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fnox posted:Considering they also want to add a language requirement for those jobs, I don't think the current Swedish government is prepared to solve it that way. They are prepared to solve the problem that environmental laws get in the way of company profits, that's for sure.
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Oct 20, 2022 09:40
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language proficiency is pretty important for end-of-life care centers - old and sick people don't speak english well and can't be expected to learn. afaik in norway the rule is that you have to have at least one actual nurse on hand per unit and one native norwegian-speaker. that latter is also actually important - again, old/sick people will typically have a much easier time communicating with other native speakers than with people who learned as adults. the rest of the staff seems to be made up of vernepleiere/hjelpepleiere from whereever. then you have resources like doctors etc and presumably some more nurses and admin at higher levels. this kind of care is important and very delicate work. i don't think i could do it, or at least not for very long. i don't think you can just pull people off the street and put them into action. re: hospitals etc., that's a big, big issue and the nursing shortage has become chronic, especially after the employer negated the nurses' right to co-determination of the shift planning about a decade ago. it is not trivially solved in any way short of a complete reorganisation of the field, i suspect
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Oct 20, 2022 12:47
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Revelation 2-13 posted:You are super wrong and you have no clue what you’re talking about. Working conditions is a core part of overenskomster, it’s practically the main thing they revolved around. Why do you think there is five weeks of paid vacation? A 37-hour work week. What do you think the rules around paid lunch breaks, arbejdstidsaftaler generally, flextime, senior-days, childcare-days, the rules regulating the use of overtime and nightshirts? It’s because collective bargaining agreements primary role is regulating working conditions. Pay negotiations are directly tied to workload as well. Yes, there is also a ‘leadership prerogative’, but that solely is about directing and organizing work, and is in no way somehow mutually exclusive to negotiating about working conditions. Yes, management can tell you ‘tough poo poo, you have to work faster’, but unions can totally (and have historically) challenge that, both via collective bargaining, but also locally outside the collective bargaining periods, in the various councils and board they sit on. The overenskomst regulates how long i work. The compensation for the hours. The rules and rights regarding sickness, and such. The rules and rights regarding "pålagte" shifts. But the overenskomst does not regulate How many patients I have to care for. The level of care for the patients. Any ancillary task connected to the work. And the union represantatives have been using their access to med udvalg and such to warn against working conditions, but the management has no duty to follow these warnings.
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Oct 20, 2022 13:11
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loving hell. I guess Sweden's the new Trump/Boris/Bolsonaro-land.
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Oct 20, 2022 15:15
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https://twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/status/1582656577508556800?s=20&t=d4Va_H9utskO-369YNbKlw I read a book once about the Russian church. It mentioned that the church had a bad habit of getting itself deeply involved with the latest regime and never even attempting to stay independent. This means that while the church might have shared the glories. It also suffered a lot in the downfalls.
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Oct 20, 2022 15:17
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Imaginary Friend posted:loving hell. I guess Sweden's the new Trump/Boris/Bolsonaro-land. I mean it's a single MP, not the head of state
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Oct 20, 2022 15:31
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Beeswax posted:I mean it's a single MP, not the head of state “He’s a reality talk show host, it’s just a publicity stunt”
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Oct 20, 2022 16:37
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Not sure how to break this to you but there have been loonies in the Riksdag since forever. It is not some incredible sea change
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Oct 20, 2022 17:23
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vuk83 posted:The overenskomst regulates how long i work. Pretty much this. Non-nurses just don't know this. And it isn't like you can mandate what is the Patient/Nurse ratio in 'health-care', because there isn't a single standard work environment. Nursing is very heterogenic field and different jobs/wards/Icu/nursing homes have different needs. And they can change, when patient groups are reorganized or change. Here in Finland we had pretty heavy fight against bosses this year. 6 months into our labour fight our leftish goverment made Forced labour laws against nurses and we retaliated by collecting names for mass resignations. We mostly won. We Got 15% raise over 3 years, with measly 2% for the next 2 years after that, but our contract is only for 3 years so that isn't probably going to stay that low. Also some promises and agreements about 'improving working conditions', but we will see what will actually happen in next few years.
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Oct 20, 2022 17:48
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adhuin posted:Pretty much this. Non-nurses just don't know this. One of the big scandals in danish healthcare is a lot of people have been unnecessarily amputated. The reason why was cut in small vascular surgical units because of mergers and efficiency. All the time the different surgical experts and surgical societies had warned against the cuts and mergers. But the regions didn't give a poo poo.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:08
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I guess it's not a coincidence these strikes are happening now that Covid is not such a big thing anymore? Heard my nurse dad talk a lot about how they were dicked around during covid and told that now was not the time to argue, and that there would be a reward once they got through it, and surprise surprise prices have gone up a bunch but raises are not forthcoming. Probably something similar happened to teachers and kindergarten people.
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Oct 21, 2022 08:12
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vuk83 posted:One of the big scandals in danish healthcare is a lot of people have been unnecessarily amputated. Out of curiosity, how the whole Sundhetsplattformen working for you all these days? How long after implementing it was it worse than useless? It's all the rage up here in the frozen north. Literally. Like emergency room doctors are gonna go torch some health execs car soon or something.
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Oct 21, 2022 11:33
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Nice piece of fish posted:Out of curiosity, how the whole Sundhetsplattformen working for you all these days? How long after implementing it was it worse than useless? It's all the rage up here in the frozen north. Literally. Like emergency room doctors are gonna go torch some health execs car soon or something. IIRC the main problem, aside from all the technical issues, was that they used it as an excuse to get rid of doctors' secretaries. Were you guys smarter about that?
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Oct 21, 2022 11:55
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SplitSoul posted:IIRC the main problem, aside from all the technical issues, was that they used it as an excuse to get rid of doctors' secretaries. Were you guys smarter about that? I don't know but signs point to that we're dumb as poo poo.
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Oct 21, 2022 12:14
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Nice piece of fish posted:Out of curiosity, how the whole Sundhetsplattformen working for you all these days? How long after implementing it was it worse than useless? It's all the rage up here in the frozen north. Literally. Like emergency room doctors are gonna go torch some health execs car soon or something. Sundhedsplatformen is OK, but requires that you have some basic it skills. If you're a stodgy old attending doctor, used to only charting via dictaphone, its gonna suck. If you're a bit younger and used to using computers in a professional setting, it has a lot of nifty features. It requires a lot of setup in the specific wards and units, but if set up, quite usable. For me as a CNA in a neurological nursing ward, it's actually quite OK. Compared to the stuff I used in the kommune I used to work, alot more workable. Also because it's based on epic it has a lot of integration w/ medicotech. As an example I measured a patients blood glucose today, and by scanning his patient ID it went directly to SP. Same option when dipping urine.
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Oct 21, 2022 17:49
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V. Illych L. posted:language proficiency is pretty important for end-of-life care centers - old and sick people don't speak english well and can't be expected to learn. afaik in norway the rule is that you have to have at least one actual nurse on hand per unit and one native norwegian-speaker. that latter is also actually important - again, old/sick people will typically have a much easier time communicating with other native speakers than with people who learned as adults. the rest of the staff seems to be made up of vernepleiere/hjelpepleiere from whereever. then you have resources like doctors etc and presumably some more nurses and admin at higher levels. lol welcome to the swedish model wherein you get three days of mandated minimum on the job-training, a written test on medicine mandated by law and you're good to go! The suggested language tests are as such a meaningless band-aid on a much bigger problem that'll mostly waste resources that could have gone towards solving the problem. Swedish municipalities have, helmed the SKR, largely de-qualified the elderly care industry to save on money and cut taxes. This works because unions mandate that unqualifieds get substantially lower wages, which has been driving muncipalities towards employing more unqualifieds. It's a poo poo-show. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Oct 21, 2022 |
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Oct 21, 2022 18:19
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vuk83 posted:Sundhedsplatformen is OK, but requires that you have some basic it skills. As someone on the receiving end of health data: the scanning integration is cool and good and I can't wait for the regions that don't use SP to start scanning more things. I am sick of legacy systems with free text fields.
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Oct 21, 2022 20:06
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Even the cops hate tidelagsavtalet https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/sa-kan-forslagen-i-tidoavtalet-paverka-brottsligheten "Polisförbundet kallar regeringens förslag för ”en katalog av repressiva åtgärder”. Vissa förslag, till exempel vistelseförbud för kriminella i vissa områden och slopad mängdrabatt för dem som döms för flera brott, anses vara bra. Men annat saknas, menar ordförande Katharina von Sydow: – Före valet pratades mycket om att det skulle bli fler poliser och att yrket skulle göras attraktivt, men jag ser ingenting av det i Tidöavtalet. Och det viktiga förebyggande arbetet som våra medlemmar vill se – samverkan mellan socialtjänst, polis, skola och fritidsverksamhet - det ser jag inte mycket av heller. Skadad tillit Polisförbundets medlemmar befarar att införandet av visitationszoner – där vem som helst kan bli visiterad utan misstanke om brott – kan bli direkt kontraproduktivt. – Visitationszoner riskerar bara att skada relationerna och den tillit som polisen försöker bygga upp i det brottsförebyggande arbetet, säger Katharina von Sydow, ordförande Polisförbundet. Hon får medhåll av Martin Lazar, kommunpolis i Botkyrka. – Vi lokalpoliser har tillräckligt med verktyg i dag för att kunna visitera rätt personer. Kriminologen Manne Gerell bedömer att åtgärderna regeringen vill införa var för sig har liten eller ingen effekt på brottsligheten. Men sammantaget kan de ha en viss påverkan. – Man försöker göra det lite svårare att vara kriminell och lite lättare att vara polis. Svagheten är att politiken kommer med vissa kostnader i termer av försämrat integritetsskydd och rättsäkerhet och det kan drabba oskyldiga. Det riskerar att urholka förtroendet för polisen, staten och rättsväsendet."
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Oct 22, 2022 00:21
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McCloud posted:samverkan mellan socialtjänst, polis, skola och fritidsverksamhet This sounds ominous.
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Oct 22, 2022 05:55
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Revelation 2-13 posted:As additional anecdata, literally none the nurses I know (I know more than a few for various reasons) think more pay will solve their problems. They all say they need more colleagues, as in more nurses. It’s the workload that’s the problem, not the salary. Okay, but that seems like a false dichotomy. Isn't it reasonable to assume that higher pay might lead to more nurses down the line, especially if you have to work for 8 years before you start getting the big bucks? Nursing (especially in the public sector) seems like a rough time, so I'm not surprised people are choosing other options. 200kr an hour isn't actually that much considering that you have to spend ~3-4 years studying. If you're spending that amount of time getting a diploma, you could just go be a computer toucher and earn 250/hr starting out, not have to wait 8 years for that pay to start scaling, and also know that you're not walking into a shitshow in terms of working hours. I'm not saying there aren't other groups treated worse, but if there's a lack of staff in this profession, raising wages seems like an obvious knob to turn to try to attract more people. I don't imagine it helps that nurses have been protesting several times over the last decade for better wages, and even during the pandemic, the response from the government has been "thanks for all your work, we see and hear you. We'll create a commission to tell us not to pay you more". This has happened at least twice now.
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Oct 22, 2022 11:31
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Right now 1/3rd of newly graduated nurses leave nursing within 2 years of graduation. This year we have something like 30% less applicants to a nursing program.
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Oct 22, 2022 14:50
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vuk83 posted:Right now 1/3rd of newly graduated nurses leave nursing within 2 years of graduation. Hope old people like not receiving care then. There's not a thing money can do to fix an actual shortage of vital services.
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Oct 22, 2022 15:13
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Nice piece of fish posted:Hope old people like not receiving care then. There's not a thing money can do to fix an actual shortage of vital services. It's all good, with the planned blackouts and the cell phone towers having been deregulated to not need any emergency power all of the old people will die this winter without an ability to call for help.
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Oct 22, 2022 15:23
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Except import or training of immigrants, and actually making it attractive to return to nursing/sosu work again. It'll take time though. When I was teaching Danish as a second language, my school had an FVU department. FVU is supposed to be remedial language/maths for people who didn't finish 7-9th grade, but it was used as extra lessons for immigrants who wanted/needed more practice and help speaking Danish. This was generally good, and the students were super nice. The relevant point here is that they actually made a directed FVU programme for going to sosu school, and not only was this both motivating and meaningful for the women (there was absolutely a specific demographic who got into the program...) involved, they were all extremely nice people who I would gladly hand my hypothetical senile granny to. We have plenty of untapped potential for great sosu workers, if only we discard a bit of racism and spend a bit on schooling.
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Oct 22, 2022 15:48
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Right now immigrants, and descendants are already a big part of nursing and care in denmark. But yeah they used to have a extended 20 week grundforloeb for immigrants. Also to learn danish culture, food and how to ride a bike
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Oct 22, 2022 16:09
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Feliday Melody posted:This sounds ominous. It's not, rather the opposite. An example: I lived in an area (semi-suburban style) that got some of the lowest polling when it comes to how secure people felt in the city. This was mainly because of a bunch of youth groups that caused mostly minor problems, but was the typical pattern of a negative spiral. I.e. kids skip school, hang around with some minor drug use, end up unemployed due to no education, need money, do heavier crimes and heavier drugs, and so on. So instead of doing the typical thing of sitting on their hands until things are bad enough that prison sentences and broken lives is the only results, the local schools, socialtjänst and police collaborated. It ended with mostly a very minor effort: the police would meet the guys who were the furthest gone from school in the morning, pick them up, and drive them to school. Then the schools kept a better track of them and made sure they got more help. This led to fewer kids hanging around instead of going to school, they got a better shot at getting an education (and later a job), and people in the area felt less unsafe, and thereby less likely to vote for parties that prey on morons that think that putting kids in prison is the best way to make a safe society. These kinds of things is basically what crime research says should be done a lot more instead of harsher punishments and heavily armed police, but a lot of people don't care about what science says about crime and would like a biblical level of legal code. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Oct 22, 2022 |
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Oct 22, 2022 16:58
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Like Liljonas said, having police collaborate with social services and other agencies gives them more tools and options that isn't just "stern talking to" or "arrest them". Plus people might be more inclined to cooperate with people that aren't cops
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Oct 22, 2022 18:05
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lilljonas posted:These kinds of things is basically what crime research says should be done a lot more instead of harsher punishments and heavily armed police, but a lot of people don't care about what science says about crime and would like a biblical level of legal code. It's not just crime. intensive programs involving many institutions and even NGOs are also proving effective at combating homelessness, longterm unemployment and drug addiction. It's definitely a method that is being actively researched and increasingly used across the spectrum of social services. I do think people want to know about solutions to problems but it requires that people explain a coherent strategy and can eventually demonstrate results otherwise the right wing solution becomes the only solution.
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Oct 22, 2022 18:23
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Esran posted:Okay, but that seems like a false dichotomy. Isn't it reasonable to assume that higher pay might lead to more nurses down the line, especially if you have to work for 8 years before you start getting the big bucks? Nursing (especially in the public sector) seems like a rough time, so I'm not surprised people are choosing other options. I don’t think it’s a false dichotomy. You could say ‘why not both’ I.e. more pay AND better working conditions. I think that would be great for many reasons. Regardless, I don’t think any realistic amount of higher pay might lead to more nurses down the line. Nurses are already in the higher end of public sector pay. Did I mention an average salary of 500.000+ a year? How much more money do they need to be attractive? And that’s full time nurses. Apparently (and I only have the media as source for this, so may be exaggerated) you can earn A LOT more, if you’re only part time real nurse, and work as a temp/vikar as well. Regardless of whether or not that’s true, the money nurses get is objectively fine for the public sector, and a lot higher than people seem to think. The conditions are poo poo, that’s why people are fleeing. At least the ones I’ve talked to. I’ve talked to a lot of nurses about this specific question. It’s stressful, constantly understaffed, long hours, a lot of nightshifts and management is usually poo poo. The previous commission didn’t say: “don’t pay more”, it said: “nurses are already paid quite well compared to other similar groups (to the extent you can make comparisons at all). Do with that information what you will”. Comparatively, nurses pay look even better now, than it did back then, as far as I can tell. I checked up on the numbers and a nurse with 0 years of experience, earns, on average, about 225 dkk an hour. For comparison purposes (also all with 0 years experience): An ‘it-medarbejder’ person earns almost exactly the same as a nurse. Pædagogs and sosu (with similar education) around 210 dkk/h. A cleaning assistant earns 166 dkk/h and a djøffer (jurist/økonom academic) earns 244 dkk/h. That nurses are somehow behind on salary, is a myth fabricated by DSR politicians and completely removed from objective reality and facts. I guess you could take some of the pay nurses get at later steps, and front load it more (to keep it budget neutral). That would make their starting salary more like an academic, but with a lower/slower progression/end-point. To the general point, the big public sector areas simply can’t pay as much as private sector computer touches gets. Not under the current system. Im all for increasing the pay of all public sector employees to computer toucher levels, but it would require a political shift of a magnitude not seen in Denmark since ever, pretty much. If anything we’re seeing a shift in the other direction. It’s a like a childs fantasy, that we can just give public sector employees more pay across the board. If anything, the current crises and political winds points to privatizing the healthcare sector. Welcome to America. Oh btw, hope you’re not a poor. Schools are next.
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Oct 23, 2022 00:19
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Revelation 2-13 posted:I don’t think it’s a false dichotomy. You could say ‘why not both’ I.e. more pay AND better working conditions. I think that would be great for many reasons. Regardless, I don’t think any realistic amount of higher pay might lead to more nurses down the line. Nurses are already in the higher end of public sector pay. Did I mention an average salary of 500.000+ a year? How much more money do they need to be attractive? And that’s full time nurses. Apparently (and I only have the media as source for this, so may be exaggerated) you can earn A LOT more, if you’re only part time real nurse, and work as a temp/vikar as well. Regardless of whether or not that’s true, the money nurses get is objectively fine for the public sector, and a lot higher than people seem to think. The conditions are poo poo, that’s why people are fleeing. At least the ones I’ve talked to. I’ve talked to a lot of nurses about this specific question. It’s stressful, constantly understaffed, long hours, a lot of nightshifts and management is usually poo poo. Speaking of like-to-like, you calling the SOSU education "similar" is kind of strange, given that you can do that one with a 9th grade exam, while nurses need a high school exam, a qualifying other education (including SOSU!), or workplace experience plus specific high school subjects. The actual category nurses belong to are profession bachelors, which also includes engineers and their average 720k/year salary. Revelation 2-13 posted:To the general point, the big public sector areas simply can’t pay as much as private sector computer touches gets. Not under the current system. Im all for increasing the pay of all public sector employees to computer toucher levels, but it would require a political shift of a magnitude not seen in Denmark since ever, pretty much. If anything we’re seeing a shift in the other direction. It’s a like a childs fantasy, that we can just give public sector employees more pay across the board. If anything, the current crises and political winds points to privatizing the healthcare sector. Welcome to America. Oh btw, hope you’re not a poor. Schools are next.
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Oct 23, 2022 05:40
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The 500k average yearly salary is the CEPOS stat, right? The one that includes additional pay for having to work nights, weekends and holidays, despite there being an EU verdict that wages have to be compared like-to-like and these sorts of "bonuses" should not be included. It also includes nurses with additional specializations. No, it’s not a “cepos number” it’s the danish statistics number. You can check lons20 and lons50, also check sirka for difference between municipal and regional nurses and to compare within specific years of experience. It’s about as factual and objective as number as it is possible to get. For the most part, it doesn’t include specialised nurses (and they generally make more). As an aside, I loving loathe cepos and the stupid fake “analysis” the constantly produce on any subject, but if they used the 500.000 number, then they happen to be right. Yes, it does include the extra salary people get for overtime pay and additions for nighttime shift, just like it does for everyone else, because it’s based on what people actually earned in those jobs over the last year. No, it’s not against eu regulations, it is in fact the only way to compare salary like-to-like. Literally anyone who works with salary comparisons, including in the unions will tell you this. E: just to add, if you compare based on ‘wage pr. performed hours’ instead of standardized hourly wage (the two main ways pay is compared researchwise) nurses come out even more favorable, as it’s paid time off is comparatively good in their collective bargaining agreements. A Buttery Pastry posted:Speaking of like-to-like, you calling the SOSU education "similar" is kind of strange, given that you can do that one with a 9th grade exam, while nurses need a high school exam, a qualifying other education (including SOSU!), or workplace experience plus specific high school subjects. The actual category nurses belong to are profession bachelors, which also includes engineers and their average 720k/year salary. When I wrote it, I was thinking mostly about pædagogs, who have very similar requirements and educational lengths to nurses, but you’re right sosu-assistant doesn’t require a high school diploma (e: they both earn about 7 pct. less than nurses). Yes all engineers make more. Maybe they shouldn’t. Teachers, another comparable group, make about 525.000 on average. So, about 5 pct. more. Building constructors, another pba, make about 570.000 on average. A Buttery Pastry posted:This framing is rubbish. Pay isn't natural law, it's a political choice, and a discussion in D&D shouldn't be constrained by """political realities""". Yes, it'd cost more, but if you're already considering upping nurse pay then you're also in a situation where you might be cracking down on other bullshit and clawing back money from rich people, which could pay for higher wages and more staff. Higher wages will also stimulate the real economy far more than the money being invested by psycho bankers, making it less costly in real terms. I don’t thinking framing it the way I did is somehow rubbish and I also don’t think I somehow suggested that pay is a natural law. The reason this discussion is even happening is because people apparently don’t understand, that nurses are among the higher paid public sector employees, which is why I originally said I think DSR are stupid to not focus on what’s actually wrong, namely working conditions. Sure, if we move away from the awful political realities; in an imaginary world, where nurses are paid really poorly compared to other groups, I’d agree that DSR politicians are right to focus all their energy on increasing pay, and if that world also includes unlimited funding for the public sector, I definitely think we should pay nurses the same as private sector computer touchers. I think nurses are much more important for our/any society than people making stupid apps or help boomers find their printer settings or whatever. I apologise if I came off as disagreeing with that. E: it’s wild to me, that the factual objective numbers around nurses salary is so controversial as they seem to be itt Revelation 2-13 fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Oct 23, 2022 |
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Oct 23, 2022 07:58
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Again in overenskomst DSR can actually only negotiate 2 things regarding working conditions. They should negotiate away employer paid breaks, so it's employee paid instead, meaning the nurses can take a break, and can't be interrupted. Also negotiate away tilkald and pålæggelse, so nurse can't be forced to work outside their 4 week schedule. And DSR have been talking about poor working conditions since forever too anyone who would listen. But nobody listened. So
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Oct 23, 2022 18:06
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Making the breaks unpaid is just a few facto paycut though, at least as long as there are more tasks than on-duty time, which is the thing we actually need to solve. 90% of nurses are not gonna say "yeah, let him bleed for 5 more minutes, I'm on smoko", because they're usually the opposite of psychos. And (upper) management knows and takes advantage of that.
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Oct 23, 2022 18:18
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Revelation 2-13 posted:E: it’s wild to me, that the factual objective numbers around nurses salary is so controversial as they seem to be itt Revelation 2-13 posted:When I wrote it, I was thinking mostly about pædagogs, who have very similar requirements and educational lengths to nurses, but you’re right sosu-assistant doesn’t require a high school diploma (e: they both earn about 7 pct. less than nurses). Yes all engineers make more. Maybe they shouldn’t. Teachers, another comparable group, make about 525.000 on average. So, about 5 pct. more. Building constructors, another pba, make about 570.000 on average.
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Oct 23, 2022 19:01
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Revelation 2-13 posted:You could say ‘why not both’ I.e. more pay AND better working conditions. My point was that one of the ways to improve working conditions is to attract more nurses, so you can improve how stretched thin nurses are. Of the options available to attract more people to the profession, raising pay is one of the easy ones. I'm not saying to raise pay and do nothing else about working conditions. Doing literally anything to improve working conditions would be a good idea, because the public health care system seems to be bleeding out. I think it's pretty weird that you insist that higher pay is the wrong focus, considering that nurses have been protesting for wage increases a number of times now. Are they just misguided and should be protesting for something else? Revelation 2-13 posted:That nurses are somehow behind on salary, is a myth fabricated by DSR politicians and completely removed from objective reality and facts So just to be clear, are you saying that DSR is misleading the nurses, and when nurses protest for better wages, that's just DSR tricking them into thinking they're underpaid? Or is this a silent majority thing where DSR isn't representing the nurses properly? Revelation 2-13 posted:It’s about as factual and objective as number as it is possible to get. [...] Yes, it does include the extra salary people get for overtime pay and additions for nighttime shift, just like it does for everyone else, because it’s based on what people actually earned in those jobs over the last year The number might be objective, but that doesn't mean it is being applied fairly. If nurses make 500k a year, but have to take a lot of weird shifts and overtime to get there, and it is also a high pressure job in other ways, then why is it reasonable to compare that against other jobs that don't have those drawbacks? According to the chart derived from loen20 on https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/penge/tjener-en-sygeplejerske-25000-eller-42000-kroner-her-er-hvad-der-er-op-og-ned-i-den, you can make more than a nurse by going and being a librarian or a teacher. I'm pretty sure the working environment and hours for either is more comfortable (though it has been getting worse for teachers), so why shouldn't the worse working environment come with a premium in wage terms? Edit: Since "the current system" is that S and V take turns chipping away at the public sector, I agree that higher wages in the public sector isn't the way the political winds are blowing. Esran fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Oct 23, 2022 |
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Oct 23, 2022 19:36
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Politiskt: jag såg Doktor Kosmos i lördags. Det var toppen.
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Oct 24, 2022 10:08
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Beeswax posted:Politiskt: jag såg Doktor Kosmos i lördags. Det var toppen. It's like the shining beacon of conservative poo poo called them back from retirement.
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Oct 24, 2022 10:21
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Punk might make a comeback, with SD and kulturkanon and so forth
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Oct 24, 2022 12:11
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Fox Cunning posted:Punk might make a comeback, with SD and kulturkanon and so forth Funnily enough, the last two years or so, I've suddenly seen a surge of teenagers in old school punk outfits in town. There's even some kids on my street that combine punk clothes, spiked collars and... corpse paint? It's very cute and shows amazing timing. Speaking of telling the future, M broke with SD in Sölvesborg. For those not in the know, this was the first place where M and SD joined forces to rule, before it was sanctioned by M on a national level. It's also in the hearland of SD, in Blekinge where they started up and where SD got 39% (!) this election. Turned out, four years later, M has decided that it was simply impossible (and very unpleasant!) to rule with SD. They've said that SD acted extremely arrogant, never listened to anything, etc. So they're forming a broad consesus (M , C, S and some local parties) and kicking out SD instead. Needless to say, SD shows their true faces and are sending death threats. https://www.dn.se/sverige/hatstorm-mot-m-i-solvesborg-inte-vagat-ga-ut/ Enjoy doing the same journey the coming years on a national level, M, KD and L. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 12:31 on Oct 24, 2022 |
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Oct 24, 2022 12:17
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Factual numbers don't matter if what they represent isn't the same. I am not going to compare the salary of a "Regular office job with no real responsibility" to "Job with night shifts where you have to deal with piss, poo poo, and death" without taking into account that additional bullshit. Night shifts are actually bad for your loving health, of course you should be compensated for doing that poo poo beyond whatever baseline salary is appropriate for your education level. Which is not to say that other jobs aren't also bad for your health and badly compensated, but that's not an argument that nurses should also be. I don't think anyone is saying that people shouldn't be compensated for dealing with piss, poo poo and death or nightshift work, or that nurses are overpaid. I sure haven't and I certainly don't think so. Anyway, there are a lot of both theoretical and practical reasons for using the full salary people get, when trying to compare salaries like-to-like. Most importantly, when comparing salary you compare everything, because that's what people actually get paid. That's the overall compensation, whether that's sales bonuses, results-bonuses, pension percentage, it all counts as salary, for comparison purposes. Overtime counts, hazard pay counts, 'funktionstillæg' counts, 'kvalifikationstillæg' counts. Once that is established, we have a factual starting point, from where we are able to discuss whether that salary adequately compensates for the annoying and possible hazardous nature of whatever work people do (nightshifts, being 'on call' or whatever else you might get compensated for in your salary). We can further discuss why one group gets more of one type of compensation or another, but we have to compare like-to-like, when comparing salary. You can’t just subtract part of one groups pay and then compare that to another groups full pay, it's absolutely ridiculous. Comparing the full salary, is the only way it's done in any serious setting. If you want to say 'loving nerd librarians being paid better than nurses is ridiculous, when they just sit around on their asses all day' it's only possible if you have an factual comparison point. That point is comparing the full salary. From a practical perspective, it's also pretty much impossible to compare while subtracting specific pay-component for many reasons. For example; not every group gets compensated the same way for the same thing. Nurses get comparatively generous over-/nighttime pay, because the nurses union historically have focused on it. That means a larger percentage of their full pay, is based on night-/overtime work. So, if you subtract it nightshift compensation from both nurses and policeassistents, the policeassistents, because they're compensated less for nighttime work, will look like they earn that much more (than they already do) even if they work the same average nightshift hours. Then there are the large groups of academics, who simply don't get any overtime/evening pay. They get a higher base pay, but can't get overtime pay despite being 'forced' to take uncompensated overtime or evening work when necessary. It's simply part of the higher base pay, that they have to be available in the evenings or for extended hours. Another example, nurses get their hourly wage + 27 - 32 pct. for working evenings/nights (pension giving iirc). Pædagogs get a non-pension giving bonus between 5.000 and 20.000 dkk pr year, based on an interval of how many hours they work evenings (they have to work more than 100 hours a year, to qualify for the lowest amount). Subtracting both of those 'evening-pay' components, then comparing their salaries, you're not just comparing oranges and apples, you're comparing albatross flight patterns and apples. There are a myriad of examples like these. Esran posted:
I don’t think they are misleading nurses specially, but they are certainly the cause of a lot of misconceptions about the relative salary level of nurses. I also think they are stupidly focusing on increasing nurses salary, when they should be focused on working conditions. I've been following this for a long time (e: in a professional capacity, just so it's clear) and I don’t believe the nursing strikes have come from a dissatisfaction with the salary, I believe it’s a much more general discontent. The pay focus comes from DSR politicans. I’ll stop my part of the discussion here (much to the relief of the thread, I'm sure) but the reason I have been harping on about this, is because in this election, and more generally before tbh, there has been a really stupid (imo) focus on public sector pay, in large parts based on a myth about how nurses salary is super low. However, the problem is not nurse salary, their salary is comparatively high - notice I'm 100 pct. not saying it's too high, at all. Sure it could be higher, it could be higher for a lot of public sector groups, including groups who are worse off than nurses. The problem, the main problem imo, is the general, deliberate, defunding of the pubic sector, that has made the working conditions intolerable for the employees in many areas. As DSR keeps yammering on about nurses salary being the big problem (despite them factually and objectively being paid very reasonably compared to other public sector groups), the newspapers focus on salary and politicians follow suit. Thinking there is quick and cheap fix by just paying the nurses slightly more. It’s just so stupid imo. Not only does it divert attention away from the actual problems, it also sets it up so the next crises will also 100 pct. be some other group that also need more salary, which also won't do anything to solve anything. Meanwhile, no one talks about how to fix what's actually wrong, because suggesting refunding pubic sector is political suicide for some stupid reason. Revelation 2-13 fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Oct 24, 2022 |
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Oct 24, 2022 21:47
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