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i would stop posting about this if even one of the people who are like 'the rhaenys scene fine stop complaining' would even vaguely understand that it isn't about the character motivation it's about the direction and editing of the scene. it's framed as this BIG moment, and it actually means absolutely nothing that couldn't have been achieved with her not bursting through the dragonpit floor. she's leaving? cool makes sense. doesn't want to kill her family? fine, i guess that makes sense. but she bursts through the floor killing probably hundreds of people to do nothing and leave. that...doesn't make sense, unless you suddenly adopt the new attitude that rhaenys is a complete idiot, which is completely contrary to her portrayal in the show and especially in this scene. it's stupid spectacle for the sake of it. they have faked us out, they have now proven that they are willing to fake us out so everything means less. rhaenys now makes less sense as a human being. and everything in the scene is saying no, believe the opposite of all of that. this is exciting, and either think about how exciting it is or don't think about it at all. most of this season, this show has been way better than this. so it's being picked on, and it deserves it. do you guys get that part roomtone fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Oct 20, 2022 |
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Oct 20, 2022 05:04
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roomtone posted:i would stop posting about this if even one of the people who are like 'the rhaenys scene fine stop complaining' would even vaguely understand that it isn't about the character motivation it's about the direction and editing of the scene. it's framed as this BIG moment, and it actually means absolutely nothing that couldn't have been achieved with her not bursting through the dragonpit floor. she's leaving? cool makes sense. doesn't want to kill her family? fine, i guess that makes sense. but she bursts through the floor killing probably hundreds of people to do nothing and leave. that...doesn't make sense, unless you suddenly adopt the new attitude that rhaenys is a complete idiot, which is completely contrary to her portrayal in the show and especially in this scene. Yes, I get your point, but this is also her big focus episode in the show's first season. It's when the show tells you who she basically is. And she's the kind of person who'll make big shows of power, and is fine with mass murder, but she's capably of bottling her coups de gras at the last second because she's projecting her own maternal grief on another mother. the rhaenys scene fine stop complaining
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Oct 20, 2022 05:19
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roomtone posted:i would stop posting about this if even one of the people who are like 'the rhaenys scene fine stop complaining' would even vaguely understand that it isn't about the character motivation it's about the direction and editing of the scene. it's framed as this BIG moment, and it actually means absolutely nothing that couldn't have been achieved with her not bursting through the dragonpit floor. she's leaving? cool makes sense. doesn't want to kill her family? fine, i guess that makes sense. but she bursts through the floor killing probably hundreds of people to do nothing and leave. that...doesn't make sense, unless you suddenly adopt the new attitude that rhaenys is a complete idiot, which is completely contrary to her portrayal in the show and especially in this scene. The scene is good though. It is a big moment and crashing the coronation obviously has a different effect than sneaking out the back door. I don't see how it doesn't make sense for the character, especially in an episode that literally has someone talk about how the nobles play their games and ignore the smallfolk. I don't know what you mean by "they are willing to fake us out".
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Oct 20, 2022 05:34
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I'm catching up so sorry if this was covered, but I'm a little confused by the chronology between the last two episodes. I thought that the scene where Viserys mistakenly told Alicent the prophecy happened immediately after the family dinner, with his death happening the next morning. But then everyone keeps talking as though Rhaenyra and Daemon are already back at Dragonstone. But they traveled to King's Landing by carriage, not dragon back, so like... how far outside the city gates can they really be? Did more time elapse between some scenes than I realized?
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Oct 20, 2022 05:42
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Tender Bender posted:The scene is good though. It is a big moment and crashing the coronation obviously has a different effect than sneaking out the back door. I don't see how it doesn't make sense for the character, especially in an episode that literally has someone talk about how the nobles play their games and ignore the smallfolk. fake us out as in whoah what is rhaenys gotta do here!!! she's gonna do something! then she does nothing. whoah is homelander gonna go nuts in season 2? here's the scene! just a dream tho *wink* next time when rhaenys actually does something i'll be like, oh, okay she actually did something this time. well, about time. instead of the effect they ruined for this episode. i covered the rest already. roomtone fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Oct 20, 2022 |
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Oct 20, 2022 05:52
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Xiahou Dun posted:Like, every time I read one of these things where someone has a problem with how a character acts because they disagree with it, I gotta ask : do you expect to agree with all characters? Because they're allowed, even encouraged, to make choices we disagree with. This is one of the main problems with discussing shows here. People get really attached to what that character should have done, forgetting that the character isn't privy to seeing everything the viewer does. To us, as viewers, of course Rhaenys should have killed the entire family right then and there. It would have ended the whole coup right then, her family would have been better off for it, etc. But she doesn't know all the info we have. She hardly has any, really, because she normally lives far away and doesn't really have the connection that any other member of the royal family has. Bugblatter posted:I'm catching up so sorry if this was covered, but I'm a little confused by the chronology between the last two episodes. No you pretty much have it. Dinner happens, prophecy, king dies that night. They discover his body, the whole "where in the world is Aegon Targaryen" episode within an episode takes place, night happens again, coronation happens the following day.
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Oct 20, 2022 05:55
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Bugblatter posted:I'm catching up so sorry if this was covered, but I'm a little confused by the chronology between the last two episodes. I think we're supposed to understand that what with the whole family fight they wanted to get back home malto pronto, so they took their dragons (who were around off camera) and flew those to Dragonstone and let their baggage lag behind. (Meanwhile yeah they arrived by carriage but of course they also brought all of their dragons along, they're god drat dragonriders and I assume dragonriders generally stick at least to the same landmass as their dragons if reasonably practical.) I guess. It's sloppy, I get you. But I also don't really want them to get too into the nitty gritty of transportation logistics there and ruin Viserys' whole denouement. Just like I want to know that the characters are all taking care of their horses and they show how much of a pain that is, but I don't actually want to see Criston Cole curry a horse in real time. It doesn't annoy me because it's a mildly fussy detail. And I hated late GoT's stupid main map fast travel bullshit, but mostly because it ruined the stakes and made the huge world seem trivial. Here it's actually letting us keep the framing around the real stakes, and it's already been pretty well established that Dragonstone is pretty nearby and easy to get to. So yeah, fair point. Hopefully they don't abuse that.
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Oct 20, 2022 05:57
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roomtone posted:fake us out as in whoah what is rhaenys gotta do here!!! she's gonna do something! then she does nothing. whoah is homelander gonna go nuts in season 2? here's the scene! just a dream tho *wink* I don't really agree with this read, unless you consider every time a character leaves a scene without killing everyone else in the scene a "fakeout". Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Oct 20, 2022 |
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Oct 20, 2022 06:00
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I think they arrived and left the normal way, by boat (not via the city gates) It just doesn't occur to Otto that they can, say, catch up to their ships on dragon and roast them (or the distance is short enough that they'd already arrived)
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Oct 20, 2022 06:00
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Tender Bender posted:I don't really agree with this read, unless you consider every time a character leaves a scene without killing everyone else in the scene a "fakeout". God I'm the loving master of fakeouts then.
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Oct 20, 2022 06:01
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Tender Bender posted:I don't really agree with this read, unless you consider every time a character leaves a scene without killing everyone else in the scene a "fakeout". ...she had the dragon scream in their face. that doesn't happen every scene. i mean they had a little tease with westerling and criston earlier in the episode like oh ho ho not yet, but they didn't push it and it didn't really feel critical to the scene. that's for later. that's absolutely fine. that's not the rhaenys scene.
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Oct 20, 2022 06:04
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I suppose the conflict just comes down to a) Please, keep watching our show. We'll do anything. We will give you a taste of the thing you think you are here for but please don't make us give it all up right away, we need our jobs to continue. b) This is the story we've got. Don't give a poo poo if you get bored, you'll realise it's good later. Just watch it and we'll get to the exciting poo poo when it happens. I want b.
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Oct 20, 2022 06:37
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So I wanted to briefly talk about the Larys foot thing because I think some people might be missing the point of the scene. It is a continuation of the theme of the episode that Alicent has to use very dodgy men to maintain her own power, despite her own disgust with these people. It's not just about her feet. He's forcing the most powerful woman in Westeros to degrade herself for him and making her stay in the room while he pleasures himself. He's doing it for power over her. The feet are not the point of the scene, they're just the thematically appropriate sex act he is forcing upon her. Larys as a spymaster and the lord confessor could obviously see feet anywhere anytime. He's got dungeons with free reign and wealth. He doesn't have an access problem. He specifically wants to demonstrate that he holds power over Alicent and for her to know it. Otherwise he could just spy on her or whatever, and see those apparently attractive feet. Works back towards him feeling pleased that he and Alicent share a secret about his kinslaying. The more she relies on him, the more he feels he can get her to do whatever he wants. The scene works for the sinking feeling of dread for Alicent and horror at Larys kinda whatever he makes her do there. He's terrifying and a monster for how that scene works. The dude is like cursed genie that keeps telling Alicent to make a wish, and she basically is paying with a piece of herself every time she gives in and makes one. EDIT: And she has to depend on men like Larys, or Cole, because they are the only kind of people that showing her loyalty in a court dominated by her father. They're both dogs that she keeps on weird sexual leashes and they both want something from her that she does not want to give. EDIT2: Like I cannot stress enough that Larys is a loving monster. His weird introvert demeanor, his kind of soft-tone way of speaking, and his lame leg makes him look very non-threatening, but almost everything we've seen him do in the show is incredibly hosed up. Anonymous Zebra fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Oct 20, 2022 |
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Oct 20, 2022 06:49
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roomtone posted:I suppose the conflict just comes down to I'm entirely with you and I would love that, but we will never ever get that show at this level so long as its profit driven. Now let me sell you my pitch for the HotDBC.
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Oct 20, 2022 06:50
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roomtone posted:I suppose the conflict just comes down to Maybe I'm misreading this, but is the intent here that dragons only show up on screen when they do something big, splashy and dramatic that I don't pretend to know the lay-out of the dragon pens or whatever and the argument about the dragon logistics seems mostly silly to me, so I guess I'm in the "power of cool in writing" demographic. But the conversation around Rhaenys's thinking here makes sense to me. For her own reasons she doesn't want to burn everyone on the dais to a crisp, but she wants them to remember she has a dragon, too, and gently caress you that's why. It's perfectly in-universe writing that commoners are NPCs. That's the same basis for thinking that Ser Volcel only hosed Rhaenyra once and that was enough to snap him into full psycho mode, IMO. It makes sense in-universe, and having read that line of thinking I'm prepared to accept that I was caught in my own 20th century sensibilities when I too assumed Rhaenyra and him had been banging for a while before the, erm, proposal scene. Ser Volcel straight up merking alzhaimer patients because he's cranky that morning makes sense in that light, too, even if he seems outright unhinged from the viewer's perspective. The dragons are meant to be nuke equivalents, sure, but they're also people's... Pets? Companions? Matt Daemon's wife's suicide by dragon makes sense, but at least I interpreted that scene was also showing us that the dragon understood what was being asked, and did it with what understanding a fire-breathing doggo would have about euthanasia.
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Oct 20, 2022 06:54
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Anonymous Zebra posted:So I wanted to briefly talk about the Larys foot thing because I think some people might be missing the point of the scene. It is a continuation of the theme of the episode that Alicent has to use very dodgy men to maintain her own power, despite her own disgust with these people. It's not just about her feet. He's forcing the most powerful woman in Westeros to degrade herself for him and making her stay in the room while he pleasures himself. He's doing it for power over her. The feet are not the point of the scene, they're just the thematically appropriate sex act he is forcing upon her. yeah, her whole deal is that she's in a gilded cage
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Oct 20, 2022 06:59
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the dragon scene was bad rear end.
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Oct 20, 2022 07:23
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The real deciding factor for the dragon scene is whether everyone in front of the dragon is deaf from now on.
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Oct 20, 2022 07:51
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Anonymous Zebra posted:So I wanted to briefly talk about the Larys foot thing because I think some people might be missing the point of the scene. It is a continuation of the theme of the episode that Alicent has to use very dodgy men to maintain her own power, despite her own disgust with these people. It's not just about her feet. He's forcing the most powerful woman in Westeros to degrade herself for him and making her stay in the room while he pleasures himself. He's doing it for power over her. The feet are not the point of the scene, they're just the thematically appropriate sex act he is forcing upon her. This is my read on it as well but I’m genuinely worried the writers didn’t intend this considering other choices made this episode. Time will tell!
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Oct 20, 2022 08:52
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You have to add some more sick scene for Lary to demonstrate that he likes to mess with people's heads instead of just like foot. While your interpretation if Lary's feet might be correct. It's other scenes like I mention before, where he offered to take one of Rhaenyer's boys eyes made me think he is just stupid.
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Oct 20, 2022 09:14
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Open Source Idiom posted:Yes, I get your point, but this is also her big focus episode in the show's first season. It's when the show tells you who she basically is. And she's the kind of person who'll make big shows of power, and is fine with mass murder, but she's capably of bottling her coups de gras at the last second because she's projecting her own maternal grief on another mother. Agreed. Rhaenys was pissed and wanted revenge, but changed her mind at the last moment because of Alicent. It’s fine to be frustrated that she didn’t follow through as a viewer. Still, it’s not hard to see why she’d want to torch everyone, but decide against it.
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Oct 20, 2022 09:52
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I thought the Rhaenys scene was a cool way to show that they can coronate people with Aegon's crown and sword even name and all the other legitimate symbols...I doesn't matter one bit, only dragons do. I don't think they even named this dragon before (Meleys, the Red Queen), and it could have ended it all right there.
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Oct 20, 2022 |
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Oct 20, 2022 10:37
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Xiahou Dun posted:I'm entirely with you and I would love that, but we will never ever get that show at this level so long as its profit driven.
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Oct 20, 2022 10:48
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I wish episode 9 had been almost entirely set in the council chamber, with Beesbury's corpse present the whole time and the occasional cut to Viserys' slowly rotting, stinking corpse in his bed.
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Oct 20, 2022 11:00
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It’s completely unrealistic that Rhaenys wasn’t crushed to death when her dragon burst through the floor.
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Oct 20, 2022 12:02
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DarkCrawler posted:I thought the Rhaenys scene was a cool way to show that they can coronate people with Aegon's crown and sword even name and all the other legitimate symbols...I doesn't matter one bit, only dragons do. I don't think they even named this dragon before (Meleys, the Red Queen), and it could have ended it all right there. She says before that she’s not leaving the city without Meleys, but it probably won’t be picked up by everyone because it was during the crowd all pushing towards the pit.
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Oct 20, 2022 12:37
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Rappaport posted:Maybe I'm misreading this, but is the intent here that dragons only show up on screen when they do something big, splashy and dramatic that Yeah, this. It never even occurred to me that a complaint about the Rhaenys scene would be "She did nothing." Aegon's coronation was hosed up, a lot of commoners died, Rhaenys freed herself and swore to Rhaenyra's cause in an incredibly dramatic and public way. I also think the many commoners being killed isn't ignored by the show, and is going to be important later. They had a character expressing anger about how the people suffer while the nobles play their games in the same episode.
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Oct 20, 2022 12:48
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bobjr posted:She says before that she’s not leaving the city without Meleys, but it probably won’t be picked up by everyone because it was during the crowd all pushing towards the pit. This is why I watch with subtitles. Sure, sometimes they cover up an actor's face during an emotional moment, but you never miss out on important throwaway lines! Plus it helps you remember how names are spelled.
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Oct 20, 2022 12:52
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Man, the later seasons of GoT really did give some people some kind of fantasy tv PTSD, huh.
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Oct 20, 2022 12:53
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wizardofloneliness posted:Man, the later seasons of GoT really did give some people some kind of fantasy tv PTSD, huh. There seems to be an overcorrection from some folks, where because GOT S7-S8 relied on empty spectacle instead of writing, that now any kind of spectacle is Bad and should be avoided if at all possible. "They could have just had her fly off in the background" okay but why would that be inherently better. The narrative that there's some nefarious executives who made them include a dragon scene (which, as far as I can tell, is rooted in absolutely nothing) is interesting because it mirrors what's happening in the show, where characters smear something with an apparent lack of legitimacy to support their argument against it. It's a bastard scene.
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Oct 20, 2022 12:59
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I thought it was a strong scene.
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Oct 20, 2022 13:25
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Also I’m sure more viewers would call Daemon’s dragon a nickname based on its long neck or something instead of remembering its actual name.
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Oct 20, 2022 13:37
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Tender Bender posted:There seems to be an overcorrection from some folks, where because GOT S7-S8 relied on empty spectacle instead of writing, that now any kind of spectacle is Bad and should be avoided if at all possible. "They could have just had her fly off in the background" okay but why would that be inherently better. It's a stupid scene. If she's not willing to fry them, looking like the bad guy by killing hundreds at the coronation certainly isn't gonna help the cause of Rhaenyra. And the character has not shown herself to be either an idiot or impulsive so it's a stupid loving scene. I'm all for cool scenes with dragons but this particular one is dumb
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Oct 20, 2022 13:42
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Nail Rat posted:It's a stupid scene. If she's not willing to fry them, looking like the bad guy by killing hundreds at the coronation certainly isn't gonna help the cause of Rhaenyra. And the character has not shown herself to be either an idiot or impulsive so it's a stupid loving scene. Why couldn't she have changed her mind?
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Oct 20, 2022 14:34
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CapnAndy posted:Three primary sources: a maester, a septon, and a court fool. The maester was up to his neck in it and is dictating after the fact, so he's mostly trustworthy but has a tendency to make his side in general and himself in particular look good, the septon was there the least and has a tendency to make everyone more pious and kind, and the fool was there for things that took place in courts but was hardly invited to council meetings and was ignored because, y'know, fool, and then he pops up afterwards with a book all about how he's actually incredibly smart and everyone loved him and he was the person making all the decisions and also everyone else was just constantly loving and/or murdering each other in the absolute vilest ways at all times. If it's your sort of humor, it's pretty funny that you can practically see the fourth character, the in-universe maester collecting all these sources and trying to present an objective truth, grinding his teeth every time he has to admit that for all the typical nonsense, the fool's version of events is the most plausible. Please tell me this isn't worth reading. I'm thoroughly enjoying this stupid Dragon House show and gently caress, that actually sounds like a very interesting setup for a book, but I swore I wouldn't spend another dime on anything gurm until he finishes Winds of Winter (and even then i might just pirate it because gently caress gurm). Nail Rat posted:It's a stupid scene. If she's not willing to fry them, looking like the bad guy by killing hundreds at the coronation certainly isn't gonna help the cause of Rhaenyra. And the character has not shown herself to be either an idiot or impulsive so it's a stupid loving scene. Yeah, it's not dumb because of characters not following tactical realism or whatever, it's just that the scene shouldn't have happened. The only way it makes any sense at all is if she flew over there intending to kill them, and just kinda couldn't go through with it once she saw them all on the stage, even after she's just murdered a hundred innocent people. Which, okay, fine, I can accept that she had a change of heart, but it makes the scene feel somewhat manipulative on the part of the producers -- she JUST SO HAPPENS to make a huge spectacle at the end of the episode but stops short of killing any named characters. It feels contrived.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:49
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wait so is the dragonpit built right under the sept or what are there secret dragon tunnels under the city
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Oct 20, 2022 14:55
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Phenotype posted:Please tell me this isn't worth reading. I'm thoroughly enjoying this stupid Dragon House show and gently caress, that actually sounds like a very interesting setup for a book, but I swore I wouldn't spend another dime on anything gurm until he finishes Winds of Winter (and even then i might just pirate it because gently caress gurm). She didn't fly over there, she was in the dragon pit already and burst out of the floor. On her way out she made a huge show of force, deliberately, after being belittled and shoved around by the Hightowers for the rest of the episode. I don't think she's dumb for killing a bunch of commoners, but I do think she is inconsiderate of their lives as collateral damage in the Game of Dragon Houses, which is a recurring theme throughout the franchise. Without getting into F&B book stuff I don't think the show is going to forget that either. Like yes she didn't have to do that. But she did. I feel like the scene makes sense for the character, thematically it rules, and it swings the narrative momentum towards Rhaenyra's faction after an entire episode focused exclusively on the Hightower clan putting their intricate plans in place.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:58
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Bro Dad posted:wait so is the dragonpit built right under the sept or what There is no Grand Sept in Kings Landing at this point in history. They had the coronation at the Dragonpit.
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Oct 20, 2022 15:01
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The population of King's Landing has, consistently, been the one thing that's faceless, inconsequential, irrelevant and both presented as that to us and treated as that by the characters. The only comments we get consistently is how the city smells like garbage by everyone. Whenever a character surges from the low ranks of King's Landing, they will probably die in a fire. They get in fact exploded on the reg, and the only time someone seems to care otherwise is Jaime "to be fair I never cared about the people" during his talk to Brienne in the bath.
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Oct 20, 2022 15:02
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At first I didn't like the dragon scene because the logistic of having the dragon lair underneath the fantasy Madison Square Garden is impossible. But I thought about it. I would have been fine with it if show set it up narratively, like a 10 sec scene from ep 2 of parking a living A10 bomber underneath the church and a septon comment, yes the building is ridiculous.
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Oct 20, 2022 15:02
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