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Tuna-Fish posted:You can assume almost indefinitely. Gas storage is really cheap compared to the capex of the electrolysis plant and whatever generator it's being fed into. And storage is fast enough to build that if you don't have enough of it, you can almost build it as it fills up. It's a good assumption that if someone is building a 200MW lysis plant, they are also buying or leasing enough storage that it practically never fills up, just because that maximises the return on the very expensive capital cost of the plant. I'm not going to assume that because if that was true we wouldn't have an energy crisis if we could just build infinity energy storage cheaply. And I know hydrogen has it's own issues compared to natural gas. So there's definitely a limit but they're not saying it. The released specs said nothing about the electrolysis production rate, only the max capacity of the plant when it has fuel to burn. Tuna-Fish posted:No, over time the surpluses will rise. Wind and solar are by far the cheapest ways to produce electricity. The only problem is that they produce it on their own schedule, not when it's needed. (And, they are both heavily self-correlated over all of Europe.) As more is built up so that it can serve the grid when output is low, the peak outputs will necessarily far outstrip demand. The rate of building renewable capacity has been stalling out in europe, meanwhile nuclear capacity is going downwards and for each plant that goes out of commission, that's thousands of new wind mills needed to replace them (depending on size), and they aren't being built nearly fast enough to replace those. We're going to lose 19GW of nuclear capacity in europe by 2030, they aren't replacing that at anywhere near the rate needed with renewables. Building solar in europe is basically a crime against the planet since installed solar in europe has a capacity factor of 11%. His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Sep 29, 2022 |
# ? Sep 29, 2022 04:37 |
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# ? May 30, 2024 20:56 |
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His Divine Shadow posted:I'm not going to assume that because if that was true we wouldn't have an energy crisis if we could just build infinity energy storage cheaply.
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# ? Sep 29, 2022 05:34 |
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Well it's an issue too for sure but I did not see it as a big one. The same area is host to a lot of Finlands wind power parks (As an aside, resistance to building more is mounting here too), they might build our first off-shore park in my childhood home municipality so I guess the idea is to run it when surplus power is cheap. Less protests against off-shore anyway and better capacity. But how much storage can they build, for what cost? I've seen no figures of that, all I know is the plant is rated at 200MW electricity production so it'd be like a nat.gas 200MW plant. How is the hydrogen going to be stored, just in above ground tanks? Hydrogen storage isn't as easy as storing nat.gas. That's why they're talking about solutions like using natural deep caves to store the stuff. That's what the new hybrit plant is planning on doing, using underground steel lined caverns to store a few days worth of production at a time. Seems to me if building above ground storage was as easy as hinted at they wouldn't be resorting to such solutions. But I admit I am just guessing. Difficult to find hard numbers and reliable sources, google hydrogen storage and you just get a lot of pop-sci techno-optimist wanking most of the time without any numbers. His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Sep 29, 2022 |
# ? Sep 29, 2022 06:14 |
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Oh I just found some more info. They're building a methanation facility it says. So they're gonna store it as methane, not hydrogen. Well that makes it a lot easier to store, but energy efficiency goes down even more. Mentions the plant will need 750MW of power to run at full capacity. 750MW to make 200MW, that should be 26.6% efficient overall. Honestly better than I thought. His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Sep 29, 2022 |
# ? Sep 29, 2022 06:43 |
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His Divine Shadow posted:Oh I just found some more info. They're building a methanation facility it says. So they're gonna store it as methane, not hydrogen.
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# ? Sep 29, 2022 07:02 |
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Fair point, didn't consider that.
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# ? Sep 29, 2022 07:08 |
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I am looking for actual numbers on electrolysis: https://www.fortum.com/about-us/blog-podcast/forthedoers-blog/hydrogen-economy-coming-sooner-or-later quote:Combined heat and power production improves efficiency If one can expect an overall efficiency of 38% at best, when omitting the methanation step, I don't think I could be that far off? Unless this information is incorrect. It does mention other ways of improving the energy efficiency, but I believe we're interesed in the electricity side here.
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# ? Sep 29, 2022 07:16 |
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His Divine Shadow posted:I am looking for actual numbers on electrolysis:
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# ? Sep 29, 2022 07:30 |
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I guess that's a subjective thing as to what we both meant and expected. I did assume you talked about efficiencies in the 40-50% range. At any rate the 38% efficiency quoted is without the intermediate step of methane conversion, so it should be lower than 38% since that will add more losses. EDIT: Well looks like I was wrong, I found this article, in english: https://www.epressi.com/tiedotteet/...d-finland..html quote:-Up to 200 MW Green hydrogen/e-methane plant will be located at Karhusaari in Kristinestad, in the province of Ostrobothnia, Finland So it's not a 200MW gas to electric plant, which is what the local paper made it seem like. This is quite different. It makes the whole project a lot smaller than imagined too. His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Sep 29, 2022 |
# ? Sep 29, 2022 07:38 |
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So German chancellor Scholz decided to push through with a controversial sale of stakes in a harbor in Hamburg to the Chinese and now he's planning some kinda solo tour to China and he's fighting his own party over it. The european comission also told them not to do it. Why is he so gung-ho about this? https://www.politico.eu/article/olaf-scholz-ignores-government-over-china-port-deal-cosco-shipping/ quote:Olaf Scholz backs China, ignores government warnings in Hamburg port deal, report says
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 12:17 |
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Don't worry, he has a plan to pacify the furious: https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1585210243042185217
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 12:21 |
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It will "create jobs" what more can you demand of politics?Tesseraction posted:Don't worry, he has a plan to pacify the furious: https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1585210243042185217 Do you have more on this? They massively waffling and unclear between them wanting legalizing or decriminalizing last I heard. VictualSquid fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Oct 26, 2022 |
# ? Oct 26, 2022 12:26 |
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His Divine Shadow posted:So German chancellor Scholz decided to push through with a controversial sale of stakes in a harbor in Hamburg to the Chinese and now he's planning some kinda solo tour to China and he's fighting his own party over it. The european comission also told them not to do it. Distinct echoes of Gerhard Schröder's building of "economic ties" with Russia while in office. Which turned out so well for Europe, Germany and the world... I wonder what the odds are on Scholz accepting a €500k a year role with a Chinese firm once he retires from office.
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 12:40 |
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VictualSquid posted:It will "create jobs" what more can you demand of politics? It was tabled this morning apparently https://www.dw.com/en/germany-health-minister-lauterbach-presents-plan-on-cannabis-legalization/a-63558414
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 13:40 |
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His Divine Shadow posted:
He's been so insistent about it and ignored everyone that I wonder if the Pipi-Kasette is real Blut posted:I wonder what the odds are on Scholz accepting a €500k a year role with a Chinese firm once he retires from office. Or that. Probably that.
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 13:44 |
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Sereri posted:He's been so insistent about it and ignored everyone that I wonder if the Pipi-Kasette is real Is this a joke or are there also rumours about a Scholz, ah, Pissaufnahme?
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 17:31 |
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Do they really call it the pipi kassette
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 17:39 |
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He was a longtime Hamburg politician, it's probably some corruption with getting some old pals sweet kickbacks or something like that. That said, the government limited the stake the Chinese can buy to 24.9% of the asset in question, meaning they cannot influence managerial decisions. So it's perhaps not a big deal? I'm not very knowledgeable in this matters, if somebody who's more of an expert could explain the significance of the sale to me, I would appreciate it.
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 17:42 |
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is there any reason corruption is the obvious #1 reason or is this more comparable to the hundred-plus other port deals the PRC has concluded in the last decade
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 17:48 |
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i say swears online posted:is there any reason corruption is the obvious #1 reason or is this more comparable to the hundred-plus other port deals the PRC has concluded in the last decade
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 18:10 |
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i say swears online posted:is there any reason corruption is the obvious #1 reason or is this more comparable to the hundred-plus other port deals the PRC has concluded in the last decade By and large it does seem like a fairly regular deal of the sort that the PRC does all the time, it's just that with the whole Ukraine invasion happening people in Europe are realizing that perhaps it might not be a good idea to hand influence over major infrastructure over to countries who may well end up becoming more hostile in the foreseeable future. The more suspicious part is Scholz in particular putting a lot of his weight behind pushing this deal through over the objections of just about everybody else in his own government.
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 18:10 |
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I mean, you can't outright reject the possibility that corruption was also involved there. i assume people will get some sweet consulting gigs out of it, but it seems insane to me to infer it was the primary driver Perestroika posted:By and large it does seem like a fairly regular deal of the sort that the PRC does all the time, it's just that with the whole Ukraine invasion happening people in Europe are realizing that perhaps it might not be a good idea to hand influence over major infrastructure over to countries who may well end up becoming more hostile in the foreseeable future. Infrastructure that can be readily nationalized in the event of conflict. With a country that has strongly signalled over the past year that its main goal is business as usual. I feel like this diversifies away from Russia and other bad actors.
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 18:20 |
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i say swears online posted:i assume people will get some sweet consulting gigs out of it, but it seems insane to me to infer it was the primary driver It's business as usual with russia too; if we abandoned sanctions, Vova would be very happy to sell us gas again right now. China has actually been parroting russia's rhetoric about security concerns and evil NATO, they want our money but XI's been making it clear they're on the other side of this. Diversifying away from russai towards China is an pretty big self-own.
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 18:28 |
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i say swears online posted:i assume people will get some sweet consulting gigs out of it, but it seems insane to me to infer it was the primary driver i say swears online posted:Infrastructure that can be readily nationalized in the event of conflict. With a country that has strongly signalled over the past year that its main goal is business as usual. I feel like this diversifies away from Russia and other bad actors.
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 18:28 |
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I think I'd be more worried if the social democrat chancellor was selling off state-owned operations. It's interesting the FDP is against since this seems to be a market-value purchase of publicly-traded shares, if I have it clear.
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 18:35 |
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Maybe for once Germany wants to join the winning team.
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 18:43 |
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Al-Saqr posted:Maybe for once Germany wants to join the winning team. Joke like this much further and you'll find a horse's wienerschnitzel on your pillow.
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# ? Oct 26, 2022 18:48 |
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Moving on to the next issue, https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/10/10/europe-energy-crisis-russia-ukraine-war-ones-and-tooze/ This guy predicts that europes energy problems will continue beyond this winter. Something I've been fearing too, coming round ot the idea of the 2020s being a decade of energy shortages until things might turn around. Personal fear is Europe might be permanently crippled coming into the 2030s from a decade of economic malaise.
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# ? Oct 27, 2022 12:58 |
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Maybe europeans should act responsably and stop consuming beyond their means,get some discipline and self control on those heating moochers.Maybe we can buy more solar panels, boy i hope we dont antagonise where those are made!
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# ? Oct 27, 2022 13:43 |
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Solar panels are utterly worthless in europe with a measly capacity factor of 11% so that's not a problem since it's not part of any solution to europes future energy mix.
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# ? Oct 27, 2022 14:03 |
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If only we could harness the power of spite we'd be in surplus to eternity.
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# ? Oct 27, 2022 14:05 |
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:boy i hope we dont antagonise where those are made! e: ^^ Unless we figure out how to do that, then always antagonize Geert.
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# ? Oct 27, 2022 14:06 |
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Maybe europeans should act responsably and stop consuming beyond their means,get some discipline and self control on those heating moochers.Maybe we can buy more solar panels, boy i hope we dont antagonise where those are made! Don't be lumping good Southern Europeans in with this, they're living within their heating means. Its time for the Germans to get some karmic EU imposed austerity.
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# ? Oct 27, 2022 17:38 |
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Guavanaut posted:Yes do not antagonize the Dutch Always antagonize the Dutch, we suck. Although I love kroketten and stroopwafels.
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# ? Oct 27, 2022 18:23 |
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Blut posted:Don't be lumping good Southern Europeans in with this, they're living within their heating means. Its time for the Germans to get some karmic EU imposed austerity. His Divine Shadow posted:Solar panels are utterly worthless in europe with a measly capacity factor of 11% so that's not a problem since it's not part of any solution to europes future energy mix. are solar panels "utterly worthless" in spain
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# ? Oct 27, 2022 18:23 |
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i say swears online posted:are solar panels "utterly worthless" in spain Not "utterly" but not great, orange is solar, teal-ish below it is wind. Maroon is gas.
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# ? Oct 27, 2022 18:31 |
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The further south you get the better, so it's OK at the southernmost parts of europe. But for most of europe which lies further north, it's not a good use of finite resources.
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# ? Oct 27, 2022 18:33 |
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Wind energy seems like a much better idea for most of North- and Northwestern Europe anyway.Guavanaut posted:Yes do not antagonize the Dutch Geert Wilders is not the force in Dutch politics he once was, the main guy on the fascist right is now Thierry Baudet, who is as close to a mask-off Nazi as possible short of wearing swastika armbands.
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# ? Oct 27, 2022 21:41 |
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The Netherlands seems to be making a lot of solar PV and adjacent stuff now though, which even if solar isn't the one true power solution is at least a lot more useful than Dutch Alex Jones.
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# ? Oct 27, 2022 21:50 |
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# ? May 30, 2024 20:56 |
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Pope Hilarius II posted:Wind energy seems like a much better idea for most of North- and Northwestern Europe anyway. My neighbour was trying to peddle me Baudet's new book today. About corona and the globalist cabal. It's the first time I ever actually told a neighbour to gently caress right off with that poo poo. He told me I was compromised by fake news and that he will be glad to see me in jail. I didn't even know I did something illegal. e: What surprises me most is that this guy is basically an environmentalist who...doesn't seem racist and has these giant Love will win and Care for others stickers. An insane mind fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Oct 27, 2022 |
# ? Oct 27, 2022 21:50 |