir. And you can make that decision without a spreadsheet. (And, to be clear, there's no slots for tents or food or bedding because that doesn't generally make for interesting decisions). I think resource decisions like this could be fun in normal play, if they weren't so much work. Before you enter a dungeon you have to decide what you're going to bring in, you can't bring all the stuff you want, and depending on your choices you might have or miss options later. DMs have a new dial to spin - like, if it's a real tight cave, maybe you get one less slot? Or you can have a wolf companion, but if you instead have an alpaca instead you get 2 bonus equipment slots - and that feels important, like you're more versatile now, or can carry an extra potion? And because you're actually maybe going to use this system in regular play, the bard that happens to have high STR actually feels like they can bring more stuff in an interesting way. But as it stands, with the weights, I think it'd be very hard to make these decisions play out as anything other than arbitrary-feeling tedium. In use cases where D&D has moved to sort of a "slot" abstraction - that's produced design space they can use. If cast times and reactions and weapon reload times and "standing up" were all measured in seconds, it'd be a weird old chart that got laughed at. Instead, it uses slots, and that's a big reason why the "action economy" works as a core design space in the game. Edit: wait... maybe you do use an equipment slot for bedding/food/etc... but it's specifically "one long rest worth of supplies"? Now you have a simple economy to limit long rests during a "mission". And if you have tiny characters, one of their perks is they can "share" a rest's worth of supplies with a bigger character? Anyway... I don't have some huge point here... other than that I'd love it if D&D supported more simple, "gamey" decisions more. jmzero fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Oct 18, 2022 |
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Oct 18, 2022 22:36
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I never liked bookkeeping as a DM. I don’t really care about weight, gold, components, etc within reason. I have had players that did enjoy that aspect and I just told them that’s awesome that you want to keep track of that. Looks like it’s your job now!
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Oct 18, 2022 23:07
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Whether you track arrows or pay money to buy food at the tavern depends on your level and situation. A Level 0 peasant adventure is going to care about every arrow and ration, but a 10th level dungeon crawl into the Pits of the Dark King does not need to bother
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Oct 18, 2022 23:48
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Raenir Salazar posted:For me as a player, the problem with book-keeping is like, if we don't have a "home base" or are constantly on the move but not on a boat that's also a home; then we can't take anything big with us. And if I collect a bunch of knickknacks, then by the weight rules by -1 strength mod character is NOT at all able to carry everything; which is frustrating when I want to hoard and collect things I come across. So if the DM isn't consistently checking in on our item management then that adds to the frustration if its been a year since the last time it mattered but now suddenly it does? Or you beg and plead and cajole the DM into letting you buy (or find) a bag of holding or similar, which is how things play out in my groups usually. I've never played with a group interested in realism where they need to check weights and ensure they're not encumbered, and I'm fine with it because leaving behind loot is one of the least fun things you can ask a player to do. Like, oh yeah you just won a big fight but oops you got too much gold. Do you know how much a +1 sword weighs? Well consult this handy chart... If I tried to do that, everyone would roll their eyes and the first gold they spend after weapons and armor would be on something to obviate having to worry about that poo poo.
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Oct 19, 2022 00:08
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Raenir Salazar posted:And if I collect a bunch of knickknacks, then by the weight rules by -1 strength mod character is NOT at all able to carry everything; which is frustrating when I want to hoard and collect things I come across. So if the DM isn't consistently checking in on our item management then that adds to the frustration if its been a year since the last time it mattered but now suddenly it does? I think a Bag of Holding or a Portable Hole address this directly, but I understand that that relies on the DM to make those available to you. jmzero posted:The sad part for me is that the pseudo-realism-(but-not-really)-weight-system stuff displaces a potentially-actually-interesting-but-more-abstract resource system. Morkborg has an inventory slot system that sounds like what you're getting at. You get a set amount and your weapon, armor, etc take those slots, but you can also carry X rations or other nonessential items in your leftover slots.
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Oct 19, 2022 00:32
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Rutibex posted:This wasn't the case back in the 3.5e days. All of the players had a stack of splat books to min/max their characters. I imagine Pathfinder players have a lot more books than 5e players. Players will buy books to get more options, but this isn't exactly the best way to design a good game. For Pathfinder 2e this isn't the case at all since all the player-facing material is free to players. There are people out there playing Hobgoblin Thaumaturges with a Marshal free archetype who own none of the Lost Omens Character Guide or the Dark Archive or the Advanced Player's Guide or the Gamemastery Guide (sources for all those elements) because the rules on how to do all that stuff is free online in a readable package with the permission of the creators.
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Oct 19, 2022 06:22
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pog boyfriend posted:i am not advocating for this as a thing everyone should do, but if you are trying to make a game set in some sort of dystopic hellhole where mundane attrition is a genuine concern making magic components and the ability to regain your spell slots limited would certainly add to that feeling. either way if you have a game where rust monsters eat peoples swords and archers have to count bullets but wizards can infinitely blast it just makes martials worse for no reason If it bugs you and you want more equality just remove combat cantrips and have casters go back to throwing darts and sling bullets between real spells. Combat cantrips are kinda dumb anyway. At 5th level they do more damage than many 1st and 2nd level spells. Or give 'em a fixed number of cantrip spell slots per day. 2 per level? I assume they were introduced to deal with the problem where a level 1 magic user casts his 2 spells and then has nothing to do for the rest of the day. But there was nothing really wrong with them using simple ranged weapons instead.
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Oct 19, 2022 06:56
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It's level dependent. Small expenses and weight management are more initial levels stuff.Facebook Aunt posted:I assume they were introduced to deal with the problem where a level 1 magic user casts his 2 spells and then has nothing to do for the rest of the day. But there was nothing really wrong with them using simple ranged weapons instead. YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Oct 19, 2022 |
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Oct 19, 2022 07:02
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Facebook Aunt posted:If it bugs you and you want more equality just remove combat cantrips and have casters go back to throwing darts and sling bullets between real spells. Combat cantrips are kinda dumb anyway. At 5th level they do more damage than many 1st and 2nd level spells. Combat cantrips are absolutly insane and their existance should warp the setting into Xmen instead of fantasy middle ages. Flamebolt does a d10 of damage at 120ft AT WILL. 1d10 damage will easily kill any normal person in a single hit. An old school wizard could kill a peasant with magic missle, but then he is out of spells and is gonna be killed by a mob. A first level 5e wizard can sling Flamebolts from a hill all day and snipe entire villages.
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Oct 19, 2022 10:14
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A 1st level fighter can do 1d8+DEX with a longbow at 150ft. At the low price of 1 gp every 20 shots.
YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Oct 19, 2022 |
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Oct 19, 2022 10:27
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I have a headcanon that magic initiate is like those Blackstone magic kits you could buy as a kid, where you learn a few card tricks and there's that plastic genie bottle with the rubber ball in it; except deadly and completely irresponsible to sell to a fighter with 6 int who, in a level's time, will be able to deal 2d10 fire damage at range every six seconds.
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Oct 19, 2022 13:39
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why is the fighter not attacking with a bow. dealing 2x(1d8+DEX) at range every six seconds.
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Oct 19, 2022 13:52
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YggdrasilTM posted:why is the fighter not attacking with a bow. dealing 2x(1d8+DEX) at range every six seconds. not having dexterity?
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Oct 19, 2022 13:54
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pog boyfriend posted:not having dexterity? why not is he a rock I mean, it's better to spend a feat and requiring MAD for mental stats Or just having DEX 12 YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Oct 19, 2022 |
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Oct 19, 2022 13:56
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YggdrasilTM posted:why not maybe the player wants to play a low dexterity armoured fighter who uses magic
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Oct 19, 2022 14:15
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pog boyfriend posted:maybe the player wants to play a low dexterity armoured fighter who uses magic Then a player made a deliberate build decision that makes a normally suboptimal option work. I don't see why firebolt is a problem. YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Oct 19, 2022 |
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Oct 19, 2022 14:15
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Can you unplug the calulator mod for a second and just appreciate that not everything is about making optimisation choices? It's a joke. The joke is that it's irresponsible to sell fire magic the way you sell magic kits to kids. Am I going insane?
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Oct 19, 2022 15:11
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