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TheCenturion posted:Yes. This is addressed on page 182 of the Requiem 1e rulebook, where it points out the differences between Morality and Humanity. We're talking about art. If I point at the Mona Lisa and say "that's a woman" and you say "actually, that's some pigment on canvas" I suppose you aren't wrong, but neither am I. We're simply operating on different frequencies. In the World of Darkness game system, humans begin with a trait called Morality (or Integrity. wait, 2E mortals don't have Morality! holy poo poo, they're not human!) and replace it with a trait called Morality upon being Embraced. But, also, humans begin with a health track like [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] but get a health track like [X][X][X][ ][ ][ ][ ] after getting stabbed. Stuff happening to a human in game changes that human's stats. So what?
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Oct 22, 2022 00:30
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Kavak posted:Okay- people who aren't involved in the current debate, what aspects of White Wolf vampirism do you like to houserule out or in? I need to know if anyone used Requiem 1st Predator's Taint RAW besides the moderated chats. You could probably reason that you get acclimated to common, small, controlled fires (candles, your lighter).
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Oct 22, 2022 02:17
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Schwarzwald posted:This is the most baffling response you could have given me. I am baffled. You're right. Different people play games for different reasons, and as long as you're getting what you want out of the game, great. Ferrinus posted:We're talking about art. If I point at the Mona Lisa and say "that's a woman" and you say "actually, that's some pigment on canvas" I suppose you aren't wrong, but neither am I. We're simply operating on different frequencies. Ok.
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Oct 22, 2022 03:15
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Good to hear that we're in agreement: "human"' either does not hinge on specific game stats, since stats change in play (do humans have a dot in each attribute? what if an industrial accident reduces one to strength 0?) or it's a totally tautological and therefore meaningless descriptor (you're only human if you have the zarfglar trait, and zarfglar's chief effect is to make you count as human). Now that we understand humanity as either malleable or meaningless, we can consider the question of rights, responsibilities, social roles, etc. for people who can feel pain, express desires, and mobilize politically totally regardless of their """human""" status.
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Oct 22, 2022 03:41
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Nessus posted:I tend to assume auto-successes on a lot of really elementary things that RAW would require a frenzy roll. Like a vampire smoking a cigarette seems deeply rooted in the fiction and the idea that they're constantly doing a crapshoot or blowing a WP seems very weird to me, particularly as most vampires would have been living in either darkness or candle/torch/lamplight for, potentially, thousands of years. Yeah this is something I'd maybe make a player roll for only if they were down to 1 or 2 bp
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Oct 22, 2022 03:55
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I think that this conversation has run its course, let's not belabor the point. Agreeing to disagree is perfectly acceptable, and no one will score internet cred by continuing to push it. edit: This is in response to the vampire/humanity exchange that has taken up the last several pages of the thread. Podima fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Oct 22, 2022 |
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Oct 22, 2022 03:57
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Making vampires roll for frenzy just to light a cigarette (even if failure just means you hiss and immediately crush the cigarette rather than run out of the room and remain unplayable for the next hour) is good because it confirms that the vampires who smoke anyway are REALLY hardcore.
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Oct 22, 2022 04:05
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I always give them a bonus to resist frenzy to lighters if they’re wearing a black trench coat and carrying a katana. I’ve honestly always made people make those rolls in stressful situations and just ignored them otherwise. It has caused vampires to find other lighter solutions that are just hot and not an open flame.
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Oct 22, 2022 04:17
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I don't know if this has been posted yet but the V5 core rulebook and two sourcebooks are on Humble Bundle (along with some video games) https://www.humblebundle.com/world-darkness-collection
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Oct 22, 2022 08:20
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tesseract fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Feb 10, 2023 |
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Oct 22, 2022 10:03
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Here’s another recap from our campaign about a coterie Camarilla kindred in New York at night that is not affiliated with any streams! This time we started the pre-written adventure Family from Trails of Ash and Bones, so spoilers ahead. As usual our coterie consists of Thomas the Triad Tremere, Benedict the GOP Ventrue and Augustus the Amish Banu Haqim. We started with a brief history lesson about the Battle for New York and how even that struggle was, until a neutral party decided to back the Camarilla and help the Ivory Tower drive Sabbat from the city. This favor was not forgotten, it became a debt, and now two decades later, Donatello Giovanni of the Hecata has come to collect it. The coterie has been assigned to this task. The meeting took place at JFK airport. The characters have not met or heard of Donatello before, but I’m glad some of the players recognized that Donatello had made a brief appearance in one of the demo games I had run before the start of this campaign. The New York Hecata had a problem. Local Tremere had used clan secrets to force a deal which was not favorable to the Clan of Death. The deal itself was not an issue, the issue was that someone was leaking information and Donatello had learned that the source of the leak was in Atlantic City. A few sessions ago Thomas had asked about clan Hecata and I had given him quite an infodump, thanks to this leak. But being a loyal Tremere he kept his mouth shut about anything he might know about anything. Donatello wanted the coterie to travel to Atlantic City and plug the info leak. He mentioned Ornella Giovanni, owner of the Three Bears Casino, as the local boss and a potential first contact. The coterie did some research about AC and learned that the city has at least 15 Kindred, much more than should be sustainable with such a small population. They also learned that Atlantic City is either led by Camarilla Prince whose name no one remembers or a periphery of the New York Domain, but they knew this was false since they had already been told by Donatello that AC is a Hecata domain. Unreliable information is a theme in this adventure. After quick preparations they took a helicopter ride Donatello had provided them, with Augustus being amazed by the machine, and glad to have lived long enough to experience something like this. I noted that technically he didn’t live long enough to experience it. They arrived at the Three Bears Casino, a place that was past its heyday, much like the rest of the city. Everything was a little worn down or out of fashion, except the gambling pit, which was very modern. Clearly the intention was that when customers had gambled away their kids’ college funds they wouldn’t care about the bed they slept in. After a tour of the casino, the coterie tried to inquire about its owner, Ornella Giovanni. The staff assumed they were interested in local history and told that Ornella was a local crime boss back in the 1920’s. This was a good reminder for the coterie (and the players) that most immortals don’t use their own name. The current owner was one Frankie Zingaretti and the coterie managed to charm, persuade, threaten and finally namedrop Donatello and New York to make their way into an appointment. Frankie was clearly nervous and explained that Ornella had taken a sabbatical a year ago and left running the operations to him. He also confirms that he still sends everything as requested up to New York, with not a cent missing. He doesn’t know anything about a leak, and an insight check confirmed that he is not lying. Through the conversation Frankie revealed that Lubango and Mrs. Strand, also members of Hecata, deliver money and “other things” at the casino always on time, so he doesn’t know where their domains are, but at least the players have two new names. Frankie especially mentioned that he finds Mrs. Strand creepy, looking emaciated and constantly talking to shadows. The coterie eventually figured out that Frankie was quite probably Ornella’s ghoul and when pressed on this, he immediately crumbled and revealed that he gets his vitae from one Edith Blumenau. What was he supposed to do? He was without a source of vitae and about to rapidly age when Blumenau contacted him and offered to take over. Frankie offers them a sunproof suite and sets up a meeting with Blumenau for the next evening. During this interrogation I had to guide my players a little more than I felt comfortable with to figure out that Zingaretti was a ghoul, but figuring it out was quite critical in the opening stages of this mystery. Turns out my players are still not too familiar with some aspects of the setting, and the way the adventure is written I felt it was essential information. I’m fine with my players missing stuff, not connecting the dots and misunderstanding stuff based on their own reasoning, but I don’t want them to miss out on stuff that the player’s characters would know or not understanding common setting elements. The rest of the night was spent getting to know the scene and failing to hunt, with nothing notable happening. They did briefly meet a teenage thinblood, who did not know much about the vampiric condition but did inform the players it’s against local custom to hunt on the Boardwalk or target permanent residents. The next night came and after another round of failed hunting (and me realizing I’ve tuned hunting rolls too difficult, will adjust in future) it was time for the meeting with Edith Blumenau. It was at a nice cafe on the Boardwalk with a great view and before the meeting started I asked the players to describe their appearance. They were slightly confused, but described their physical looks and outfits and I replied “So, three corpses enter the cafe…” Maybe in the future they will remember Blush of Life, but for now one of Blumenau’s many bodyguards spotted the coterie immediately and subtly motioned at the table where Edith Blumenau was sitting, introducing herself as Baron Blumenau. Blumenau is courteous and welcomes them to Atlantic City, excitedly telling them about local activities and hotspots, while inquiring what brings the players to the domain. The coterie tries to dodge the question, revealing only that they are doing a service for the Hecata. Blumenau admits that Ornella has been missing for a year and the Anarchs have taken over since. She claims not to know where any of the local Hecata reside, but conveniently remembers where Mrs. Strand resides. A successful insight check reveals that she’s lying and does know more locations (and a few earlier failed insight checks probably gave the players indication she is being less than truthful) and when pushed on it, pretends to suddenly remember the neighborhood where Lubango holds domain. Now when it comes to the coterie, Baron Blumenau figures out immediately that they are Camarilla, since they are clearly not Hecata or Anarchs, and again tries to inquire what their purpose in AC is. The coterie still refuses to elaborate what they are doing in the city, besides doing an errand for the Hecata, and they fail to dispel Blumenau’s assumption that they are the vanguard of an invasion. The meeting ended, with Blumenau encouraging the coterie to enjoy the city but not stay too long, reminding them that the Camarilla doesn’t call the shots here any more. And that’s it for this session!
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Oct 22, 2022 12:32
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the thing that always got me about "vampires always check frenzy for any fire no matter how small" is that modern electric lighting is actually super recent (and also it is hot and could start more fires) In general vampire media, not just VTM/VTR, never seems to really think about what the fact that for the vast majority of human existence, not much happened at night, and in most of the world if you did try and do stuff at night you'd get eaten by a bear or something. Requiem at least makes Rome a big thing where you're probably way safer than most of the ancient world, but, like, what are vampires doing before night clubs exist in, fuckin', I dunno, Hampshire?
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Oct 22, 2022 20:35
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Good stuff, LH, I appreciate the updates!
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Oct 22, 2022 20:56
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spectralent posted:the thing that always got me about "vampires always check frenzy for any fire no matter how small" is that modern electric lighting is actually super recent (and also it is hot and could start more fires) Hanging out in their giant mansions and cultivating blood dolls and all sorts of other hosed up poo poo. I've always felt that the older a vampire is, yes, they get detached from the mortal world as time slips away from them, but more importantly a purely nocturnal existence as you go further and further back, by necessity, detaches you further and further from humanity because 99% of everything was happening during the daytime before the modern era. Imagine centuries and centuries of just hiding in the dark with your clique of other lonely and blood starved weirdos, left to your own devices while the entire world is just passing you by every day as you sleep? Of course the older they get the more hosed up and inhuman they become, it's basically like being in a specially constructed prison to give the illusion of freedom. It's basically Oz, but for centuries.
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Oct 22, 2022 21:46
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This is why we need more granular frenzy checks. Pre-lightbulb vampires should absolutely have tended to squirrel away into the furthest, darkest corners of otherwise-lit rooms and only managed to step forward and be normal with a lot of effort, whether visible or hidden. Roll Resolve+Composure (or, if you prefer, Composure + Subterfuge, or maybe you can try the first and then the second) to not be visibly on edge as you address the merchant, that kind of thing.
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Oct 22, 2022 22:10
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Ferrinus posted:This is why we need more granular frenzy checks. Pre-lightbulb vampires should absolutely have tended to squirrel away into the furthest, darkest corners of otherwise-lit rooms and only managed to step forward and be normal with a lot of effort, whether visible or hidden. Roll Resolve+Composure (or, if you prefer, Composure + Subterfuge, or maybe you can try the first and then the second) to not be visibly on edge as you address the merchant, that kind of thing.
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Oct 22, 2022 23:52
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I’ve always played “frenzy vs. fire” by ruling that Kindred don’t generally have to make frenzy checks unless the fire is directly threatening them. So a burning torch that’s just sitting in a wall sconce won’t provoke frenzy in a vampire, but it will if someone picks up that torch and starts waving it at them. One thing I prefer is that, if Kindred are limited to the night, than all of them should be able to see in the dark. You shouldn’t need Auspex 1 or Protean 1. (Frankly, V:tR 2e is the only version of vampire where Protean 1 isn’t totally useless. I’d swap it out for the ability to spider-climb on walls Dracula-style)
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Oct 22, 2022 23:53
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Ferrinus posted:This is why we need more granular frenzy checks. Pre-lightbulb vampires should absolutely have tended to squirrel away into the furthest, darkest corners of otherwise-lit rooms and only managed to step forward and be normal with a lot of effort, whether visible or hidden. Roll Resolve+Composure (or, if you prefer, Composure + Subterfuge, or maybe you can try the first and then the second) to not be visibly on edge as you address the merchant, that kind of thing. I feel like pre-lightbulb vampires would be more tolerant of fire because they'd have needed candles or lanterns to do much of anything.
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Oct 23, 2022 00:35
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Nessus posted:Nah. That sounds pretty lovely. I don't think it would provide any benefit, even to Requiem. It's just a dice roll, what's the big deal? That's what you use to represent struggles and uncertainties! spectralent posted:I feel like pre-lightbulb vampires would be more tolerant of fire because they'd have needed candles or lanterns to do much of anything. I could go either way on this but my instinct would be to make exposure therapy alone not lessen sensitivity except in the sense of buying up Resolve and Composure (maybe some kind of bespoke "candle-inured" merit?). I generally assume at least cat- or owl-quality night vision as a vampiric default (iirc, so does Requiem 2E) and that, in the absence of human civilization, pre-modern vampires really did live and treat with each other in the dark, or at least such poor lighting that mortals would be stumbling around bumping into stuff.
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Oct 23, 2022 01:01
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Free Cog posted:Humble Bundle's got a new WoD bundle with the VtM5 core, the 5th edition Camarilla and Anarch books, and also the Choice of trilogy, Draw Distance duology and Wraith: Afterlife. a7m2 posted:I don't know if this has been posted yet but the V5 core rulebook and two sourcebooks are on Humble Bundle (along with some video games) https://www.humblebundle.com/world-darkness-collection I came to this thread because my group (which bounced off Requiem 1E years ago) is interested in potentially trying Vampire again, and I was wondering which version goons suggest. This pushes me toward suggesting V5. I've heard both good and bad things; my understanding is most of the bad has been ironed out and most of the remainder can be ignored. Is this generally accurate?
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Oct 23, 2022 02:35
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/\/\/\Yeah most of the bad is gone. I'd still rec Requiem 2, but that's personal preference, there's nothing inherently bad about V5. Gatto Grigio posted:
That's one of the powers you can take later on. One of the coolest thing about vtr2's protean is being able to build your own unique protean form and powers.
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Oct 23, 2022 02:43
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Soonmot posted:/\/\/\Yeah most of the bad is gone. I'd still rec Requiem 2, but that's personal preference, there's nothing inherently bad about V5. Yeah, I dig R2e’s version of Protean a lot. I like Masquerade’s setting more, but there’s a lot of good about the Requiem clans that I wish V5 had kept (more versatile Protean, Nosferatu being “all creepy” instead of “all ugly”, detachment from Touchstones as Ventrue weakness instead of feeding restriction, etc.)
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Oct 23, 2022 16:17
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disaster pastor posted:I came to this thread because my group (which bounced off Requiem 1E years ago) is interested in potentially trying Vampire again, and I was wondering which version goons suggest. This pushes me toward suggesting V5. I've heard both good and bad things; my understanding is most of the bad has been ironed out and most of the remainder can be ignored. Is this generally accurate? I'd say go with V5 if you want to lean toward direct the plot like it's a D&D game, and R2 if you want the players to be more self-directed. The former game has more and better metaplot for a GM to build the world with, while the latter has a much more robust political setting and systems for players to grow their characters through.
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Oct 23, 2022 16:55
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One thing I really do prefer V5 for is that it has a structured session zero where the GM and players are expected to outline the coterie’s common bonds, goals, code of Humanity, etc., and then the setting is adjusted around those expectations. (Unknown Armies 3e, a fav game of mine, has a similar system).
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Oct 23, 2022 17:03
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Gatto Grigio posted:One thing I really do prefer V5 for is that it has a structured session zero where the GM and players are expected to outline the coterie’s common bonds, goals, code of Humanity, etc., and then the setting is adjusted around those expectations. (Unknown Armies 3e, a fav game of mine, has a similar system). common apocalypse world W Ferrinus posted:It's just a dice roll, what's the big deal? That's what you use to represent struggles and uncertainties! I mean I understand the positives/interest in making such checks more granular/interesting but the giant creaking flaw of WOD is that there's way too many things to keep track and especially way too many "passive"/triggered checks - its telling that one of the most common things people do even if they don't intentionally houserule it is that they only do hunger/disquiet/cover/etc checks in response to when it would enhance something already happening in the fiction, in direct contradiction of the RAW and RAI, where these events are supposed to come up mechanistically and drive the fiction rather than being driven by the fiction. Basically what I'm saying is that putting more weight/complexity on that subsystem is pushing the system away from the direction I (and afaict quite a few other people) would like it to go.
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Oct 23, 2022 18:48
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Tulip posted:common apocalypse world W Believe me, I hate the multiplication of fiddly rules and subsystems, especially ones that drop Conditions on you or have you cross-reference tables or whatever. I'm saying that between the rules for straight-up frenzy (which probably do want to be fairly rigorous since they might take your character out of your hands for a whole scene) and simply ignoring the issue entirely is a lot of terrain on which a Storyteller could comfortably call for low- to mid-stakes dicerolls covering vampire stuff as well as mortal stuff, with the same loose and improvisational style they might already use when checking to see if a character can talk their way past a bouncer, climb over a fence, or notice a footprint in the snow. You'd ask for the player of a vampire, not a human, to roll to see if they're comfortable enough to sit next to a smoker rather than find an excuse to make some distance just like you'd ask for the player of a human, but not a vampire, to roll to see if they can find their way through a dimly-lit back alley. These are just things that stats like Composure and Subterfuge are already for, and putting them to use doesn't have to entail super specific rules as opposed to setting information and Storytelling advice.
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Oct 23, 2022 19:27
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To me, if vampires are having to make these checks constantly, you're steering away from the general fictional representation that Vampire is at least trying to be in conversation with, towards -- nothing in particular. Either vampires would tend to develop enormous pools of Resolve and Conviction or Courage or whatever relevant stat it is, or they will be neurotic and avoidant of the light, greatly reducing the capacity to do the Anne Rice/Dracula style of urbane and sexy predator presentation in a pre-modern environment. You could build interesting creative content around it, but I do not think the established body of crap for Vampire: the RPGing has necessarily done so; so it makes more sense to me that it would be much less of a factor for small/familiar/controlled fires.
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Oct 23, 2022 20:34
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Vampires being neurotic about and avoidant of open flames is appropriate for the Masquerade and Requiem settings, which feature vampires that are specifically vulnerable to fire as well as to sunlight. Lots of other vampires aren't, and it wouldn't be the end of the world if kindred just took lethal from flames the same way mortals did, but a specific susceptibility to and aversion to fire does help to make vampires a bit more monstrous, the imaginary experience of being a vampire a bit more alienating, etc. The same goes for frenzy, in fact, whether fear frenzy in specific or the risk of frenzy in general; there are a lot of vampire stories in which a vampire is just a huge slimy piece of poo poo but doesn't literally come loping at you on all fours with his fangs out and eyes blank after losing control. That kindred, specifically, do do that helps to add texture to the World of Darkness settings in specific. So, unless we want to discard the fire weakness and/or the risk of fear frenzy all together—which, again, isn't a cardinal sin, but I prefer to keep them—I think we should take them seriously. As you say, small, controlled fires are logically going to present less of a problem, which is why I would not expect them to legitimately threaten frenzy a lot of the time... but you should no more be able to casually ignore them than you can casually ignore the fact that the man you're talking to nicked his throat while shaving. Whether it merits an actual dice roll, and how severe the consequences for that dice roll are, is going to vary with context, but sometimes or even always rolling for it is cool.
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Oct 23, 2022 20:48
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If I were playing in a pre-electricity setting I'd probably just draw a line between open flames and flames with some sort of glass enclosure between them and the vampire. That way vampires could just exist in public spaces without constantly rolling for frenzy, but the risk inherent in actually lighting a candle or lantern would mean vampires either need ghoul servants to do it for them, or they'd just sit around in the dark at home. Either option is perfectly thematic.
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Oct 23, 2022 23:57
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All this vampire chat makes me even more excited for Werewolf to be moving in a less racist direction.
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Oct 24, 2022 02:48
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I think DA:V had a granular difference between 1) torch safely in a wall sconce ("eh, i can be around that"), 2) torch in a wall sconce what got jostled ("argh! minor annoyance/jolt, punish the careless servant later."), and 3) torch yanked out of a wall sconce and waved about ("AIYEE! RED FEAR A GO GO!")
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Oct 24, 2022 23:23
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Wait, New York by Night is already on season 2? What happened to the first team? Did they die? They just did not click at all with me, so I can't say I'm sad to see them go.
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Oct 25, 2022 01:32
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Wait, New York by Night is already on season 2? What happened to the first team? Did they die? They just did not click at all with me, so I can't say I'm sad to see them go. Season 1 was an Anarch coterie. Season 2 is a Cam coterie. Season 3 they'll meet. It's just different focus for S2.
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Oct 25, 2022 02:29
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https://www.worldofdarkness.com/news/werewolf-the-apocalypse-auspices-and-forms W5 Forms and Auspices dev diary. Digging the new art style and aesthetic overall. I may actually give a gently caress about WtA for once in my life this time around. We'll see.
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Oct 25, 2022 14:34
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Yeah looks like they cribbed s bit from forsaken, which is the right thing to do. It's interesting that they went with "large dog" for the hispo form instead of dire wolf. I really want to see the stat changes for the forms and what penalties crinos brings.
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Oct 25, 2022 15:00
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Based on the text, sounds like shifting forms may be like a Rouse check but it uses up your Rage dice, with Rage dice being a resource that adds to your pools, ostensibly? Cool way to do it, I don't mind. The push away from birth for Auspice is good. I'm still curious what they're gonna do with kinfolk, I'm hoping it goes in a more found family kinda direction than actual blood relation stuff.
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Oct 25, 2022 15:16
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Soonmot posted:Yeah looks like they cribbed s bit from forsaken, which is the right thing to do. It's interesting that they went with "large dog" for the hispo form instead of dire wolf. Last year DNA analysis demonstrated that the "dire wolf" -- Aenocyon dirus -- isn't in the genus Canis. It's not a wolf of any variety. That might be one reason.
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Oct 25, 2022 15:52
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Soonmot posted:Yeah looks like they cribbed s bit from forsaken, which is the right thing to do. It's interesting that they went with "large dog" for the hispo form instead of dire wolf. I mean, it does say hispo form "resembles that of giant primordial wolf," the "large dog" bit is just saying it's not so huge that people would think it's, like, a bear or an obviously-supernatural monster.
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Oct 25, 2022 15:55
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GimpInBlack posted:I mean, it does say hispo form "resembles that of giant primordial wolf," the "large dog" bit is just saying it's not so huge that people would think it's, like, a bear or an obviously-supernatural monster. The picture diagram in the article has Hispo as the size of a Tibetan Mastiff. Rather than "A car".
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Oct 25, 2022 16:08
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Yeah I was just pointing out the difference between this and forsaken, wtf urhal is the size of a bear. Wta always allowed you to spend rage to instantly shift, so it being a v5 rouse check makes sense. I also missed the part where auspices weren't the moon you changed under?
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Oct 25, 2022 16:44
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