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Has everyone forgotten how easy Vicky 2 was if you played as a great power? There are some things in these videos that I hope Paradox addresses, but that's how it always is, especially at launch. It should be fairly easy for them to find imbalances and tweak things now that they will have the general public prodding at the game from every direction.
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Oct 23, 2022 13:04
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Even if the game is easy, I will enjoy tending to my little Japanese zen garden on day 1.
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Oct 23, 2022 13:38
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Has everyone forgotten how easy Vicky 2 was if you played as a great power? I don't see any issue in the videos that have been posted. Austria (and probably Prussia) will have an easy time to unify Germany, because that's the only way they can compete with France and Russia, Brazil is the poster-child nation in South America to be able to compete for a great power spot and therefore can gobble up their backyard fairly easily and Jan Mayen as a nation is a meme right from the start, so the AI breaking when they need to Naval Invade it isn't that big of an issue at launch. So there wasn't really anything unexpected posted, especially if you keep in mind that these people are professional PDX game breakers.
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Oct 23, 2022 13:41
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Hell people used to post videos of bringing Byzantium back by exploiting the AI to own them but whenever I played I never found it that easy to actually do
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Oct 23, 2022 14:12
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Victoria 3 is impossible to balance because even if you added modifiers designed to destroy the players economy and reduce it to nothing, it would just make an anarcho-primitivist run extremely easy.
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Oct 23, 2022 14:31
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Stellaris is different because everyone starts with one planet. That's not true. Depending on what origin you start with, a player in Stellaris can start with more than one planet under their control. And advanced start options can gift a number of AIs with already fully-formed mini-empires with multiple planets. And then there are the special cases of Ancient Alien Empire, Space Barbarians and Space Nomads, all of which are vastly superior to whatever the player has at game start. Stellaris also allows for "late-comers": Primitive species only achieving advanced space flight after the game has started. There's an unusually high amount of asymmetry in Stellaris, when compared to other space 4x games. Most of the games in this genre don't have all this poo poo going on. Hell, Aurora is the one exception I can think of, and only because a player can painstakingly create huge empire and put them into the game manually for the player to encounter.
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Oct 23, 2022 14:41
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Stellaris used to be much more (but not fully) symmetrical for standard empires back when the design philosophy was more 4x-focused. Ever since the initial introduction of Origins, empires now get deliberately unbalanced starts (Damaged ringworlders vs federation of tiny guys vs Help Our Homeworld Will Explode). This is for the better. Now if only i didn't have to deal with the ship designer...
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Oct 23, 2022 14:52
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CharlestheHammer posted:Hell people used to post videos of bringing Byzantium back by exploiting the AI to own them but whenever I played I never found it that easy to actually do This used to be really easy but it got successively nerfed until it was actually pretty difficult and even if you managed to win a war with the Ottomans by going massively in debt you'd usually get backstabbed by Venice or someone. So I imagine a lot of videos were from older versions. Pooned posted:I can't hate too much on it being easy playing Austria or one of the other strong powers in Vic 3. Playing as a great power in Eu4 or Hoi4 is also easy against the AI. I guess it's basically the same but because of how GP relations were in the actual historical Victoria period it feels way worse than it does in EU. Like, France just dominating Europe feels like something which could have happened at multiple points in actual history, meanwhile the thought of Brazil conquering most of its continent (filled with rainforest and mountains) in a couple of decades is alien space bats territory
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Oct 23, 2022 15:17
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Oct 23, 2022 15:26
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pdxjohan posted:In the last decade what you view as paradox has grown from a team of 8-10 people led by me to about 7 different studios with 25-100 people in each with the creative leadership being differrent. While we still talk and have a lot of knowledge sharing its creates a difference in philosophies and goals with the games. Please use your powers to make one last dlc for Imperator, please.
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Oct 23, 2022 15:43
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https://multitwitch.tv/mauriceweber/moerp/steinwallen/rangerarea/strategieecke/shurjoka/copeylius German language 7 player MP stream, actual gameplay should start at 17 CET
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Oct 23, 2022 15:45
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The economics and internal politics looks cool but the war and global politics looks pretty bad. Specifically in how the AI handles them. I don't see anything in the videos that's horribly broken though and I think it will take a few patches and Paradox will get it right.
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Oct 23, 2022 15:47
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 Welp, pack it in people, Vicky 3 Bad game.
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Oct 23, 2022 16:17
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I mean it’s a video game, all video games can be solved. Wargaming can be solved.
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Oct 23, 2022 16:21
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One thing about AI and strategic diplomacy, I think, is that it’s usually difficult to convince the strategic AI in any game that it’s in their best interests to help you. By which I mean, think about what happens in a face to face board game when one player starts pulling ahead. Other players may start to negotiate with the others, not giving anything up but trying to convince people that they should form a coalition against the leader. The leader in turn would be furiously arguing themselves, perhaps pointing out that those attempting to form a coalition actually have assets in place that would allow them to pull ahead if the leader was deposed, perhaps pointing out that a second-rank power’s only avenue for advancement lies through their coalition partners, perhaps reminding them of the previous deceptive behavior on the part of the coalition-proposer, etc etc. In other words, diplomacy and strategy isn’t just a series of trade deals - it’s an active attempt to influence the decision-making process of others. And this can come out in trade deals as well - it’s possible to construct agreements trading assets that would have little value normally but which would become strategically valuable if both parties act in a certain way, and even in purely tit-for-tat trade agreements it’s possible for a savvy negotiator to inflate the perceived value of what they’re offering by talking up its intangible or future benefits. But in most (all?) strategy games you don’t really have any tools with which to influence the AI’s fundamental strategic calculus. You can essentially bribe the AI into doing what you want, but anything you can offer is given an objective, effectively fixed value and if the value of what you’re offering is less than the objective fixed value of what you want, no deal, end of story, unless you can add even more bribes to the table. At heart, you can’t really talk around an AI into agreeing with your strategic view of the world. That creates a problem because when an AI does something the player doesn’t want them to do, the player starts getting frustrated about their inability to change the AI’s mind when they intuitively think they SHOULD be able to try and talk it around. And this is a problem of perception because obviously, sometimes other human players are perfectly stubborn, stupid, or excessively loyal themselves - but when they are, people blame the specific player, not effectively denouncing the entire human race as fundamentally broken (whether that last statement is true or not is another matter and one that I refuse to be drawn into.). This is to say nothing of the fact that the players themselves aren’t always as clever as they think they are, and their proposed course of action might really be objectively worse whether to a human or computer player. I don’t have any solutions for this since creating a system that allows a player to influence AI decision-making directly sounds like a sufficiently complex design and programming challenge that you could build an entire game just around the concept, especially if you allow the AI to influence other AI. But I think it’s a factor worth considering with “Why people get frustrated at the AI.”
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Oct 23, 2022 16:26
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I do think it’s fated to be one of the lesser played PDS games. Which unfortunately will be misconstrued at every turn.
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Oct 23, 2022 16:42
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Personally i just can’t wait for the game to be released and try it out so we can speak about the AI with actual facts and not hearsay of memey youtube videos, but looking at r/victoria3 that just seems to be me. I’ve played good games with braindead/easily gameable AI (SMAC). As long as the pieces move well, we’ll be fine. —————— Is anyone setting up a discord for a release day MP game? I don’t mind doing it if no one else does. I’m assuming EU and NA are going to be their own groups for desyncs issues? I don’t have much experience with paradox’s mp.
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Oct 23, 2022 16:43
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Anno posted:I do think it’s fated to be one of the lesser played PDS games. Which unfortunately will be misconstrued at every turn. It’s top 8 on steam currently. Dunno how that compares with previous releases, but that looks like a healthy position to be in. E: six positions behind Call of Duty MW2 Popoto fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Oct 23, 2022 |
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Oct 23, 2022 16:44
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I'd love to join in a MP game, maybe not on launch but at some point. So it would be great if someone could set it up.
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Oct 23, 2022 16:49
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Tomn posted:One thing about AI and strategic diplomacy, I think, is that it’s usually difficult to convince the strategic AI in any game that it’s in their best interests to help you. Like, a Greater Germany united by Austria could offer Russia free reign on the other side of the Carpathians, just letting them run wild on the Ottomans, offering the Russians a way to grow their power that would appear more enticing than joining a coalition to weaken Germany.* Obviously if there's a treaty where Germany has given Russia free reign in the region, the Germans shouldn't be able to join against the Russians without basically getting branded as untrustworthy traitors for a generation or more. *I guess that would be a way to judge whether the AI thinks it's a fair deal. It feels threatened by you being this much more powerful, but if you offer an avenue for expansion that sufficiently addresses that imbalance it will find that an acceptable alternative.
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Oct 23, 2022 16:57
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Huskalator posted:The economics and internal politics looks cool but the war and global politics looks pretty bad. Specifically in how the AI handles them. I don't see anything in the videos that's horribly broken though and I think it will take a few patches and Paradox will get it right. I guess given that one of the difficulty settings is "make the AI more aggressive toward the player", it's worth seeing how the game plays on harder settings once it's released, if the permissiveness of the AI is something that makes the game less enjoyable.
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Oct 23, 2022 16:58
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Popoto posted:It’s top 8 on steam currently. Dunno how that compares with previous releases, but that looks like a healthy position to be in. Out of the gate I think it’ll be pretty strong. It has similar follower numbers as CK3 at launch and is pretty high up the wishlist ranks. What might hold it back a bit is pricing - especially outside of the major currencies it’s quite expensive compared to CK3.
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Oct 23, 2022 17:05
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https://v.redd.it/8p2xsxhzlkv91 Now this is the kind of thing I like to see.
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Oct 23, 2022 17:05
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MonsieurChoc posted:Please use your powers to make one last dlc for Imperator, please. Release the devkit. As DLC!
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Oct 23, 2022 17:29
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uRu1Yp5ovQ Quill18's video is up. Very much slower paced, detailed explanations. If you didn't like the meme videos from yesterday you'll probably like this one.
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Oct 23, 2022 17:38
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MonsieurChoc posted:Please use your powers to make one last dlc for Imperator, please. We have failed Him and offended Him and now our begging will be in vain. Maybe one day Paradox will try to experiment with turning modders into dev studios and publishing them. There's a big Imperator mod that tries to expand the game without changing it too much but like all mods like this it suffers from not having access to the code. With some Paradox supervision they could have updated I:R with some DLCs and/or Enhanced Edition or something. Or maybe they need Netflix TV show to revive mainstream interest in the game.
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Oct 23, 2022 17:40
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Pylons posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uRu1Yp5ovQ Him + a bunch more are listed on (previously linked to) https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4hR-M4rl7uepw0qB_aT4GquyJeb6viyI, though some of the others look shorter. (I kinda wish the Korea stream wasn't... in Korean. Looks like the game has a .kr localization too, huh)
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Oct 23, 2022 17:50
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ilitarist posted:Maybe one day Paradox will try to experiment with turning modders into dev studios and publishing them. How quickly the legacy of Ubik is forgotten. (EvW when)
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Oct 23, 2022 17:52
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Ah, I've skipped "again"! Yeah, perhaps the combined disaster of Magan Mundi and EvW can't outweigh the relative success of For the Glory and those HoI2 games.
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Oct 23, 2022 18:07
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Tomn posted:How quickly the legacy of Ubik is forgotten.
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Oct 23, 2022 18:08
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In the German MP game Würtemberg tried to take Baden, which spiraled into a World War with UK(AI) fighting Russia(AI) and Prussia(Player) near St. Petersburg.
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Oct 23, 2022 18:09
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Red Bones posted:I guess given that one of the difficulty settings is "make the AI more aggressive toward the player", it's worth seeing how the game plays on harder settings once it's released, if the permissiveness of the AI is something that makes the game less enjoyable. Yeah that could help but it may not help in specific situations where for example a player is casually wrecking the AIs economy by stealing nations into it's sphere. I don't know though. I don't think such a thing is an insurmountable hurdle for Paradox and while I can certainly see issues I'm not panicking.
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Oct 23, 2022 18:15
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I want to see a Kaiserreich timeline-expansion mod that lets you play the divergences which would lead to the KR timeline by 1936. That would be pretty neat. Aw gosh guys I am so excited for this!! 
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Oct 23, 2022 18:17
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DrSunshine posted:I want to see a Kaiserreich timeline-expansion mod that lets you play the divergences which would lead to the KR timeline by 1936. That would be pretty neat. Yes. This is good.
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Oct 23, 2022 18:29
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Has everyone forgotten how easy Vicky 2 was if you played as a great power? i have yet to calibrate an opinion on vicky 3 but comparing it to vicky 2 and saying "well it's not worse" is nonsense imo. a basic expectation SHOULD be that a sequel is better.
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Oct 23, 2022 18:44
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Lady Radia posted:i have yet to calibrate an opinion on vicky 3 but comparing it to vicky 2 and saying "well it's not worse" is nonsense imo. a basic expectation SHOULD be that a sequel is better. How many movies have you watched
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Oct 23, 2022 18:53
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:How many movies have you watched Pretty sure that's SHOULD as in 'ought to', not 'can be expected to with high probability '. For further detail, please see RFC6919
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Oct 23, 2022 18:57
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In all seriousness it seems like Paradox does better by hiring modders and integrating them into Paradox’s established institutions and practices instead of outright hiring modding teams with ad-hoc working practices based on people doing the job part-time.
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Oct 23, 2022 18:59
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Tomn posted:In all seriousness it seems like Paradox does better by hiring modders and integrating them into Paradox’s established institutions and practices instead of outright hiring modding teams with ad-hoc working practices based on people doing the job part-time. *laughs in Ubik*
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Oct 23, 2022 19:04
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OddObserver posted:Pretty sure that's SHOULD as in 'ought to', not 'can be expected to with high probability '. yes thank you 
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