|
ImpAtom posted:I think the issue is that it is trying to be progressive. The characters have issues which boil down to the lovely views society or people have and try to force onto people, and it is okay to be a girl and like 'manly' things and vice-versa, but at the end of the day it is still almost exclusively tailored to people who want to fit into society instead of being comfortable outside of it Never thought about it that way but it makes sense. If nothing else it would explain why I thought it was a progressive game when I was a kid.
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 22:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 00:53 |
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I think the issue is that it is trying to be progressive. The characters have issues which boil down to the lovely views society or people have and try to force onto people, and it is okay to be a girl and like 'manly' things and vice-versa, but at the end of the day it is still almost exclusively tailored to people who want to fit into society instead of being comfortable outside of it Considering the game's origin being such a conservative country back in 2008 (even earlier if you account for the dev time), you could argue that it was progressive. A lot has changed in the past 14 years.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 22:29
|
|
|
Why does Persona 4 and 5 have so many cops / characters that want to be cops?
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 22:42
|
|
|
cheesetriangles posted:Why does Persona 4 and 5 have so many cops / characters that want to be cops? Because no matter what reality is 'police officer' is coded in media as an occupation you go into if you want to do good and help people and the people who abuse that are twisting what should be a good thing. You are a long way off from mass media fully adopting the idea that police officers as a concept are flawed, rather than just bad apples. Especially since 'arrested by the police' is largely the closest thing we have to an outcome that isn't murder. (Again in fiction not in reality) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Oct 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 22:47
|
|
|
I like to think Chie and Akihiko decided to do the proper thing and wandered the world helping people, only trusting their fists.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 22:55
|
|
|
cheesetriangles posted:Why does Persona 4 and 5 have so many cops / characters that want to be cops? strikers is again superior because the cop in the game hates being a cop and is actively like “Jesus gently caress Don’t Be A Cop” to anyone who will listen edit: the Phantom Thieves say “gently caress 12”: https://youtu.be/NerK9IwxAR0 https://youtu.be/-b-8RsXN70M DC Murderverse fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Oct 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 23:09
|
|
|
Meanwhile in Persona 5 Strikers one of the characters repeatedly says "we despise the police" to the face of a cop. Also when a different character mentions wanting to become a cop and changing the system from the inside, the cop says "cops are scum and it wont work, don't do it"
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 23:11
|
|
|
I feel like that misses the point that he hates being a cop because he was a coward who refused to do what was right and instead allowed himself to be chained down and it ends with him instead going to do what is right. Like I like Strikers a fair bit but it is about as anti-police as P5 (which is to say it believes in the organization but thinks it has been corrupted.)
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 23:15
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I feel like that misses the point that he hates being a cop because he was a coward who refused to do what was right and instead allowed himself to be chained down and it ends with him instead going to do what is right. Nah Zenkichi is saying you can’t reform from the inside because all the cops are cowards like him, and his moment of awakening is realizing that him fighting for Justice means he has to go against the system from the outside and become a Phantom Thief To put it in wildly simplified terms, Makoto and P5 are “Reform the Police” and Zenkichi is “Defund the police”, but neither of them are full on “Abolish the police” (except possibly Haru)
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 23:24
|
|
|
DC Murderverse posted:Nah Zenkichi is saying you can’t reform from the inside because all the cops are cowards like him, and his moment of awakening is realizing that him fighting for Justice means he has to go against the system from the outside and become a Phantom Thief Yeah but at the end he goes back to being a cop.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 23:26
|
|
|
Feels Villeneuve posted:if you want gay games you should play ones which are actually gay rather than ones which hate gay people, IMO list some gay jrpgs (i'm not doing this as a gatcha or any such bullshit, i really want to know)
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 23:27
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Yeah but at the end he goes back to being a cop. P5 and P5S both have the problem where they spend 95% of the game acknowledging systemic issues as the root cause of the injustices towards the party and society as a whole, and the party acting outside the system to change things, but then in that last 5% slamming on the breaks and going "actually using our powers to enact systemic change would be bad because ??? so we'll just leave it up to the good apples like Sae or Zenkichi to do the right thing" and all the character's issues are resolved on a personal level instead. And like I get it this is a Persona game, it's not gonna loving end with the overthrow of the Japanese government in favor of the dictatorship of the student council. It's just kind of a jarring shift in ethos right at the end in both games.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 23:32
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:I like to think Chie and Akihiko decided to do the proper thing and wandered the world helping people, only trusting their fists. I can see Chie absolutely not making it through any kind of training before leaving.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 23:33
|
|
|
MechaX posted:list some gay jrpgs (i'm not doing this as a gatcha or any such bullshit, i really want to know) Fire Emblem 3 Houses.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 23:34
|
|
|
MechaX posted:list some gay jrpgs (i'm not doing this as a gatcha or any such bullshit, i really want to know) Persona 2
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 23:40
|
|
|
MechaX posted:list some gay jrpgs (i'm not doing this as a gatcha or any such bullshit, i really want to know) blue reflection 2
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2022 23:43
|
|
|
Sydin posted:P5 and P5S both have the problem where they spend 95% of the game acknowledging systemic issues as the root cause of the injustices towards the party and society as a whole, and the party acting outside the system to change things, but then in that last 5% slamming on the breaks and going "actually using our powers to enact systemic change would be bad because ??? so we'll just leave it up to the good apples like Sae or Zenkichi to do the right thing" and all the character's issues are resolved on a personal level instead. Well in both games their powers disappear so they couldn't keep doing that even if they wanted to, to be fair.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 00:06
|
|
|
I hope when Chie grows up she makes some actual friends who tell her that being "feminine" is a fake idea.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 00:11
|
|
|
SyntheticPolygon posted:Fire Emblem 3 Houses. i definitely lapsed and forgot about Three Houses when writing that question Gaius Marius posted:Persona 2 Oh, I'm trying to work through Innocent Sin PSP right now, this works out Feels Villeneuve posted:blue reflection 2 *adds to the wishlist*
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 00:12
|
|
|
MechaX posted:list some gay jrpgs (i'm not doing this as a gatcha or any such bullshit, i really want to know) With varying degrees of positive (i.e: some of them are iffy, some I hesitate to put on the lost[/i]) representation. Shadow Hearts (particularly Covenenat) Enchanted Arms Bahamut Lagoon Fire Emblem (some) Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons (some, getting better.) Nier Trails of (x) has a couple Dragon Quest 11 Those are some ones off the top of my head with positive representation of gay male characters (Enchanted Arms is in a WEIRD place with it though). If you add in NPCs and stuff the list gets a whole lot bigger but includes the omnipresent "guy who loves the Cute Boys and thinly veiled hits on teenagers" which I don't like to include. Edit: 13 Sentinels! I forgot about that one. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Oct 20, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 00:12
|
|
|
MechaX posted:
Where are you in IS? Personally I'm on Team Tatsuya/Lisa but it's all good.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 00:15
|
|
|
Honestly I'd like a list of JRPGs with dating stuff that has gay relationships as a mechanic. Cause outside of Fire Emblem/Persona 2/recent Farm sims I can't really think of more mainstream stuff.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 00:23
|
|
|
Does getting gay married to another player in a MMORPG count? Cause you can do that in FFXIV and get a ring that boosts your exp gain or somethin
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 00:28
|
|
|
Maglam Lord. Which is a janky rear end tribute to the Summon Night Swordcraft Story games and isn't very good, but is incredibly gay.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 00:29
|
|
|
SyntheticPolygon posted:Fire Emblem 3 Houses. 3 Houses is kinda gay (although the translation de-Gayed it some) and not really a JRPG, its “sequel” is even less of a JRPG but way gayer and was translated by different people who ran with it
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 00:30
|
|
|
It’s a Japanese rpg?
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 00:48
|
|
|
It's a strategy rpg a la Fire Emblem, but my friend was telling me there was a trans lady unit in Valkyria Chronicles 4 whose story and interactions they really liked. Said friend is non-binary, so I assume it was handled with tact if they're vouching for it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 01:15
|
|
|
STW T, another gay strategy jrpg.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 01:18
|
|
|
Rune Factory 5 lets you farm, fight monsters, and be gay. Sadly, however, you can not be gay in Rune Factory 4 which is the game I like better.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 01:25
|
|
|
drat, can’t believe I forgot Digimon Cyber Sleuth. Maybe my fav gay jrpg (because digimon is way cool)
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 01:30
|
|
|
well, even though the topic has somewhat moved on, it's time for me to make my semi annual "p4 is good, actually" post. I think the way that Kanji is portrayed and handled in P4 is very very good. there's a reason he's most (me included) people's favorite character. his arc is really interesting and one that is very believable. if he's gay or not doesn't really matter, and it isn't really what his arc is about, despite what it seems like at the beginning. now to get to my real controversial point, there's nothing wrong with how yosuke is portrayed. he is basically just a normal teenage boy in the late 2000s. I know, because I was one as well. he has good and bad traits. his constant bagging on kanji is annoying, but that's how boys and friends talked. now I know a lot of people think that he does a bad thing and should get punished within the story for it so that we all know he's wrong. to me that's pretty lazy writing, it's ok to have someone just represent reality without them being tut tutted by the narrative. I'm going to try to make a bigger point here, but I think P4's reputation has suffered in later years because among many people, there is a widespread belief that portrayal = endorsement. I don't think that's true at all. I think that we're supposed to be annoyed at Yosuke and sympathetic for kanji, and that is how it seems the majority of people I knew took it. When it comes to naoto, I also enjoyed her story, and thought it was done well. Her's is explicitly not a trans story. she appeared as a boy so that misogynists would take her seriously, similar to lying about your age I guess. Cool stuff about gender could've been done, but it wasn't I guess, having written all that out, people might be disappointed because P4 basically flirts with ideas of homosexuality, queerness, transness, but it turns out that they're not really going all the way with it. It is pretty frustrating if you enjoy seeing those concepts explored in media, and I can understand being frustrated by the "bait and switch"' but I don't really think that's the games fault. at it's heart, P4 isn't about attacking society or making anything better lol, it's about accepting yourself, even if your role isn't as grand as you might think. that's why it's set in a small town, that's why every single characters arc is about accepting themselves, rather than changing or bettering themselves. it's the theme of the story. you can think that's boring or not a good theme, but I think that it does a good job of conveying that. now contrast that with P5 and the phantom thieves which is supposed to be about challenging and changing society. to me, P5 pretty much totally failed to represent that theme through the story of the main game or the character arcs of the MCs. I haven't played the royal additions though and I've heard that they are pretty good. what frustrates me is just how fruitless all of this discussion has been. I have seen this exact discussion play out what feels like hundreds of times. it feels like 95% of the discussion of P4 is naoto, yosuke, and kanji. it's really tedious. I wish people could discuss different things, like how awful Marie was, how her dungeon sucked, or how good the music is.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 02:12
|
|
|
Pwnstar posted:I hope when Chie grows up she makes some actual friends who tell her that being "feminine" is a fake idea. "It's fine to wear pants." Which is something you could probably tell a lot of women JRPG protags.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 02:14
|
|
|
Mirello posted:now to get to my real controversial point, there's nothing wrong with how yosuke is portrayed. he is basically just a normal teenage boy in the late 2000s. I know, because I was one as well. he has good and bad traits. his constant bagging on kanji is annoying, but that's how boys and friends talked. now I know a lot of people think that he does a bad thing and should get punished within the story for it so that we all know he's wrong. to me that's pretty lazy writing, it's ok to have someone just represent reality without them being tut tutted by the narrative. I'm going to try to make a bigger point here, but I think P4's reputation has suffered in later years because among many people, there is a widespread belief that portrayal = endorsement. I don't think that's true at all. I think that we're supposed to be annoyed at Yosuke and sympathetic for kanji, and that is how it seems the majority of people I knew took it. I also grew up in the 2000s and have mentioned once or twice that Yosuke's behavior seems entirely ordinary for a high school boy of that time. I don't like to bring it up because it sounds like I'm condoning it but I can't deny it might be part of why I don't hate Yosuke like some do. I love Brosuke in fact and while his treatment of Kanji is horrible, I just took it as a dumb, insecure teenage boy making bad jokes. I feel there are other, much better scenes which truly represent who he is. Mirello posted:at it's heart, P4 isn't about attacking society or making anything better lol, it's about accepting yourself, even if your role isn't as grand as you might think. that's why it's set in a small town, that's why every single characters arc is about accepting themselves, rather than changing or bettering themselves. it's the theme of the story. you can think that's boring or not a good theme, but I think that it does a good job of conveying that. This is why I've always really enjoyed Yukiko's arc. Her story is one of feeling suffocated by your normal little life but growing up and realizing that "normal little life" is full of people you love and who love you. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Oct 20, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 02:28
|
|
|
I mostly just think the issue is that we're supposed to laugh with Yosuke too often. You can portray something without condoning it, but it really did feel like the game was condoning some of his lovely behavior.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 02:33
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:I like to think Chie and Akihiko decided to do the proper thing and wandered the world helping people, only trusting their fists. I mean. This is exactly what Akihiko does. And he gets mauled by a bear for his troubles. (Then kills the bear by punching it.) PunkBoy posted:I can see Chie absolutely not making it through any kind of training before leaving. Chie absolutely becomes a cop, though. She is straight up mentioned in one of the TV broadcasts in P5.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 02:34
|
|
|
Yosuke only avoids being called an incel because one of the main villains is the worlds biggest incel.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 02:56
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:I also grew up in the 2000s and have mentioned once or twice that Yosuke's behavior seems entirely ordinary for a high school boy of that time. I don't like to bring it up because it sounds like I'm condoning it but I can't deny it might be part of why I don't hate Yosuke like some do. I love Brosuke in fact and while his treatment of Kanji is horrible, I just took it as a dumb, insecure teenage boy making bad jokes. I feel there are other, much better scenes which truly represent who he is. Hell gently caress HS, I knew guys in university circa late 2000's who were Literally Yosuke™. One of the roommates I got lumped in with Freshman year pretty much checked all the boxes: upper-middle income city kid whose dad owned a business, was super insecure about anything he considered even remotely gay (he called a full room meeting to discuss "the problem" of several guys forgetting to bring towels to the shower and walking back to their rooms naked, "forcing" him to see their junk  ) and basically threw himself at any sorority girl he laid eyes on in a desperate attempt to get laid. Like yeah Yosuke just is a poo poo privileged teenage boy from the 90's/2000's, but that doesn't make him any more pleasant to experience as a character.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 03:01
|
|
|
SyntheticPolygon posted:STW T, another gay strategy jrpg. I am maybe 2/3rds through T right now and I just have to know for sure; is this about Sagiri? NikkolasKing posted:Where are you in IS? I am still messing around in Sevens High breaking clocks with brooms MechaX fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Oct 20, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 03:33
|
|
|
It is about Sagiri and her bisexual office colleagues that are down bad for her.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 03:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 00:53 |
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I think the issue is that it is trying to be progressive. The characters have issues which boil down to the lovely views society or people have and try to force onto people, and it is okay to be a girl and like 'manly' things and vice-versa, but at the end of the day it is still almost exclusively tailored to people who want to fit into society instead of being comfortable outside of it Sure, look at the "misfits" who make up the cast of Persona 5. I too often think of the student body president as someone who just doesn't fit in.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2022 04:32
|
|
