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Bar Ran Dun posted:Yes. That's great. What does an ELCA liturgy look like? I'd never observed an English-language liturgical service before and I really enjoyed the Anglican emphasis on calendared scriptural readings. I'll probably drop by a sung service too.
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Oct 27, 2022 20:32
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I think I might do a full New Testament reread. Which version should I try?
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Oct 27, 2022 20:45
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Which have you tried before? KJV or a descendant is a reference point that probably everyone should experience at some point. I like my NRSV thinline a lot.
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Oct 27, 2022 20:47
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I think you've just convinced me NOT to read KJV. I think I'll probably just go with NIV as that sounds like the most readable. edit: Because of the response in my mind to seeing the word "KJV".
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Oct 27, 2022 20:50
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Nah, the KJV is actually good. I've been going through a copy left behind by my great-grandmother. If readability's a concern, there's also the NKJV. In general, I tend to look for how a Bible translation renders John 1 and the Beatitudes in Matthew 5.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:16
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Ohtori Akio posted:That's great. What does an ELCA liturgy look like? I'd never observed an English-language liturgical service before and I really enjoyed the Anglican emphasis on calendared scriptural readings. I'll probably drop by a sung service too. It varies from church to church in the ELCA. They all have the calendared scriptural reading. But some are “high church” very formal and others are extremely contemporary. There are some entirely sung services too especially for Christmas some congregations do I can’t offhand remember the name of those.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:16
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Prurient Squid posted:I think you've just convinced me NOT to read KJV. I think I'll probably just go with NIV as that sounds like the most readable. It's a valid reaction and I grew up in a KJV-is-sacred context so trust me I get it. The thing is, it's a classic for a reason and newer translations have treated it as a valued reference point for a reason. Bar Ran Dun posted:It varies from church to church in the ELCA. They all have the calendared scriptural reading. But some are “high church” very formal and others are extremely contemporary. There are some entirely sung services too especially for Christmas some congregations do I can’t offhand remember the name of those. I'll see if I can't drop by. As I told the lay reader at the Episcopals, window shopping is very enjoyable.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:19
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I envy y’all your range of options.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:26
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Nessus posted:So it sounds like ultimately you define happiness as material wealth and nothing else, period. Would you say this is accurate? No. I think that material abundance is more likely to make you happier. If you are not made happier by it then give stuff away.
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Oct 27, 2022 23:29
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Follow your own advice then
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Oct 27, 2022 23:30
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Josef bugman posted:No. I think that material abundance is more likely to make you happier. If you are not made happier by it then give stuff away.
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Oct 28, 2022 00:29
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The KJV is beautiful and the NKJV retains a lot of its beauty. I like the NRSV and the Jerusalem Bible too. Can't stand the NIV. It feels clunky.
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Oct 28, 2022 04:03
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HopperUK posted:The KJV is beautiful and the NKJV retains a lot of its beauty. I like the NRSV and the Jerusalem Bible too. Can't stand the NIV. It feels clunky. One of my theology professors playfully chided me when he asked me to read from the Psalms and my Bible of choice, the Jerusalem Bible, rendered the Tetragrammaton as Yahweh instead of the LORD.
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Oct 28, 2022 04:06
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Gaius Marius posted:Follow your own advice then I, quite literally, cannot. I own pretty much nowt and have had to sell or give away a tonne of stuff to stay afloat this last year because there is a cost of living crisis going on. Nessus posted:Is this prescriptive or descriptive in your opinion? As in, do you think people should abandon material abundance in excess of their needs if it’s not making them happy, or that they DO do so, so if they aren’t, it’s still providing happiness? The latter. If people are that miserable from vast wealth then they can get rid of it. But they won't.
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Oct 28, 2022 06:35
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HopperUK posted:There's a lot of room between 'mindless cockroach' and 'human'. It's not at all self-evident to me that humans are completely separated from other creatures. Dolphins, elephants, gorillas, crows - there seem to me to be other kinds of 'people' on the world besides humans. I assume God speaks to them in their own way. I've been on about this before, but the ancient pagan Inca belief, which I was taught in a roundabout fashion by way of the Peruvian shamans, is that there are five heavens. The heavens of stone, plants, animals, humans and finally the heaven of light: Specific for this is you only go there if you're truly ascended, so certain souls have have gotten past the other heavens, "masters of light" can be found here... along with dolphins and whales 
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Oct 28, 2022 06:46
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Josef bugman posted:The latter. If people are that miserable from vast wealth then they can get rid of it. But they won't. e: Just since this has gone around a little, I should say my ultimate thrust here is a response to this from a while ago quote:Also Nessus, I don't think we do know what the good is ourselves, without a framework what appears good to one of us seems foul to one outside it. Basically I don't understand your view here, and it may be more productive to move outwards from the specific example, since it seemed to be about frameworks of knowledge and how they are developed or received, rather than specifically about rich people. Nessus fucked around with this message at 08:38 on Oct 28, 2022 |
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Oct 28, 2022 07:44
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Wealth can effect pretty much everything though? Death and entropy may be inevitable but, to put it bluntly, every other problem can be solved by throwing money at it. And if you are sad about death then there are even therapists you can go to about that. Also suffering may be inevitable, but that doesn't mean going "oh I am not affected by such things" is true either. Trying to find our first principles based on "what others are doing" may result in bad actions if done in the wrong context. Say for instance everyone around you is involved in theft and you choose to just dive in, or if you see no wrong in it because, well, everyone does it. If we have to look at the fruits of it, you are happier and everyone you can see and be part of the community with is happier and wealthier. Why would you not continue doing this? Why would you think of something as wrong if you don't have the language to even describe it as a problem? My essential view is that if we try and examine our Axioms we come down to the problem of how those are either drawn from our own cultures and context or a reaction against the same. We cannot be separated from ourselves, we cannot make a truly informed choices about what we based our morality upon because every single thing is informed by everything else. In your example, how those people are to choose is based on seeing the fruits of what happens, but even that is subject to bias and prevailing ideas from beforehand. There isn't a tabula rasa we can start from to make a moral system, and that's a big old problem.
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Oct 28, 2022 10:42
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I know this is one of most annoying things in online conversations but I'll still peek in from the sidelines and take a single sentence out of context. I genuinely cannot understand how wealth could possibly solve pretty much every problem. I don't even wish to elaborate much since I am quite baffled, but so many problems are caused by wealth to begin with.
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Oct 28, 2022 11:50
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For the individual person any problem they have can be solved through the application of money. Illness and death are perhaps the only two that can't. I mean what problems do you think cannot be? Because even personality disorders can be treated with enough money.
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Oct 28, 2022 12:48
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HopperUK posted:The KJV is beautiful and the NKJV retains a lot of its beauty. I like the NRSV and the Jerusalem Bible too. Can't stand the NIV. It feels clunky. One of my college professors was fond of disparagingly calling the NIV the "Nearly Inspired Version"
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Oct 28, 2022 12:57
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I was reading the Meditations last night. Marcus Aurelius says that the gods make some men play the role of stage clowns so that their baseness can serve as a foil for the nobility of others. This reminds me of the Calvinist idea that some people are made as "vessels of destruction" by God.
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Oct 28, 2022 13:00
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Josef bugman posted:I mean what problems do you think cannot be? Because even personality disorders can be treated with enough money. Not to get into anything else but this is absolutely not true. There are plenty of people who have problems that make their lives very difficult who have received extensive combinations of therapy (both chemical and non-chemical) and have little or no permanent relief. Therapy is not a perfect science by any means and our understanding of the human mind on a scientific level is still sketchy at best; there are plenty of disorders, illnesses, and sicknesses of the soul (for want of a better term) for which therapy can offer little or no relief no matter what you are willing to pay. Edit: specifically to your post: personality disorders are notoriously difficult to treat and much treatment involves developing coping mechanisms rather than being able to "cure" the underlying problem. A_Bluenoser fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Oct 28, 2022 |
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Oct 28, 2022 13:23
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Sure, but those things can still be treated with resources. They cannot be cured but it's much easier to manage when you don't have to worry about where the next meal is coming from. Like I get the point people are raising and I'm sorry if I've been too maximalist with what I've said, but is what I'm saying wrong? Also if I am not being clear or not explaining myself well, do please let me know. I hate being obtuse. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Oct 28, 2022 |
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Oct 28, 2022 13:41
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"wealth only makes things worse!!" sure sounds convenient for the people who do not want their wealth redistributed. 'Stay in poverty you'll be happier, pity me, I swear'
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Oct 28, 2022 14:18
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Tias posted:I've been on about this before, but the ancient pagan Inca belief, which I was taught in a roundabout fashion by way of the Peruvian shamans, is that there are five heavens. The heavens of stone, plants, animals, humans and finally the heaven of light: Specific for this is you only go there if you're truly ascended, so certain souls have have gotten past the other heavens, "masters of light" can be found here... along with dolphins and whales I know I have told this story before, but I like this take on the afterlife. I present you with two boys, around 6-7 years old, talking about Heaven. Boy A - "Do you think there are dogs in Heaven?" Boy B - "Yes, I hope so!" Boy A - "Dogs are scary, I don't want dogs in Heaven!" Boy B - "God made it so MY Heaven has dogs. YOUR Heaven can have guinea pigs and mice!" Personally I want a heaven with lots of dolphins, and cats, and dogs, birds, and lots of other animals, but no spiders!
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Oct 28, 2022 14:26
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Josef bugman posted:Sure, but those things can still be treated with resources. They cannot be cured but it's much easier to manage when you don't have to worry about where the next meal is coming from. No-one is going to argue that material wealth does not make life easier- it is patently true that being rich makes for an easier life. All people, however, are fully human - from the richest to the poorest, from the most powerful to the least - and thus access the full range of human experience: we all feel pain; we all feel joy; we all love and have love unrequited; we all experience friendships and suffer false friends; we are all lonely; we all have hopes and dreams, many of which cannot be made good and some of which can; we all envy and covet; we all wonder why we exist; we all experience the existential dread of our own mortality. All of these things belong to us all. Material conditions can affect some of them and make others easier or harder to bear but it cannot resolve all of them and all of them play in to whether we are "happy" or not. To say that the rich are simply "happy" (or should be) is to miss two fundamental points: 1) the experience of being human is not just a product of material conditions, and 2) we are all human with all the good and bad that entails. And note: it is important to recognize this not because denying the common human experience is immoral (although I think it is) but because it is incorrect and will lead to erroneous understanding of why people do what they do.
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Oct 28, 2022 15:26
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Aren't there like, studies that billionaires are far more likely to be sociopaths. Like I don't think the 'we all share the human experience' thing is actually true
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Oct 28, 2022 15:34
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Killingyouguy! posted:Aren't there like, studies that billionaires are far more likely to be sociopaths. Like I don't think the 'we all share the human experience' thing is actually true There are some pop things that I have heard of but never actually anything really peer-reviewed and comprehensive. It also hinges on the definition of "sociopath" which can be pretty fluid. I would also be very uncomfortable with simply defining some class of people with a personality disorder "not human" which the above essentially does.
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Oct 28, 2022 15:39
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Josef bugman posted:Sure, but those things can still be treated with resources. They cannot be cured but it's much easier to manage when you don't have to worry about where the next meal is coming from. Wealth can certainly make things easier, and indeed this even gets directly addressed in the life-story of the Buddha, but wealth cannot hide you from sickness, old age, and death. If you want to make absolute claims for wealth, you are worshipping it.
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Oct 28, 2022 15:41
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Nessus posted:I would say that what you are saying is wrong, yeah, particularly in this maximalist stage, and if I'm going to go a step further I would say that it almost amounts to deifying the rich, just in a negative direction. I don't think that's justified even if they may be political/class enemies in need of secular opposition for the benefit of the non-rich, because it will, if nothing else, lead you to assume they have godlike powers which will demoralize you and make you produce bad strategic calls. Absolutely, says what I was trying to get at much better and the deifying point is really important: it is all people being people at the end of the day.
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Oct 28, 2022 15:44
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Yeah like I should be clear that, IMO, none of this lets rich people off the hook for political actions. If anything it makes them more culpable, while casting the ultra-wealthy as some kind of immortal psycho overlords seems to be a lot more destructive to the possibilities of justice and reform. "Well of course they rule everything, they're like vampires or something." They are not gods or vampires; they are individuals who primarily by luck and occasionally luck alloyed with shrewd business decisions have become extremely wealthy and powerful, much as kings of old were born or occasionally adopted. They will also age, become ill, and die. Killingyouguy! posted:"wealth only makes things worse!!" sure sounds convenient for the people who do not want their wealth redistributed. 'Stay in poverty you'll be happier, pity me, I swear' Nessus fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Oct 28, 2022 |
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Oct 28, 2022 15:53
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Also, when you're super rich you have the resources to persue every vendetta, nurse every wound and insulate yourself from the consequences. What sort of conciousness is going to emerge from these material circumstances?
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Oct 28, 2022 15:55
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Prurient Squid posted:Also, when you're super rich you have the resources to persue every vendetta, nurse every wound and insulate yourself from the consequences. What sort of conciousness is going to emerge from these material circumstances? This is why buddhism usually teaches that the most fortunate rebirth is as a human. Animals, ghosts and hell-beings are in too much pain and too ruled by instinct to attain enlightenment (even though it is of course possible for them just more difficult) while Gods and Demi-gods are too used to pleasure and insulated from pain to realize that suffering is everywhere and inescapable and can't be overcome through simply avoiding pain and seeking pleasure (although they are of course perfectly capable of realizing this it is simply more difficult). Humans have enough pain to realize they need to escape but enough reprieve from it to actually figure out the method of doing so.
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Oct 28, 2022 16:22
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I don't think excluding death and illnesses should be done. Those two are core things in human experience but okay, I'll leave them out. Thinking these as I write, but things which cannot be cured with wealth, no matter how you try: A romantic relationship breaking up A friend becoming a hateful bigot Your child becoming an addict Burn-out (though wealth certainly helps you to rest so maybe this is better off the list) Greed (doh) Fear of missing out People saying bad things about you online, which you need to read for some reason, which again makes you miserable (you could see if buying out Twitter helps but I doubt it will make you any happier) Jealousy Pride Vanity Okay, you know, pretty much anything that involves other people or your inner self. I'd argue that wealth makes many of those worse since wealth brings with it an illusion of control. And you become miserable if you try to control your life instead of living it.
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Oct 28, 2022 16:23
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Wealth is one thing of many things that separate us from ourselves and others. But it is not the only thing that can do so.
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Oct 28, 2022 16:30
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Valiantman posted:I don't think excluding death and illnesses should be done. Those two are core things in human experience but okay, I'll leave them out. Thinking these as I write, but things which cannot be cured with wealth, no matter how you try: Buddhism teaches in addition to age, sickness and death as inescapable causes of suffering of 8 worldly dharmas (sometimes called winds) Pain & Pleasure Praise & Criticism Material gain & material loss Honor & Shame sometimes honor & shame and praise & criticism are combined with power & powerlessness used instead since they're so similar. But the key is that all 8 are organized into pairs and that each pair acts as a pendulum. It's inevitable that a person will experience both in any life that hasn't been unnaturally short. People spend their lives ignorantly believing that they can simply get the good half of the pairs while avoiding the bad half without realizing that each portion of the pairs depends on the other and can in fact only exist through the other. This of course makes it inevitable that the mental pendulum will swing between the two. Even if a person lives a life where they are extremely rich by our standards, they'll become used to this and find material loss that we would find insignificant or ridiculous unbearable. A billionaire losing 400 million doesn't seem like a big deal to us because they still have more money than anyone could spend in a lifetime but having become used to that level of wealth, its sudden loss is deeply painful. The second you give yourself to one half and let yourself be carried away by it you make it inevitable that you'll be crushed when the pendulum swings the other way.
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Oct 28, 2022 16:32
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It does sound like Buddhism and Christianity should get along really well on moral and "earthly" level, (though mostly not at all on trancendential level).
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Oct 28, 2022 16:48
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Valiantman posted:It does sound like Buddhism and Christianity should get along really well on moral and "earthly" level, (though mostly not at all on trancendential level).
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Oct 28, 2022 16:51
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You go to the Ontology ward of the hospital and there's just a german theologian talking about the anxiety inherent in being.
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Oct 28, 2022 17:41
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The thing that’s stuck with me about money is the opening to one of Anthony Bourdain’s books. He talks about being with rich folks and how the restaurant they were at didn’t have good food. It had utterly mediocre extremely over priced food. The price of the food had nothing to do with quality. It was priced for exclusion. That’s the root of the thing about wealth that can make one unhappy. Material conditions can move us away physically, emotionally, and spiritually from other people even within our families. Even not extreme wealth. I am not extremely wealthy. I am well off. To have my job that creates that material condition of separation. I cannot live near my parents. I had to move and my profession isn’t ever going to be something that let’s me live near them. But hey six figgies. For taking about the material effects of wealth you aren’t even really looking at those effects. You a presuming that what you would do with wealth to change your life are the material effects of wealth. Wealth is tied up with modernity and capitalism. It breaks our personal myths of origin by separating us materially from sources of personal support other than wealth. I mean it’s great to have enough money. I make a buncha problems go away with my money. I like being comfortable and getting the things I want. But it also separates me from people and places I do not want to be separated from.
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Oct 28, 2022 17:51
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