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MassRafTer posted:Start watching the Stardom 5 Star GP. This 1000% That whole tournament was astonishing from start to finish and the final show was absolutely incredible
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Oct 19, 2022 23:21
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forkboy84 posted:I know this is a joke but I decided to look it up and apparently they call it viking food in tribute of the origins of smörgåsbord. Well, that's what google translate of the Japanese wikipedia page of smörgåsbord says anyway. Viking is buffet but I never took the time to figure out why. So now I know
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Oct 19, 2022 23:27
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General notes on Japanese storytelling that I didn't see covered: - No hot tags (or subdued hot tags). Perhaps because they do so many of them, almost no tag matches in Japan follow the standard western tag match formula where the point and centrepiece of the whole match is an extended heel heat segment with a babyface in peril and then an explosive babyface tag that demolishes the heels. - Very few apron spots. in AEW these seem to happen in every match, in Japan you rarely see them (and rightfully so, apron spots have lost all their power in over use). - Everyone is on the show. If there's a show, generally you'll see everyone in the roster on the card. This leads to a lot of the multi-man tags mentioned above but also means there's greater fluidity on the card, it's not unusual to see main eventers slumming it in the midcard or even lower for a few shows. - Greater emphasis on seniority and mentorship. AEW has a little taste of this but it pervades almost all Japanese booking and storytelling. It has also historically killed promotions when they've squandered the next generation. At the moment nearly every promotion has a good handle on it except NOAH. - More guests and freelancers. In general, you'll usually see one or two guests and freelancers appear to freshen up a card or feud at a higher rate what major American promotions do. - While wrestling ideology (i.e. what is wrestling? what is good wrestling? what is the best/most powerful wrestling style?) has been a major factor in AEW's longest running feud this year, but those type of stories have been much less emphasised than in Japan where each promotion might have one or two wrestling ideology feuds a year. - Better comedy wrestlers, matches and promotions and greater emphasis on them.
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Oct 19, 2022 23:45
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I dunno, there seems to be an apron spot on every show.
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Oct 19, 2022 23:48
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forkboy84 posted:I dunno, there seems to be an apron spot on every show. Not in ChocoPro edit: but more seriously once a show is a lot less than the amount AEW does them fez_machine fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Oct 20, 2022 |
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Oct 19, 2022 23:54
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Wrestling ideology feuds are Tanahashi's bread and butter. He loves that poo poo
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Oct 20, 2022 00:03
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GEORGE W BUSHI posted:Wrestling ideology feuds are Tanahashi's bread and butter. He loves that poo poo He also does a lot of "I'm probably the best wrestler of the last 20 years, but now i'm old and lovely. How could I possibly compete aginst this next generation?" The answer is of course the support of us the fans gets him through, GO ACE 
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Oct 20, 2022 00:18
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SG Bamboo posted:He also does a lot of "I'm probably the best wrestler of the last 20 years, but now i'm old and lovely. How could I possibly compete aginst this next generation?" Sometimes he even does both at the same time like the Kenny feud
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Oct 20, 2022 00:39
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Yeah, like 80% of Tanahashi matches now are "he's too old and slow and broken to beat this young gun... but what if, for one night, he can be the ACE again?"
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Oct 20, 2022 02:10
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fez_machine posted:- Better comedy wrestlers, matches and promotions and greater emphasis on them.
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Oct 20, 2022 02:46
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I've only seen Tanahashi's old man !matches and he's still the ace to me. He must have been unbelievable when he was younger... Or is he the best he's ever been?
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Oct 20, 2022 02:47
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I only started watching in late 2012 when Tana was already in the back half of his 30s, but I was instantly onboard with why this guy held the belt and all the defence records (only to have them usurped by Okada who was on a whole other level), guy was a phenomenon. I've seen random matches of his during his earlier work and he's definitely a step quicker back then, but he has developed such great sense of how to structure matches to get the absolute most out of himselfm his opponent, and the fans. The 2012-16 portion of his feud with Okada remains the gold standard of in-ring storytelling for me. Every match is fantastic but if you watch them all in order there are fantastic throughlines of them learning each others strengths, Tana taking the low road when he finally admits to himself that Okada is the superior athlete, and finally Okada's breaking the last stumbling block and beating Tanahashi on the biggest stage Until the day I die the image of Okada breaking down sobbing as he's being led away after losing at WK9 will stick with me. Gedo is trying to get his perfect son through falling at the final hurdle and Tanahashi stands proud in the ring as champion and tells Okada the same words he told him three years earlier to the day, that the IWGP title is still far beyond him
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Oct 20, 2022 03:06
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Mrenda posted:What's the Japanese for smörgåsbord? Daryl Surat in the PSP.tv thread streams some top matches every week across a wide variety of promotions, often Japanese, and they're kept available all week in case you can't watch it live.
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Oct 20, 2022 03:15
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What I love about Japanese promotions is they love tournaments. If you've ever read any shounen battle manga, that's pretty much it. They can do single-elimination or round robin brackets (New Japan and DDT do both formats every year in different seasons) and the prize usually is a shot at the top title. New Japan is currently running a tournament to crown the first NJPW World TV Champion, and with matches having a 15-minute time limit it makes for some nice short watching so you might want to check that. EDIT: They're up for free! Here's one that a lot of people have been raving about : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5s6jEC5DU8 Lily Catts fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Oct 20, 2022 |
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Oct 20, 2022 03:52
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One element of Japanese wrestling that's endlessly refreshing to me is that it doesn't feel like a constant advertisement for itself. Mainstream American wrestling feels like it interrupts itself every 30 seconds to tell you "HERE'S WHAT'S COMING NEXT, PLEASE DON'T LEAVE", whether it's upcoming matches, a main angle, another upcoming show, or a PPV. I realize some of that is Network mandates, but even AEW feels like they're deathly afraid someone might change the channel if whatever they're seeing right now isn't their thing. Japanese wrestling puts their ads on the mat, and that's it. You get to focus on the event you're watching when you're watching it. By contrast, Lucha is sort of a weird mix of this where they don't constantly talk about it, but they'll cut to a wide shot of the advertiser on the screen every 5 seconds.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:34
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Maybe this is a silly thing to complain about, but when I was a kid, I was bothered by commentators talking about nothing but main-event angles during opening and midcard matches. It's like they're telling me not to care about the match I'm watching. At least notice when somebody does a big spot.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:48
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I've also noticed over the years that in general, Japanese wrestling is less about good vs evil (like it is in the west) and more about combat and rivalries and getting stronger and proving that you're the best. Babyfaces in Japan will often do things that are considered heelish in the west but nobody cares because it's within the rules and they're trying to win. The heelish stuff in Japan is always super blatant like Momo Watanabe showing the entire crowd a huge wrench before stuffing in her boot and kicking someone in the head while her teammates distract the refHalloween Jack posted:Maybe this is a silly thing to complain about, but when I was a kid, I was bothered by commentators talking about nothing but main-event angles during opening and midcard matches. It's like they're telling me not to care about the match I'm watching. At least notice when somebody does a big spot. There are a lot of reasons I stopped watching WWE but this is one of the top 5 if not top 3. I'm trying to watch talented midcarders I like make the most of the 8 minutes they were given and all the commentary team can talk about is the main event later. gently caress YOU Elephant Ambush fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Oct 20, 2022 |
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Oct 20, 2022 19:49
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Elephant Ambush posted:There are a lot of reasons I stopped watching WWE but this is one of the top 5 if not top 3. I'm trying to watch talented midcarders I like make the most of the 8 minutes they were given and all the commentary team can talk about is the main event later. gently caress YOU WWE was as bad about it as WCW was, I feel like. Sting and William Regal could be having a baller match and it would be "HOGAN'S LIMO IS HERE BUT NOBODY HAS EMERGED WE WILL KEEP YOU POSTED!"
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Oct 20, 2022 20:00
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Rey Mysterio is jumping...or something OH MY GOD Brain does it look like there's a 4th guy who in the limo?!?!
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Oct 20, 2022 20:31
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Elephant Ambush posted:I've also noticed over the years that in general, Japanese wrestling is less about good vs evil (like it is in the west)  Halloween Jack posted:Maybe this is a silly thing to complain about, but when I was a kid, I was bothered by commentators talking about nothing but main-event angles during opening and midcard matches. It's like they're telling me not to care about the match I'm watching. At least notice when somebody does a big spot.
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Oct 20, 2022 20:54
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Halloween Jack posted:Maybe this is a silly thing to complain about, but when I was a kid, I was bothered by commentators talking about nothing but main-event angles during opening and midcard matches. It's like they're telling me not to care about the match I'm watching. At least notice when somebody does a big spot. Eh, even Japanese companies do this, especially New Japan if the opener is between two Young Lions. I still remember one instance during the G1 a few years back where Kelly, Rocky and Callis were doing just that, hyping the main event during the opener and Rocky had to stop the other two because he realised the match actually ruled and they should be paying attention.
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Oct 20, 2022 21:02
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Bonk posted:Except for the King of Darkness, EVIL. ironic since the only reason wwe hired him was because steph thought he was handsome lol
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Oct 20, 2022 21:08
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Halloween Jack posted:Maybe this is a silly thing to complain about, but when I was a kid, I was bothered by commentators talking about nothing but main-event angles during opening and midcard matches. It's like they're telling me not to care about the match I'm watching. At least notice when somebody does a big spot. This pissed me off and was, as I recall, most notable and terrible in WCW. Here I was watching incredible cruiserweights doing amazing things and the commentators are just talking about Hogan. I’m sure it was just as bad in WWF at the time, but the undercard matches weren’t typically as good as what WCW had going on most of the time.
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Oct 20, 2022 21:13
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Elephant Ambush posted:I've also noticed over the years that in general, Japanese wrestling is less about good vs evil (like it is in the west) and more about combat and rivalries and getting stronger and proving that you're the best. This is really more of a recent thing, historically Japanese wrestling was built around the brave national hero fending off the menacing foreigners. Rikidozan and Inoki (among many others) made entire careers about being good vs. evil. Stan Hansen and Vader made a lot of money in that country being the big scary Americans. Even in modern times you still see a lot of promotions use heel foreigners for easy heat, the Bullet Club being maybe the most notable example. Gedo and Dick Togo grew up worshipping Memphis and that influence is all over the New Japan product, for better or worse. I like puro a lot but it can be just as broad and trashy as American wrestling when it wants to be. Benne fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Oct 20, 2022 |
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Oct 20, 2022 23:30
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I don't know if it's "trashy" in wrestling, it very well could be but there's a definite broader Japanese movement around them losing their cultural identity and giving into Western ideals. It goes back to at least the transition between the 19th and 20th centuries. Deaths of Emperors. Etc. This is a common refrain in a lot of countries. In some you have places wanting to regain what they were from before they were colonised. And in other countries you have a society that's not resisting immigration, per se, rather a hegemonic culture. There can absolutely be white fright, and all that level of racism involved with The Evil Foreigner image, but there's also some valid ideas of a domineering influence from what can really only be a capitalistic control stripping away the valued culture of a place. You get jobs to employ people, but those jobs are in seventy billion Starbucks on every corner. It's something valid to deal with.
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Oct 20, 2022 23:45
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Hell even classic peak Joshi wrestling was school yard stories of pure hearted earnest faces against villainous delinquent heels you can't look at Oz Academy and tell me good and evil isn't a major factor there the influence of Sakuraism has meant that most modern Joshi has more tweeners, goblins, and situational heels. But even then there's The French in tjpw and Odeo Tai in Stardom
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Oct 20, 2022 23:46
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fez_machine posted:Hell even classic peak Joshi wrestling was school yard stories of pure hearted earnest faces against villainous delinquent heels And even before thing you had one of the biggest angles ever with the Crush Gals versus Dump's Gokuaku Domei.
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Oct 21, 2022 01:01
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Mrenda posted:I don't know if it's "trashy" in wrestling, it very well could be but there's a definite broader Japanese movement around them losing their cultural identity and giving into Western ideals. It goes back to at least the transition between the 19th and 20th centuries. Deaths of Emperors. Etc. I feel like New Japan has been irrevocably transformed by Bullet Club's formation, they've always had that big foreigner vs valiant Japanese wrestler angle in their pocket, but a stable full of foreign heels who do whatever it takes to win matches and hold all the championships has generated them so much heat (and merch sales) that they've become a permanent fixture in the promotion. No other foreign heel stables are as dominant.
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Oct 21, 2022 06:10
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Bullet Club have slid up and down the face-heel spectrum like a lot of other New Japan factions have and the foreign aspect of it has been diluted a lot since its origins. I liked what NJPW did at the G1 finals with selling tickets in dedicated faction support sections. They should keep doing that and play into the sports team aspect of it.
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Oct 21, 2022 06:28
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The whole idea behind the original Bullet Club was this gang of obnoxious Westerners (plus Yujiro for some reason) spitting on Japanese traditions, which fits right in line with the historical use of foreign wrestlers in that country. I do wonder what might've happened if they never regrouped after Devitt lost his title shot and left the territory, maybe they quietly fizzle out like most invasion angles. It's very telling that Devitt is the only BC leader who never actually won the world title. But AJ Styles fell into their laps, the Young Bucks took off as merch-selling machines, Kenny Omega joined right at the time he was maturing into one of the best wrestlers in the world, and the group took on a completely different identity that was printing money for both themselves and the company. It was a whole lot of happy accidents that led them to that point.
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Oct 21, 2022 07:15
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GEORGE W BUSHI posted:Bullet Club have slid up and down the face-heel spectrum like a lot of other New Japan factions have and the foreign aspect of it has been diluted a lot since its origins. I liked what NJPW did at the G1 finals with selling tickets in dedicated faction support sections. They should keep doing that and play into the sports team aspect of it.
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Oct 21, 2022 07:37
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In terms of where to start watching, I would say to pick the next or last big show of a promotion you're interested in and go from there. For New Japan that would be going back a week to Declaration Of Power, which was a big English commentary show.
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Oct 21, 2022 12:32
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Why do people bother complaining about music that doesn't quite fit being used in wrestling? The first loving Wrestlemania opened with "Easy Lover" by Phil Collins.
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Oct 21, 2022 16:35
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i don't think i've ever seen that specific complaint, which is wild since i thought i've seen people complain about everything regarding wresting over the years. do you have any specifics? themes people don't think fit the wrestlers that use them, maybe?
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Oct 21, 2022 16:39
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I may have just had a small stroke typing that because at the moment I can't think of anything.
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Oct 21, 2022 16:43
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Pope Corky the IX posted:Why do people bother complaining about music that doesn't quite fit being used in wrestling? The first loving Wrestlemania opened with "Easy Lover" by Phil Collins. I love in UFC where it's just a sport and they aren't playing characters and you can just choose any song you want. Some people come out to the weirdest stuff but people don't complain about "that's lame/doesn't fit their character". I could see if somebody would get upset by like Taker coming out to WAP but in general I think people can walk out to whatever the hell they want as long as it doesn't completely throw off their character. Someone like AJ Styles could come out to anything and it'd work imo
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Oct 21, 2022 16:44
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Kvlt! posted:I love in UFC where it's just a sport and they aren't playing characters and you can just choose any song you want. Some people come out to the weirdest stuff but people don't complain about "that's lame/doesn't fit their character" I do appreciate that. I'd pick something like the old Post Raisin Bran song.
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Oct 21, 2022 16:45
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Are you specifically seeing complaints about music that doesn’t fit, or is it music people think sucks rear end as a theme? For some reason I’m reminded of the stories about Dana White being salty that Mickey Gall wanted to walk out to Hey Mickey because it wasn’t ‘hard’ enough.
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Oct 21, 2022 16:48
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Tony Ferguson's walkout song is unbeaten https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTKshxKVxN0
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Oct 21, 2022 16:48
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I can recall people complaining about themes that don't fit or songs being used in general (like for a PPV) but now all I can think of is a bunch of examples from the 80s.
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Oct 21, 2022 16:50
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