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Bust Rodd posted:Newest effect always wins when two cards are trying to change the same thing in the same layer. "Always" is incorrect here; it's true in this case, but if one of the effects depends on the other, the dependency takes precedence over timestamps. E.g., with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Blood Moon: if you applied Blood Moon first, Urborg no longer has an ability, and therefore no longer applies said ability; if you apply Urborg first, Blood Moon is unaffected. In a situation like this, whether or how Urborg applies is "dependent" on whether or how Blood Moon applies, so you apply the "independent" effect first (Blood Moon) and apply the dependent one (or not) based on that (not, in this case, because the ability no longer exists). Also, a clarification: these dependencies are global, not on a card-by-card basis; the order they are applied in is the same for all objects. So in the Blood Moon/Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth example, none of the lands on the battlefield are affected by Urborg's ability, regardless of timestamps or anything; Urborg's ability disappears before it can be applied to anything. Further exception: if both effects are dependent on one another, then we go back to timestamps. That leads into one of my favorite weird-rear end rules questions: Life and Limb vs Blood Moon. What happens if the only 3 permanents on the battlefield are Taiga, LaL, and BM? Whether LaL affects Taiga depends on whether BM has applied and stripped it of forest status, so BM applies first, and Taiga is a Land - Mountain, and LaL doesn't affect it. What happens if the only 3 permanents on the battlefield are a saproling token, LaL, and BM? Whether BM affects the token depends on whether LaL has applied and turned it into a nonbasic land, so LaL applies first, turning it to a Land Creature - Forest Saproling, and then BM turns it into a Land Creature - Mountain Saproling. What happens if the battlefield includes Taiga, a saproling token, LaL, and BM? As we've seen, for the Taiga, LaL depends on BM, and for the saproling, BM depends on LaL. Since we have a "dependency loop," we fall back to timestamp order. If LaL came first, we apply it and then BM; then the saproling is still a Land Creature - Mountain Saproling, but the Taiga is also a Land Creature - Mountain Saproling, since LaL turned it into a creature before BM stopped it from being a Forest. If BM came first, we apply it and then LaL; then the Taiga is still a Land - Mountain, but the saproling is a Land Creature - Forest Saproling, since BM didn't affect it when it wasn't yet a land. To clarify for anyone who is new to the technical side of MTG rules: all of the above is only if they're in the same "layer;" in these cases, layer 4: type-changing effects. If the effects apply in different layers (e.g., Wall of Stolen Identity's copy-with-Wall-subtype effect (layer 1) and Conspiracy's creature-type-changing effect (layer 4)), dependency and timestamp do not matter at all; the effects are applied in layer order (e.g. Wall of Stolen Identity becomes whatever type was chosen by Conspiracy and is not a Wall unless that was what was chosen).
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Oct 22, 2022 20:47
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Bust Rodd posted:ATTN! I just picked up a foil full art Morphic Pool for $20. They’re as low as they’re going to get!
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Oct 22, 2022 21:51
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Balon posted:I just picked up a foil full art Morphic Pool for $20. They’re as low as they’re going to get! I love picking up the fancy versions when they’re this cheap. That’s what I did for Takenuma a little while back.
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Oct 22, 2022 22:23
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Lmao at this bit of the outro.
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Oct 23, 2022 05:05
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Some of my prototype token designs came in the mail today
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Oct 23, 2022 05:55
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Spanish Manlove posted:Some of my prototype token designs came in the mail today drat that's pretty good.
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Oct 23, 2022 05:59
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Spanish Manlove posted:Some of my prototype token designs came in the mail today Crew the vehicle, Shinji, or Rei will have to do it again.
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Oct 23, 2022 06:05
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lmao at my sincere, visceral emotional response to that token
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Oct 23, 2022 06:33
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If I'm really goona go ahead with my dumb Junji Ito deck idea, I'm gonna need to learn to make proxy tokens with alternate art. Maybe even those cool ones with a different name and then the "real" car dunderneath. Who would Tomie be? Hellstar Remina?
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Oct 23, 2022 06:35
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MonsieurChoc posted:If I'm really goona go ahead with my dumb Junji Ito deck idea, I'm gonna need to learn to make proxy tokens with alternate art. Maybe even those cool ones with a different name and then the "real" car dunderneath. Who would Tomie be? Hellstar Remina? I believe you can use https://cardconjurer.com/creator/ if you want to make custom cards/tokens that will be the correct size for MPC. You can use whatever art tickles your fancy.
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Oct 23, 2022 06:55
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Batterypowered7 posted:I believe you can use https://cardconjurer.com/creator/ if you want to make custom cards/tokens that will be the correct size for MPC. You can use whatever art tickles your fancy. Conjurer even has an option for the Godzilla-style frames, so I'll definitely second this recommendation.
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Oct 23, 2022 08:33
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Rules question that I'm too lazy to look up elsewhere: I have Tatsunari in play and I cast Rancor. At the casting of the spell, not the resolution, a token of Keimi enters the battlefield. Can I then choose Reimi as the target of Rancor, since it has yet to resolve? Or is there a hitch in the rules for auras that says I have to choose a target as it is cast? I just need to know if I can draw my entire deck with a Rancor + Phyrexian Altar + an Enchantress effect in play. 
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Oct 23, 2022 11:31
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You can’t cast rancor without a target, and the frog won’t proc until you cast, so no
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Oct 23, 2022 11:42
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Bust Rodd posted:You can’t cast rancor without a target, and the frog won’t proc until you cast, so no Boooooo. Yeah, I had a feeling about this. I mean, Rancor is still OP in this deck, so I just lost one combo line. 
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Oct 23, 2022 11:53
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Thoughts on Orvar cEDH? Looks like janky fun.
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Oct 23, 2022 14:54
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Batterypowered7 posted:Thoughts on Orvar cEDH? Looks like janky fun. I've been really intrigued by it, and of course his price spikes hard when I want to pick one up. Ever since someone told me that Spellstutter Sprite is an all star in the deck I was pretty much sold. Spellstutter Sprite is my favorite magic card and I've always been kinda bummed it sucks on edh overall
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Oct 23, 2022 15:04
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Framboise posted:I've been really intrigued by it, and of course his price spikes hard when I want to pick one up. I've been thinking about maybe proxying up a mono-color cEDH deck for each color and I think I'd like Orvar more than Urza for Blue. I'd do Adeline for White, Birgi for Red, Tergrid for Black, and I don't know who for Green. Maybe Yisan, Selvala, or even Big Kamal?
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Oct 23, 2022 15:24
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Goreclaw is fun for mono green if you just want stompy
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Oct 23, 2022 15:37
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WHAT'S THE BEST TOURNAMENT WINNING DECK IN cEDH? PLAY TO WIN vs MONARCH
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Oct 23, 2022 15:56
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Batterypowered7 posted:I think I'd like Orvar more than Urza for Blue. Em ry! Em ry! EM ry! EM RY! EM RY!
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Oct 23, 2022 17:45
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Batterypowered7 posted:I believe you can use https://cardconjurer.com/creator/ if you want to make custom cards/tokens that will be the correct size for MPC. You can use whatever art tickles your fancy. Thanks! This is a project I'm gonna work on pretty slowly, since the Secret Lair won't arrive until late november anyway.
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Oct 23, 2022 20:07
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https://twitter.com/ComedIanMTG/status/1584038799280984065?s=20&t=6kK5lsBsxcjgmb9lgyz2qw the list
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Oct 23, 2022 21:04
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For those of you who don’t quite get what the deck is doing, it’s a Time Sieve combo deck.
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Oct 24, 2022 00:06
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Bust Rodd posted:For those of you who don’t quite get what the deck is doing, it’s a Time Sieve combo deck. I love Time Sieve!
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Oct 24, 2022 00:09
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LibrarianCroaker posted:https://twitter.com/ComedIanMTG/status/1584038799280984065?s=20&t=6kK5lsBsxcjgmb9lgyz2qw This deck is so cool I totally missed the time sieve combo initially too, that's excellent.
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Oct 24, 2022 01:23
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LibrarianCroaker posted:https://twitter.com/ComedIanMTG/status/1584038799280984065?s=20&t=6kK5lsBsxcjgmb9lgyz2qw This looks rad.
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Oct 24, 2022 02:36
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Yeah it’s funny because people are kind of assuming it’s just a bad esper Stax list that Ian piloted masterfully, but truthfully the combo is balls easy to set up. It’s kind of like an Esper Turbonaus list, you just actually need the commander to win (if you don’t just go off with Thoracle) and once you take the first turn, your opponents are screwed if you can protect your commander.
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Oct 24, 2022 02:40
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Settle a debate for me: Dude plays  and places  , and says that Spore Chimey triggers from the number of +1/+1 tokens gained, I argue that it doesn't proc at all, since he didn't actually pay anything for X. It still comes in huge based off his lands, but that's all. Right?
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Oct 24, 2022 04:47
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Yeah I'm really not clear on it. Ravenous is an EtB thing so it doesn't directly reference its casting cost as the "source" of the counters. The enchantment reads as though it's replacing the X in the cost.
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Oct 24, 2022 05:07
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Mr. Bad Guy posted:Settle a debate for me: It doesn't proc at all because he didn't pay anything for X. Heath posted:Yeah I'm really not clear on it. Ravenous is an EtB thing so it doesn't directly reference its casting cost as the "source" of the counters. The enchantment reads as though it's replacing the X in the cost. Nope, ravenous cares about the amount of Mana paid for X costs, not the number of counters.
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Oct 24, 2022 05:14
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Heath posted:Yeah I'm really not clear on it. Ravenous is an EtB thing so it doesn't directly reference its casting cost as the "source" of the counters. The enchantment reads as though it's replacing the X in the cost. thematically it's similar to replacing the x, but rules-wise it's not close at all as the card isn't cast and is instead put directly into play with a bunch of counters on it quote:107.3g If a card in any zone other than the stack has an {X} in its mana cost, the value of {X} is treated as 0, even if the value of X is defined somewhere within its text. quote:107.3m If an object’s enters-the-battlefield triggered ability or replacement effect refers to X, and the spell that became that object as it resolved had a value of X chosen for any of its costs, the value of X for that ability is the same as the value of X for that spell, although the value of X for that permanent is 0. This is an exception to rule 107.3i. as it was never a spell on the stack X is zero, so they don't draw a card for the ravenous replacement effect because that's concerned with the value of X rather than the number of counters, and spore chimney searches for up to zero lands e;fb
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Oct 24, 2022 05:20
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Yeah there was a rules update a while ago that let permanents remember what their X Value was when cast for the purposes of their ETB. One of the things this enables is if you copy a permanent spell with an X in the cost then both will remember their X value. This only works if you copy it *while* it's a spell. If you copy it once it ETBs then the copied X will be zero.
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Oct 24, 2022 05:24
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Kurieg and LGD are correct. First Tyrannic War does not say anything about setting the value of X, only about adding extra +1/+1 counters. The Spore Chimney ability doesn't care about +1/+1 counters, it only cares about what X is, and since Sporocyst wasn't cast, X is 0. I find it sort of amusing that this is essentially a "correlation does not imply causation" error. If you cast Sporocyst normally, the number of +1/+1 counters on it and the number of basic lands you search for will be equal (i.e. they are correlated). But neither one causes the other; both are the result of a common cause (the amount of X paid). Kurieg posted:Yeah there was a rules update a while ago that let permanents remember what their X Value was when cast for the purposes of their ETB. One of the things this enables is if you copy a permanent spell with an X in the cost then both will remember their X value. This only works if you copy it *while* it's a spell. If you copy it once it ETBs then the copied X will be zero. That's not really a new rule. The fact that it is now possible to copy permanent spells on the stack is a new phenomenon (as of about two years ago I think), but it has always been the case that (a) ETB replacement effects and triggers of permanents "remember" X costs paid (this is necessary for any permanent with X in the cost to function at all), and (b) copying spells on the stack copies X costs paid.
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Oct 24, 2022 07:02
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DontMockMySmock posted:Blood Moon vs Prismatic Omen chat and rules and effects that follow there in. That's a huge rear end explanation and thanks for clearing poo poo like that up. MTG gets so in depth when it goes in for what effect means what and when. That being said I'm also looking at putting in a Chromatic Lantern into a WUBRG deck. What sort of interaction would that have against Blood Moon and similar enchantments?
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Oct 24, 2022 08:04
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Jiro posted:That's a huge rear end explanation and thanks for clearing poo poo like that up. MTG gets so in depth when it goes in for what effect means what and when. Blood Moon is a type-changing effect, so it applies in layer 4, whereas Chromatic Lantern grants the ability in layer 6, ability granting or removing effects. So nonbasics will be Mountains that have the tap for any color ability. Blood Moon (and other basic land type changing effects that don't have the "in addition" clause) are a little weird in this regard, since they're changing type (layer 4) in a way that, as a side effect, causes abilities to be removed, which is the sort of thing you would expect to be in layer 6.
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Oct 24, 2022 09:09
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Now someone do the Humility + Opalescence ruling.
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Oct 24, 2022 11:40
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Batterypowered7 posted:Now someone do the Humility + Opalescence ruling. Humility and Opalescence is actually not that complex, IMO, unless you're new to it. They both basically do their thing, and timestamp order only applies to their power and toughness. If Humility entered the battlefield first, Opalescence wins on timing and Humility is a 4/4 creature with no abilities. If Opalescence entered first, Humility wins on timing and Humility is a 1/1 creature with no abilities. (If you have two Opalescences and Humility entered between them, you have one 4/4 and one 1/1 Opalescence but they're not the ones you might think, but if you're playing Humility and two copies of Opalescence you know exactly what you're doing anyway.)
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Oct 24, 2022 12:14
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Bust Rodd posted:Yeah it’s funny because people are kind of assuming it’s just a bad esper Stax list that Ian piloted masterfully, but truthfully the combo is balls easy to set up. It’s kind of like an Esper Turbonaus list, you just actually need the commander to win (if you don’t just go off with Thoracle) and once you take the first turn, your opponents are screwed if you can protect your commander. Tivit has been on my radar for a while and it really feels like people have been sleeping on it because of his cost. Having a commander be such a value engine and a combo piece at the same time is pretty bonkers, especially with pseudo-hexproof and huge toughness making it hard to remove. The fact that it has lines that are commander dependent and independent is also good, in one of the most interactive color identities with some of the best tutors. Deck's great.
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Oct 24, 2022 12:46
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LibrarianCroaker posted:Tivit stuff Tivit is a super interesting commander, because it has so many win conditions it's very hard to stop. Time Sieve combo is probably the most reliable, but you also have: -Easy Infinite flicker with Deadeye Navigator -Tons of fodder for Improvise cards -Using Inspiring Statuary or KCI to make a giant Exsanguinate or Torment of Hailfire -Cranial Plating or All That Glitters to go for commander damage, also double strike??? -Voting shenanigans with Expropriate and such, also Illusion Of Choice is playable! -Rise and Shine or Cyberdrive Awakener for go wide tokens LanceKing2200 fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Oct 24, 2022 |
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Oct 24, 2022 13:59
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Kurieg posted:Nope, ravenous cares about the amount of Mana paid for X costs, not the number of counters. Yeah and that's important to remember since that deck contains Hardened Scales and a couple of other ways to put extra +1/+1 counters on cast.
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Oct 24, 2022 14:09
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