More shit that pisses you off: What does that say about the quality of your emails?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > More shit that pisses you off: What does that say about the quality of your emails?

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Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Proteus Jones posted:

I'm figuring it's more along the lines of a plate with two physical ports labeled something like 43A and 43B.

That'd make sense, but that's not what was said, and I'm imagining some truly creative end user destruction.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 02:17

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 21:08

KillHour: Oct 28, 2007

I wonder what would happen if you modified a cable to have the Tx and Rx pins talk to each other on the same port. Someone find out for science.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 05:26

Rick: Feb 23, 2004; When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.

I didn't configure the building and didn't know such a thing was possible (I don't have any formal training I just somehow ended up in this field because I was the only person a couple jobs ago who knew how to google) so the company I work on definitely spent like $1000 in consulting after two days of down time when I couldn't figure out whey the network was down over a labor day weekend for it to just to be both ends of an ethernet cable plugged into the same switch.

I'd later learn someone there was doing that poo poo on purpose because it kept happening over and over again over the next year. Don't know if it was an employee or one of the program participants, could have been either. Given when it usually happened actually I pretty much know who did it but it's not like I could prove it.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 05:52

xzzy: Mar 5, 2009

KillHour posted:

I wonder what would happen if you modified a cable to have the Tx and Rx pins talk to each other on the same port. Someone find out for science.

You can buy them, google for rj45 loopback plugs. They're used to quickly test a nic's ability to get any kind of link. Or continuity when wiring patch panels.

Needs two wires though, pin 1->3 and 2->6.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 09:52

The Iron Rose: May 12, 2012; Cat Army

If one is being compelled to move away from RDS to k8s for running on prem SaaS app backing databases (I.e. we have minimal control over what queries are being made and what the data structures look like), what tools if any should I use for making my life less painful?

Small DBs, not multi-AZ.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 14:56

Polio Vax Scene: Apr 5, 2009

Arquinsiel posted:

That'd make sense, but that's not what was said, and I'm imagining some truly creative end user destruction.

no user destruction, just me badly explaining it. basically the below image but the two ends of the ethernet cable are the same cable.

people are just monkeys when they have to sit on a conference call they don't want to be a part of and will play with anything within reach of their hands.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 15:31

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Pretty good way of ending the call though :hmmyes:

# ? Nov 2, 2022 15:43

KillHour: Oct 28, 2007

xzzy posted:

You can buy them, google for rj45 loopback plugs. They're used to quickly test a nic's ability to get any kind of link. Or continuity when wiring patch panels.

Needs two wires though, pin 1->3 and 2->6.

Gonna buy a 100 pack and plug them in any open port I can find in the wild. You know, so the bits don't fall out onto the floor. Someone could trip! :ohdear:

# ? Nov 2, 2022 15:57

PremiumSupport: Aug 17, 2015

Look, I appreciate that STP is a useful tool and totally has a place in many orgs. Mine is not one of them.

While we do have two separate buildings we only have around 30 workstations and very few of them are laptops. Our phones are still dedicated line pairs not voip, and the vast majority of our users call me when they move their desks a few inches because they're afraid they'll plug the cables into the computer wrong. I am not a full time IT person, we don't have one. If some optional system on a new piece of kit starts to generate user complaints it's most likely getting shut off.

Welcome to the world of not-for-profits

# ? Nov 2, 2022 16:32

Sickening: Jul 16, 2007; Black summer was the best summer.

Does not using STP serve a purpose or is it just stubbornness?

# ? Nov 2, 2022 16:57

Internet Explorer: Jun 1, 2005

Check their previous posts. Was causing a DHCP delay and they did that over enabling Portfast.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 17:09

wolrah: May 8, 2006; what?

PremiumSupport posted:

Look, I appreciate that STP is a useful tool and totally has a place in many orgs. Mine is not one of them.

A terrible take. If it's reasonably possible for a loop to be created accidentally then you have a place for STP. If you have multiple switches in the same rack or multiple links between any given location and one or more switches you have a loop waiting to happen and it's not a matter of if but when STP will be useful.

quote:

While we do have two separate buildings we only have around 30 workstations and very few of them are laptops. Our phones are still dedicated line pairs not voip, and the vast majority of our users call me when they move their desks a few inches because they're afraid they'll plug the cables into the computer wrong. I am not a full time IT person, we don't have one. If some optional system on a new piece of kit starts to generate user complaints it's most likely getting shut off.

If STP is "generating user complaints" that means something else is broken that STP is telling you about and you should fix that, not disable STP.

quote:

Welcome to the world of not-for-profits

STP is a feature on all but the absolute bottom of the barrel switches, so unless you're running a business network on consumer grade gear this isn't a valid excuse.

Internet Explorer posted:

Check their previous posts. Was causing a DHCP delay and they did that over enabling Portfast.

Ah, that makes sense. Cargo cult treating the symptoms without solving problems.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 17:38

KillHour: Oct 28, 2007

PremiumSupport posted:

Look, I appreciate that STP is a useful tool and totally has a place in many orgs. Mine is not one of them.

I am not a full time IT person

No disrespect, but as "not a full time IT person," you probably don't have the necessary experience to confidently assert your prior statement and should probably defer to networking experts on the matter. Spanning tree isn't a thing you only need if you have a huge organization or an exceptional network. It's a thing that is on by default for a reason and should only be turned off if you have an exceptional need. Like I could see someone coming in with "I have a HFT network that runs custom built switches with in-house designed ASICs" or "I'm literally Netflix and we're talking specifically about our CDN" and they might have a real reason to disable spanning tree. "I work for a small business with a handful of computers" is pretty much never going to qualify.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 18:02

BaseballPCHiker: Jan 16, 2006

All this spanning-tree talk is reminding me of the day our network kept blipping and I finally traced it down to a high school where some dork kid kept plugging in a Cisco nexus switch that wanted to become root.

That was also the day I learned we had a switch in a high school.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 18:12

Super-NintendoUser: Jan 16, 2004; COWABUNGERDER COMPADRES; Soiled Meat

PremiumSupport posted:

Look, I appreciate that STP is a useful tool and totally has a place in many orgs. Mine is not one of them.

While we do have two separate buildings we only have around 30 workstations and very few of them are laptops. Our phones are still dedicated line pairs not voip, and the vast majority of our users call me when they move their desks a few inches because they're afraid they'll plug the cables into the computer wrong. I am not a full time IT person, we don't have one. If some optional system on a new piece of kit starts to generate user complaints it's most likely getting shut off.

Welcome to the world of not-for-profits

Turn off UAC, and give every one local admins. While your at it, also print up the company CC and post it on the employee info board so people can order supplies and not bother with any controls or approval since that's a hassle. Also, when the CEO texts you asking for a bunch of itunes gift cards, don't waste time verifying in a different communication path, go get them asap.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 18:27

Internet Explorer: Jun 1, 2005

I mean, look. I'm going to say you should leave STP on. If someone whose primary role isn't IT doesn't care and just wants their immediate problem fixed, then fine. Go for it. Have fun.

But if it's going to be your problem when poo poo breaks, then I'd suggest it doesn't matter if it's your primary role or not. Turn it on to make sure you don't have a bad day one day.

If you still don't want to, then whatever. Not my problem. But don't be surprised if you're doing something that is going to be a post in a "poo poo that pisses you off" thread and don't be surprised if it's going to come from your future self.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 18:35

PremiumSupport: Aug 17, 2015

KillHour posted:

No disrespect, but as "not a full time IT person," you probably don't have the necessary experience to confidently assert your prior statement and should probably defer to networking experts on the matter. Spanning tree isn't a thing you only need if you have a huge organization or an exceptional network. It's a thing that is on by default for a reason and should only be turned off if you have an exceptional need. Like I could see someone coming in with "I have a HFT network that runs custom built switches with in-house designed ASICs" or "I'm literally Netflix and we're talking specifically about our CDN" and they might have a real reason to disable spanning tree. "I work for a small business with a handful of computers" is pretty much never going to qualify.

Again, I appreciate that it is not best practice, and that yes, best practice should be followed. The simple fact is I have less than 40 hours a month to devote to IT which includes research, implementation, deployment, and support. I have to pick and choose where I spend my time and we have other issues that need my attention. Best practice is rarely an option and I have to pick and choose my battles.

Yes this does lead to an environment where it's pretty much "make it work then ignore it until it breaks." My bosses have decided that this is OK as long as we have good backups that work, which we do. I have also been very upfront with them about the need to invest in IT and hire actual experts in full time positions for it. They are not interested in spending the money.

Again, the wonderful world of not-for-profit orgs.

wolrah posted:

A terrible take. If it's reasonably possible for a loop to be created accidentally then you have a place for STP. If you have multiple switches in the same rack or multiple links between any given location and one or more switches you have a loop waiting to happen and it's not a matter of if but when STP will be useful.

None of these examples are reasonably likely in our environment. Each building has 1 switch for the internal network and 1 switch for the completely separate wifi network. To create a loop in our internal network someone would have to bridge two network cards which none of our workstations have, physically run a cable from one wall ethernet port to another or physically link two ports on the same switch with a patch cable. We are not concerned about the wifi going down as it is a network of convenience, not at all business critical.

Long story short, I'm not worried about it and if it did happen it will not be difficult to uncover and fix. Disabling STP and moving on was in my estimation a far better use of my limited time than figuring out how to configure it properly to guard against an event with an extremely low chance of occurrence and limited organizational impact.

Super-NintendoUser posted:

Turn off UAC, and give every one local admins. While your at it, also print up the company CC and post it on the employee info board so people can order supplies and not bother with any controls or approval since that's a hassle. Also, when the CEO texts you asking for a bunch of itunes gift cards, don't waste time verifying in a different communication path, go get them asap.

For what it's worth, UAC remains on for all our machines, no one has local admin, and we have warnings prepended to externally generated emails as well as training on how to spot phishing scams. These are fights that I won. In addition, our Accounting controls are better than average due to state rules and regulations for our industry.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 19:16

Thanks Ants: May 21, 2004; #essereFerrari

If we�re turning off spanning tree then we should be manually configuring speed and duplex as well

# ? Nov 2, 2022 19:29

Happiness Commando: Feb 1, 2002; $$ joy at gunpoint $$

Which is something I had to do at my first IT job at an MSP not too long ago

# ? Nov 2, 2022 19:35

dragonshardz: May 2, 2017

PremiumSupport posted:

Each building has 1 switch for the internal network and 1 switch for the completely separate wifi network.

Wat.

I'm trying to imagine this physical structure and just...wat.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 20:15

Rick: Feb 23, 2004; When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.

This honestly sounds so much like what my org was like when I got there that if you were me posting from the past I'd believe it.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 20:30

BaseballPCHiker: Jan 16, 2006

dragonshardz posted:

Wat.

I'm trying to imagine this physical structure and just...wat.

Its gotta be some ISP sold them a second modem with built in WiFi right?

# ? Nov 2, 2022 20:33

PremiumSupport: Aug 17, 2015

dragonshardz posted:

Wat.

I'm trying to imagine this physical structure and just...wat.

The buildings are physically separate, yet close enough geographically for a pair of cat-5 cables to link them, one for the internal staff network and one for the wifi. Don't want to go into too much more detail, already posted enough that any coworkers who happen to read this thread could probably figure out who I am.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 20:36

BaseballPCHiker: Jan 16, 2006

People are giving you poo poo now but I remember 15 years ago when I was working in a poo poo show non profit.

Learn what you can, do the best you can, and then move on to bigger and brighter things if thats what you want to do with your career.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 20:37

Rudager: Apr 29, 2008

The problems is that the issue you turned off STP for is a solved thing with correct STP settings, ie using Port Fast.

I think we�re all going on about it cause we�ve all probably done it ourselves early on in our careers where we take the �turn it off� option and know now that it just means we�ll be tearing our hair out years later when things have changed, business is bigger or whatever and someone does create a loop and brings everything to a grinding halt for 6 hours while your tracing cables everywhere.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 21:10

Internet Explorer: Jun 1, 2005

I had something typed up, but deleted it. Like I said, I totally get the predicament. I think my comment is mostly along the lines of don't try to justify doing it wrong, there's no good technical or really even resource explanation for turning off STP instead of just enabling Portfast. It's just that you didn't know. It's a quick fix now that you know the real solution. Add it to the to do list and prioritize however you feel is appropriate, but don't try to say you're in a special situation that makes disabling STP on end-user ports the correct thing.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 21:20

Hughmoris: Apr 21, 2007; Let's go to the abyss!

There is something so draining about completing annual training videos and powerpoints. The BMJ should publish a study on the phenomenon.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 21:23

PremiumSupport: Aug 17, 2015

Internet Explorer posted:

I had something typed up, but deleted it. Like I said, I totally get the predicament. I think my comment is mostly along the lines of don't try to justify doing it wrong, there's no good technical or really even resource explanation for turning off STP instead of just enabling Portfast. It's just that you didn't know. It's a quick fix now that you know the real solution. Add it to the to do list and prioritize however you feel is appropriate, but don't try to say you're in a special situation that makes disabling STP on end-user ports the correct thing.

I never said it was the correct thing. I know it's not. I said it's what I did and gave my reasons for it. Perhaps in the future the decision will be revisited, but it is likely that the switches will be replaced again before that time comes.

For some reason it's being treated as though I've made an error of epic world ending proportion on a whim without doing any cost benefit analysis. :shrug:

If someone screws up and creates a loop and downs the network I'll fix it. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 21:32

xzzy: Mar 5, 2009

Hughmoris posted:

There is something so draining about completing annual training videos and powerpoints. The BMJ should publish a study on the phenomenon.

My org updated a training unit that I took last year and is due every three years. However because it's registered as "new training" I an required to do it immediately so their spreadsheet looks good. As I went through it, absolutely none of the content updated and the questions are the same. It's just a new website.

Jerks.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 21:33

Internet Explorer: Jun 1, 2005

PremiumSupport posted:

I never said it was the correct thing. I know it's not. I said it's what I did and gave my reasons for it. Perhaps in the future the decision will be revisited, but it is likely that the switches will be replaced again before that time comes.

For some reason it's being treated as though I've made an error of epic world ending proportion on a whim without doing any cost benefit analysis.

If someone screws up and creates a loop and downs the network I'll fix it. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

PremiumSupport posted:

Look, I appreciate that STP is a useful tool and totally has a place in many orgs. Mine is not one of them.

whatever duder, do what you want

people are just telling you you're making it seem like some incredibly difficult thing. it would take 15 minutes to fix.

got new switches and disabled STP, can't fix until they replace the new switches with newer switches, but doesn't have the resources. it's a not for profit, you wouldn't understand.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 21:40

Internet Explorer: Jun 1, 2005

I can't believe I'm arguing about STP here. The loser here is me. You win.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 21:49

PremiumSupport: Aug 17, 2015

Internet Explorer posted:

whatever duder, do what you want
it would take 15 minutes to fix.

It's only easy if you already know how to do it. It would take you 15 minutes to fix because you know what you're doing. It would take me considerably longer as I would have to research and learn first.

Internet Explorer posted:

I can't believe I'm arguing about STP here. The loser here is me. You win.

Legitimately not trying to argue here, just at a loss as to why this seems to be an issue that gets people so worked up.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 22:02

Ratmtattat: Mar 10, 2004; the hairdryer

PremiumSupport posted:

Legitimately not trying to argue here, just at a loss as to why this seems to be an issue that gets people so worked up.

It's been touched on, but a lot of us here have made similar mistakes in the past and we had to suffer the consequences for it. We'd rather tell you that you're making a mistake and give a general guideline of how to fix it rather than setting you up for failure in the future.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 22:42

dragonshardz: May 2, 2017

PremiumSupport posted:

The buildings are physically separate, yet close enough geographically for a pair of cat-5 cables to link them, one for the internal staff network and one for the wifi. Don't want to go into too much more detail, already posted enough that any coworkers who happen to read this thread could probably figure out who I am.

No, what I mean is, separate switch for the LAN and wLAN?

Why?

I understand having the backhaul for your "remote" AP be a separate cable, but why two different switches entirely?

Are your APs, like, bargain-basement consumer models that each have their own independent network? Even then, why a separate network switch?

PremiumSupport posted:

It's only easy if you already know how to do it. It would take you 15 minutes to fix because you know what you're doing. It would take me considerably longer as I would have to research and learn first.

google.com

"[manufacturer] [model] network switch enable STP"

add "reddit" if you get crap results

congrats, you're 88% of the way to being a professional computer toucher.

dragonshardz fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Nov 2, 2022

# ? Nov 2, 2022 22:46

Filthy Lucre: Feb 27, 2006

dragonshardz posted:

I understand having the backhaul for your "remote" AP be a separate cable, but why two different switches entirely?

Lack of VLAN capability would be one reason.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 22:49

dragonshardz: May 2, 2017

Filthy Lucre posted:

Lack of VLAN capability would be one reason.

i legitimately cannot think of any managed switch that lacks VLAN capability.

i refuse to consider the possibility they're using unmanaged switches in a production environment.

# ? Nov 2, 2022 22:51

Rudager: Apr 29, 2008

dragonshardz posted:

i legitimately cannot think of any managed switch that lacks VLAN capability.

i refuse to consider the possibility they're using unmanaged switches in a production environment.

Is there even a switch that does STP but no other management stuff?

# ? Nov 2, 2022 22:53

Wibla: Feb 16, 2011

PremiumSupport posted:

It's only easy if you already know how to do it. It would take you 15 minutes to fix because you know what you're doing. It would take me considerably longer as I would have to research and learn first.

Not to pile on - but have you considered that learning what STP is, how it works, and how to deal with it in general (and on the switches you have at work) might be valuable enough of a skill as a computer toucher to maybe spend a bit of your own time on?

# ? Nov 2, 2022 22:55

PremiumSupport: Aug 17, 2015

dragonshardz posted:

i legitimately cannot think of any managed switch that lacks VLAN capability.

i refuse to consider the possibility they're using unmanaged switches in a production environment.

Consider it, because we do.

The only managed switches we have are the two I disabled STP on. The rest are unmanaged. The only reason they're managed is because the unmanaged ones were out of stock and I needed replacements ASAP.

Wibla posted:

Not to pile on - but have you considered that learning what STP is, how it works, and how to deal with it in general (and on the switches you have at work) might be valuable enough of a skill as a computer toucher to maybe spend a bit of your own time on?

I am an Accountant, I'm only a computer toucher for my org because I made the mistake of letting it be known that I am good with computers. I have no formal training, and I'm not looking to make a career out of it.

dragonshardz posted:

google.com

"[manufacturer] [model] network switch enable STP"

add "reddit" if you get crap results

congrats, you're 88% of the way to being a professional computer toucher.

How do you think I've gotten as far as I have?

# ? Nov 2, 2022 23:14

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 21:08

vanity slug: Jul 20, 2010

the poo poo that pisses me off is coming from inside the thread

# ? Nov 2, 2022 23:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > More shit that pisses you off: What does that say about the quality of your emails?

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