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A follow up to the question about wrestlers who have had both 5* and -5* matches. Which wrestlers have had matches where the participants are the same but the ratings are so drastically different. Ones that spring to mind are Lesnar vs Goldberg and Chris Harris vs James Storm (the blindfold match followed by the Texas death match although the stipulations don't exactly make that a fair comparison). Are there any notable ones that have a massive gap in the ratings between matches?
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Oct 14, 2022 15:54
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Bray Wyatt vs John Cena’s cage match was 1.75 and the LMS match a month later was 4.5
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Oct 14, 2022 15:58
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Hoss Corncave posted:A follow up to the question about wrestlers who have had both 5* and -5* matches. Which wrestlers have had matches where the participants are the same but the ratings are so drastically different. Ones that spring to mind are Lesnar vs Goldberg and Chris Harris vs James Storm (the blindfold match followed by the Texas death match although the stipulations don't exactly make that a fair comparison). In 1992 Chono vs Rude in New Japan got ****1/2 in the G1 and then at Halloween Havoc got -***. In between Chono suffered a neck injury that he came back too early from. The WCW match also had a really bad finish.
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Oct 14, 2022 16:09
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Hoss Corncave posted:A follow up to the question about wrestlers who have had both 5* and -5* matches. Which wrestlers have had matches where the participants are the same but the ratings are so drastically different. Ones that spring to mind are Lesnar vs Goldberg and Chris Harris vs James Storm (the blindfold match followed by the Texas death match although the stipulations don't exactly make that a fair comparison). Hogan/Warrior 1 got a ***¾ from Dave. We all know how he felt about the second match.
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Oct 14, 2022 16:13
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What's the history behind summer becoming tournament season in puro? It seems like June to August is nothing but block & single-elim tournaments now in every promotion, but I don't remember it always being like that.
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Oct 17, 2022 01:02
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Since the staff of Vice are too busy shooting heroin to fix their client authentication servers, is there somewhere else to watch Tales from the Territores?
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Oct 17, 2022 13:27
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EdsTeioh posted:Since the staff of Vice are too busy shooting heroin to fix their client authentication servers, is there somewhere else to watch Tales from the Territores? Have you checked Archive.org? That's honestly a good spot to check when looking for videos https://archive.org/details/tales-from-the-territories-s-01-e-01-memphis-where-wrestling-was-real And https://archive.org/details/tales-from-the-territories-s-01-e-02-andy-kaufman-vs-the-king-of-memphis For episodes 1 & 2
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Oct 17, 2022 13:57
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forkboy84 posted:Have you checked Archive.org? That's honestly a good spot to check when looking for videos aw hell yes
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Oct 17, 2022 14:26
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Bonk posted:What's the history behind summer becoming tournament season in puro? It seems like June to August is nothing but block & single-elim tournaments now in every promotion, but I don't remember it always being like that. it’s all part of the tournament tournament, where tournaments collide all summer long in order to crown the best tournament of the year, i assume
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Oct 17, 2022 17:19
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Kvlt! posted:Where can I watch/stream ECW? Peacock only has it edited. There's a YouTube channel called Wrestling Reaper who has old episodes of Hardcore TV uploaded. I don't think they have everything but it's a place to start and I don't think anything is edited
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Oct 17, 2022 18:35
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Hoss Corncave posted:A follow up to the question about wrestlers who have had both 5* and -5* matches. Which wrestlers have had matches where the participants are the same but the ratings are so drastically different. Ones that spring to mind are Lesnar vs Goldberg and Chris Harris vs James Storm (the blindfold match followed by the Texas death match although the stipulations don't exactly make that a fair comparison). HHH/Undertaker got ****1/2 at Mania 27 and ****3/4 at Mania 28 and 1/2* at KOTR 2002, but that's probably cheating.
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Oct 18, 2022 03:02
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Yeah I imagine if you look hard enough then some combination of "people being 20 years older/someone having a career-ruining injury" will produce great results I kept thinking there was a Brian Pillman WCW-to-WWF rematch that would fit the bill
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Oct 19, 2022 00:47
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Hoss Corncave posted:A follow up to the question about wrestlers who have had both 5* and -5* matches. Which wrestlers have had matches where the participants are the same but the ratings are so drastically different. Ones that spring to mind are Lesnar vs Goldberg and Chris Harris vs James Storm (the blindfold match followed by the Texas death match although the stipulations don't exactly make that a fair comparison). Sting Wrestled a ****3/4 with flair and a * with the Black Scorpion...
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Oct 19, 2022 03:25
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You only have to go back to 2020 to see Matt Hardy and Sammy Guevara face off in a MOTY runner-up (Stadium Stampede) and a WMOTY runner-up (Full Gear),, though Meltzer didn't give either match a star rating. The Rude vs. Chono matches in 1992 looks like it might be the only time that two individuals wrestled two singles matches that ended up as runners-up for both best and worst match of the year in the Observer Awards, though that same year there were things similar to Hardy/Sammy (Sting vs. Cactus Jack on the MOTY list, Chamber of Horrors Match featuring Sting/Cactus on opposing teams in WMOTY) There's also Chris Jericho and Jon Moxley, who had the consensus worst match of Extreme Rules 2016 (**, but came in second behind only that Rebel vs. Shelley match for WMOTY in the Observer Awards), and all of their other singles matches (in both WWE and AEW) have been between 3.75 and 4.75 stars and are all generally considered Very Good. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Oct 19, 2022 |
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Oct 19, 2022 05:55
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What does STF stand for?
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Oct 19, 2022 06:18
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Elephant Ambush posted:What does STF stand for? Step-over toehold facelock
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Oct 19, 2022 06:50
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Elephant Ambush posted:What does STF stand for? Stepover toehold facelock, although the part where it's also a leg submission has been kind of left behind in favor of camera-friendly choking.
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Oct 19, 2022 06:50
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Until Jungle Boy started doing it at least. The boy is crisp. Question for Joshi fans who understand Japanese: Is Riho any good at promos in Japanese?
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Oct 19, 2022 08:01
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ChrisBTY posted:Until Jungle Boy started doing it at least. The boy is crisp. My Japanese isn't fantastic but I don't think I've ever seen her cut an actual promo? Like at Gatoh Move, the wrestlers would sit around in a circle after the shown and talk about their matches and set up matches for any big ring show stuff afterwards but it was more like a group discussion than a traditional promo. Maybe she cut some in TJPW but I only started watching at the tail end of her being a regular there.
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Oct 19, 2022 08:29
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Riho has cut some promos for AEW's Road To stuff with English subtitles. Not understanding the language, her delivery seems fine but nothing that'll blow you away.
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Oct 19, 2022 13:38
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Following up on the language barrier question, wrestlers who don’t speak much of a mutual language will use body language and pantomiming with some basic universal wrestling terms to lay out spots or sequences ahead of the match.
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Oct 19, 2022 15:58
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Dame el iggy por favor
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Oct 19, 2022 16:04
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What is the difference in American Wrestling storytelling and Japanese wrestling story telling? I've never watched Japanese wrestling but is it basically the same? Faces and heels feud a few weeks and blow it off in a match or is it different? Do you see the same kind of tropes?
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Oct 19, 2022 16:06
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RenegadeStyle1 posted:What is the difference in American Wrestling storytelling and Japanese wrestling story telling? I've never watched Japanese wrestling but is it basically the same? Faces and heels feud a few weeks and blow it off in a match or is it different? Do you see the same kind of tropes? i'd say just go watch a bunch of highly-rated matches to try to answer it for yourself because that's the easiest way to get down to what you mean, but your question does really rely on both what you mean by 'storytelling' (promos? in-ring work? long-running storylines? characters?) and what you mean by 'american wrestling' (just the WWE, with its very specific house style? AEW, which brings in different styles from around the world? outside the US, like in Mexico?)
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Oct 19, 2022 16:17
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Barry Bluejeans posted:Dame el iggy por favor lol
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Oct 19, 2022 16:25
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RenegadeStyle1 posted:What is the difference in American Wrestling storytelling and Japanese wrestling story telling? I've never watched Japanese wrestling but is it basically the same? Faces and heels feud a few weeks and blow it off in a match or is it different? Do you see the same kind of tropes? Generally the bigger promotions have a more sports-like feel, so you'll see long-term rivalries build up more in the background as the same competitors keep fighting each other over the years, with commentary keeping track of how many times Wrestler A has beaten Wrestler B, how Wrestler B wants to shift that balance, etc. There are also far fewer big-spectacle stipulation matches, like "I hate you so much that I want you...IN A STEEL CAGE!" It's usually just straight-up wrestling matches unless you're watching a niche deathmatch promotion or something. Promos aren't usually long in-ring productions throughout the show. They're usually post-match victory speeches in the ring, or short backstage media segments about what's next for the winner/loser. You'll almost never get the roaming cameras catching backstage drama and locker room brawls like in the US. Occasionally someone will come out to interrupt a promo, but it's usually for a challenge to a belt. Feud-wise, it usually doesn't get nearly as soapy as American-style drama unless there's a direct betrayal, which can ramp up the intensity of big matches. But even then, it's usually just to inform a character change or a major event - they're not as heavily focused on grudge matches. Even when they have them, it's often because both have the same goal to get a title shot or win a tournament, not just having a match because they hate each other. Like a perfect recent example is in Stardom where Suzu Suzuki came into the promotion to confront Giulia, who (IRL) left Ice Ribbon a few years ago without telling anyone she was leaving, and how much pain that caused Suzuki. It's personal, but it didn't culminate in a big stipulation PPV match. It was part of an annual tournament for a title shot. But that story will come up again in the future whenever they cross paths again. Bonk fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Oct 19, 2022 |
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Oct 19, 2022 19:17
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Bonk posted:This is a broad question, but the overall presentation is pretty different. Thanks for this! It's really appreciated. I was wondering about what more wrestling I could watch and was thinking of NJPW but I didn't know the culture. Not what was happening or what the story was, but what the template of the sport was. This really helps!
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Oct 19, 2022 19:32
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Bonk posted:This is a broad question, but the overall presentation is pretty different. But also it's worth adding that this all varies wildly from promotion to promotion. Dragongate are pretty big on in-ring segments & more traditional angles than you'd get in Giant Baba era All Japan for example. Although there's definitely less of the traditional booking in the major groups these days, New Japan are obviously very influenced by Memphis wrestling because Gedo, Jado & Togo love it, I don't even know how to describe NOAH booking because it's a weird mix of mostly pretty serious & almost Inokiist in the Heavyweight division but with the Juniors being much more chaotic with people jumping from stable to stable every 8 seconds & it all being a bit of a mess. Partly that may be to cover up for the lack of talent in the division, because well, HAYATA, but part of it is NOSAWA is weird. RenegadeStyle1 posted:What is the difference in American Wrestling storytelling and Japanese wrestling story telling? I've never watched Japanese wrestling but is it basically the same? Faces and heels feud a few weeks and blow it off in a match or is it different? Do you see the same kind of tropes? There's definitely some tropes that are the same but sometimes with a slightly different spin. Like bonk says, there's not the same sort of backstage angles. Honestly, that's one of the bonuses for me as a non-Japanese speaker, if Japanese wrestling was exactly like American TV wrestling then it'd be nearly impossible to follow without either knowledge of the language or some sort of translation, either by a commentator or someone tweeting. As it is, the promos aren't usually "complicated" stuff like the promoter's daughter being kidnapped by The Undertaker & then "it was me Austin, it was me all along", someone wins their match & either thanks the crowd for coming out & either challenges someone or someone else comes out to challenge them & that's all pretty easy to follow. Even with the talkier promotions like Dragongate. A lot of the storytelling happens in the match itself: wrestler A & B fought before and had a killer tough match for the title, the next time out, wrestler B has the answer to what worked for A last time to beat him, so there's callbacks & almost riffs (in a musical sense) that you don't need to really know the past of to appreciate the match but that if you do know it only adds to the match. The Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Kazuchika Okada rivalry in New Japan is one of the better examples of this sort of storytelling, over the course of a decade from Okada returning from excursion him & Tana went back & forth over who the top guy, the face of the company is. They've only faced off 15 times in singles matches, 8 times in Heavyweight title matches, 5 times in the G1 tournament, once in a number 1 contenders match & once when Okada was still a young boy, a couple of days before he left Japan to go to America on a learning excursion. Essentially all the matches in their rivalry happened between 2012 & 2019, by which time Tanahashi was getting into his 40s & was clearly not in Okada's class anymore. I think actually biggest difference from American wrestling is the preponderance of multiman tags. Big singles matches tend to be saved for bigger shows, which means that singles matches stay fresher. But also mean that if you watch every show leading up to one of the big shows you'll see a 6 man tag with Wrestle A & his 2 stablemates against Wrestler B & his 2 stablemates. I'll give you the example from All Japan because that's the promotion I watch the closest right now: Their February tour, Excite Series, was capped off with a show at Korakuen Hall which had 4 of the 5 titles in the company defended, Triple Crown, World Tag Titles, TV Title & Junior Title. To take the Tag belts as an example, Runaway Suplex defended against KumaDoi, the first night of the tour in Osaka had singles matches between both halves of the teams, with KumaDoi winning both matches. Next was a show in a smaller Tokyo venue, with Runaway Suplex & Hikaru Sato (a stablemate of Suwama, 1 half of Runaway Suplex) against a Total Eclipse trio of Kuma Arashi, Koji Doi & Hokuto Omori. The 4th night of the tour KumaDoi aren't booked (as they are non-contracted talent so don't always appear on every show) so Ashino beats a junior comedy wrestler in a singles match & Suwama tags with Eclipse stablemates Hikaru Sato & Dan Tamura against NEXTREAM & SUGI, which is a preview for SUGI vs Hikaru Sato. Night 5 is the Korakuen show, after they have the match Ryuki Honda comes out & attacks Ashino to challenge him to a singles match (they'd been having a bit of a rivalry & Honda is also in the same stable as KumaDoi), which ends up being a Last Man Standing match. What this means is that depending on your investment in the ongoing stories & rivalries & the wrestlers you can skip those smaller shows that lead up to the equivalent of a Pay Per View. For example I'm at a point where I am very picky on what New Japan matches I watch, partly because I think the booking of their undercard multiman tags has gotten very lazy, partly because I also think the booking in general isn't what it was. But there was a time where I watched everything they broadcast & it does increase the enjoyment of certain big matches having engaged with the almost teases you get on the Road To/house shows. Where as I'm very invested in All Japan & watch everything they broadcast. When I watch Dragongate I watch every one of their big shows, every monthly Korakuen Hall show, & occasionally some of their smaller shows, especially if there's a title match. Ultimately you can choose how invested you want to be, which I find different from watching American wrestling where if you don't keep up with the weekly TV you miss out on something.
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Oct 19, 2022 20:28
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It's also worth noting that Japanese promotions work on a touring schedule rather than a weekly show like Dynamite or Raw, so sometimes you get shows every other day and sometimes it can be a gap of couple of weeks. The G1 for example is usually around 20 shows crammed into 5 weeks before the performers get a bit of time to rest, but that can also lead to cool self contained stories like: - Moxley going on a tear to begin 5-0 before losing via countout to Toru Yano and having his confidence shattered, losing the rest of his matches - Okada refusing to use his Rainmaker finisher to win because he's a petulant child, gradually getting more desperate and resorting to flash pins to get by
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Oct 19, 2022 20:44
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Where would you start watching now? Say you're a baby wresting fan and just want to watch a show, whose weekly show (in English) would you start watching with the next card? You've already got AEW and WWE in rotation but you want some Japan? Edit: I guess my presumption of weekly shows was wrong. What would you start watching now?
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Oct 19, 2022 20:48
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Mrenda posted:Where would you start watching now? Start watching the Stardom 5 Star GP.
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Oct 19, 2022 20:58
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Just get a wrestle universe subscription and watch whatever you like the look of, because there are too many options and invariably someone is going to tell you to watch one of the many WU promotions.
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Oct 19, 2022 20:58
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It's such a hard question to answer since every promotion caters to a slightly different audience, some people love Dragon Gate but it does nothing for me, while I really enjoy DDT which can be very hit or miss with people. New Japan probably has the most English support (although not every show especially for the smaller tours) excepting maybe Dragon Gate but their viewing situation is weird. Something like GLEAT have pretty much all their shows on YouTube for free but the English support is basically nonexistent, the action there is superb but you'll have little help figuring out who is who and what's going on. NOAH is also worth mentioning as a promotion that has English commentary on a lot of shows because their announcers live over there, but the booking is so infuriating that I've dropped all bar a couple of matches from them. MassRafTer posted:Start watching the Stardom 5 Star GP. Also this, I'm not a stardom fan but their shows all have English subtitles, at the cost of very few of them being available live
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Oct 19, 2022 21:01
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Mrenda posted:Where would you start watching now? Well, when I started watching current Japanese wrestling it was the year that Chris Jericho first turned up in New Japan. 2018 I think? I'd read about the build & everything & so I just subbed on January 1st to New Japan World & jumped straight in on the biggest show of the year for their company. That was just the bit that sounded cool to me. The only thing I would say is that Japanese streaming services charge you on the 1st of the month, regardless of when you sign up. So if you sign up on the 30th October you will be charged for the full month on 30th October & then again on 1st November. Which sucks but is what it is. Really, what I'd say is just check out a couple of matches from companies & see what clicks. For example watch the G1 Final from this year, Okada vs Ospreay. Check out the amazing Dragongate Tag match from 30th July, Higuchi vs Takeshita from DDT last month, Nakajima vs Shiozaki from NOAH, Miyahara vs Aoyagi from May in All Japan, El Lindaman vs Irie from GLEAT. Like deathmatches? There's been some wild & amazing deathmatches this year, like El Desperado vs Jun Kasai is GW Bushi's match of the year, but also it's a brutal bloodbath. Jon Moxley probably liked it. Also, we have a dedicated Japanese wrestling thread, the Puroresu News, Results & Analysis, it's not very busy, everyone is pretty friendly & chill & delighted to just recommend it. Plus I post a list of the shows you can watch & where to watch them every week, with the cards where available & people will always be willing to recommend stuff. New Japan are the biggest, they have most shows with English commentary & a lot of names that a AEW fan will recognise at least a little, so that's pretty approachable. I have my problems with it but big time New Japan matches still rule. I think All Japan have had a tremendous year but they also have a small roster, it's basically an indie & everything isn't great. Plus there's no commentary in English. But I dunno, they have a lot of exciting young talent. Dragongate is a fun promotion if you enjoy fast-paced high-flying action, very junior heavyweight in style. They have English commentary at least one show a month from Jae who started doing a DG fansite 2+ decades ago, & Ho Ho Lun who you might remember from the WWE's Cruiserweight Classic, & occasionally some of the Japanese talent jump in & struggle to talk English which is charming. But their streaming service is 500 Yen more than all the others which makes it a hard recommendation unless you really dig DG. GLEAT is really easy to follow because every show is on Youtube (well, almost, couple of exceptions) they have a fascinating mixed roster with some ex-Dragongate wrestlers who bring that style, some shootstyle guys (which is MMA influenced), it's really fun, I'm a huge fan of GLEAT. And then there's Wrestle Universe. You get NOAH who deliver a lot of stiff, hard-hitting action. DDT who have some incredible wrestlers. TJPW which is enjoyable womens wrestling, it's hard to argue with the value for money.
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Oct 19, 2022 21:17
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for real, Wrestle Universe and then watching the big shows which should have english comms until it clicks is great value.
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Oct 19, 2022 21:22
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forkboy84 posted:New Japan are the biggest, they have most shows with English commentary & a lot of names that a AEW fan will recognise at least a little, so that's pretty approachable. I have my problems with it but big time New Japan matches still rule. I think All Japan have had a tremendous year but they also have a small roster, it's basically an indie & everything isn't great. Plus there's no commentary in English. But I dunno, they have a lot of exciting young talent. Dragongate is a fun promotion if you enjoy fast-paced high-flying action, very junior heavyweight in style. They have English commentary at least one show a month from Jae who started doing a DG fansite 2+ decades ago, & Ho Ho Lun who you might remember from the WWE's Cruiserweight Classic, & occasionally some of the Japanese talent jump in & struggle to talk English which is charming. But their streaming service is 500 Yen more than all the others which makes it a hard recommendation unless you really dig DG. GLEAT is really easy to follow because every show is on Youtube (well, almost, couple of exceptions) they have a fascinating mixed roster with some ex-Dragongate wrestlers who bring that style, some shootstyle guys (which is MMA influenced), it's really fun, I'm a huge fan of GLEAT. And then there's Wrestle Universe. You get NOAH who deliver a lot of stiff, hard-hitting action. DDT who have some incredible wrestlers. TJPW which is enjoyable womens wrestling, it's hard to argue with the value for money. What's the Japanese for smörgåsbord?
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Oct 19, 2022 21:26
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Mrenda posted:Where would you start watching now? Wikipedia actually has a pretty good list of what's considered major & minor. Some promotions have a mix of serious & comedy wrestling, some are more Cruiserweight focused, some have a lot of deathmatches, so it depends what you want. Women's wrestling is dope as hell and often surpasses men in quality. To forkboy's point about Road To shows, most promotions have a whole different schedule format. Rather than weekly TV shows in big arenas, most promotions' bigger events are supported by tours in small venues, with slightly bigger shows 1-2x/month at Korakuen Hall in Tokyo (which is still only <2000 capacity), and only big PPVs are saved for large arenas. Summer was tournament season, which is a great way to dip in and get more familiar with most big promotions' individual wrestlers (less so with factions though). NJPW's G1 Climax, Dragongate's King of Gate, Stardom's 5* Grand Prix, NOAH's N-Innovation, AJPW's Royal Road, TJPW's Princess Cup, all happened over the summer. Aside from those, GLEAT is pretty new, and it's a fun mix of men's & women's wrestling and worked-MMA. It's also totally free (so far) on Youtube.
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Oct 19, 2022 22:34
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Japanese promotions will often use press conferences and newspaper interviews to further storylines in addition to the stuff people already said. Most fans aren't watching every house show from Korakuen Hall
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Oct 19, 2022 23:00
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Mrenda posted:What's the Japanese for smörgåsbord? I know this is a joke but I decided to look it up and apparently they call it viking food in tribute of the origins of smörgåsbord. Well, that's what google translate of the Japanese wikipedia page of smörgåsbord says anyway.
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Oct 19, 2022 23:16
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Blasmeister posted:Step-over toehold facelock CarlCX posted:Stepover toehold facelock, although the part where it's also a leg submission has been kind of left behind in favor of camera-friendly choking. Thank you both 
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Oct 19, 2022 23:16
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