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oh i thought they got that money from the products they output. i choose to believe the peasants are simply committing favor economy related fraud.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:01
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Tiler Kiwi posted:they have a whole lens system to provide specific map ui that could give much better and precise contextual options and they're all worthless. alas. I would like to find out who has interests in a region from the diplomacy view, for instance.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:02
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Tiler Kiwi posted:oh i thought they got that money from the products they output. I think that's what Subsistence Output is actually supposed to represent, peasants consuming most of the products they make and trading with their neighbors. The products they output are the tiny, tiny surplus that's left over after they've eaten their fill, not the whole of what they're making. It's just that in game terms, it basically just means free money.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:14
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as a workers council but not a command economy, i could keep minimum wage on level 4 pretty effortlessly. 5 however would often tip over without me adding some consumption taxes to mitigate. on 4 i had no consumption taxes, the default middle taxation option on proportional taxation. graduated never seemed worth it as the dividend increases never made up for the income tax shortfall. i only subsidised a small number of things, namely electricity and railway, and late in the game also my non-cash crop agriculture. everything else ran profitable and i was extremely economically stable. some notes tho, i never managed to get past propertied women which may have kept my welfare smaller as the worker pool was only men, and that may have also benefitted from the increased dependants income you get from the social security institution. i havnt tried command eco yet but it sounds like it might be best to avoid it.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:20
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i had to ratchet welfare back to 3 as China. ironically it was probably because i was laser focused so much on reducing the number of peasants, which resulted in more laborers that could take up welfare checks while also driving down the profitability as i was also working to drive down the costs of essentials. but it really did seem like going council caused my state income to hurl itself off a cliff. for a while i could run stuff on the lowest tax margin w/ proportional (or whatever the second to last tax plan is called) taxation without much trouble, but after all capitalists got run out on a rail, i had to raise taxes on everyone else to make up for it e: mind you to any sneering libertarians out there, it did nothing to hurt my gdp and raised SoL substantially across the board... it just hurt state income, so it's a whole different level of meta commentary than just RAND WAS RIGHT SIMULATOR 1900 Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 18:26
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Tiler Kiwi posted:yeah the lack of ai development is most noticeable with emergent resources but they are also extremely loving bad at just regular development tool. Russia sat on its huge forests while the price of wood was sky high. It could just be as simple as the AI using the same busted function that calculates the tooltip profit predictions.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:36
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It's probably that. Also I suspect that the ai might stumble over start up losses where you need to build a factory to supply another specific factory so something's running at a loss
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Nov 2, 2022 18:39
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Stux posted:as a workers council but not a command economy, i could keep minimum wage on level 4 pretty effortlessly. 5 however would often tip over without me adding some consumption taxes to mitigate. on 4 i had no consumption taxes, the default middle taxation option on proportional taxation. graduated never seemed worth it as the dividend increases never made up for the income tax shortfall. i only subsidised a small number of things, namely electricity and railway, and late in the game also my non-cash crop agriculture. everything else ran profitable and i was extremely economically stable. some notes tho, i never managed to get past propertied women which may have kept my welfare smaller as the worker pool was only men, and that may have also benefitted from the increased dependants income you get from the social security institution. Tiler Kiwi posted:i had to ratchet welfare back to 3 as China. ironically it was probably because i was laser focused so much on reducing the number of peasants, which resulted in more laborers that could take up welfare checks while also driving down the profitability as i was also working to drive down the costs of essentials. Honestly, I feel like this might be working as intended? High taxes paying for a developed welfare state vs low taxes and no social safety net is the usual dichotomy presented, and this does seem to model things that way - and even with high taxes, SoL was still going up, right? If you're trying to run low taxes with high welfare it really does force you to ask where exactly the money is supposed to be coming from. Edit: Graduated taxes honestly seems like it's mostly there if you're laser-focused on reducing social inequality, as it might genuinely help even out SoL across the board so that everyone's on a fairly similar footing. There's not much mechanical benefit for doing so, though, since pops don't get envious of the super-rich, so in terms of straight cash flow yeah proportional seems like it's generally the best. Tomn fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 18:42
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Tomn posted:Honestly, I feel like this might be working as intended? High taxes paying for a developed welfare state vs low taxes and no social safety net is the usual dichotomy presented, and this does seem to model things that way - and even with high taxes, SoL was still going up, right? If you're trying to run low taxes with high welfare it really does force you to ask where exactly the money is supposed to be coming from. War reparations. 
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Nov 2, 2022 18:44
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Lawman 0 posted:I think it should be basically be locked behind a bunch of other barriers and give some massive downsides like an attraction bonus to fascism and reactionaries or whatever. At the very least it should be tied to a higher level tech rather than be available by like 1840. Probably an institution too. Just because the law says you're multicultural means poo poo if there isn't ongoing government support. Things like actual law enforcement against racists, education standards, fair hiring policies, minority language/religious protections you know, the poo poo 21st century governments haven't figured out out yet. And yeah, a bunch of radical racist fuckers to beat down and some other challenges to overcome. I like that the game tells you that multiculturalism is hands down the best policy, but it should be an end-game goal where it's a huge, multi-stage accomplishment to achieve rather than just a no-brainer button click.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:46
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oh yeah my sol was through the roof and my per capita gdp was over £20. also worth mentioning my entire development thru that save file was completely focused on my lower strata pop needs rather than market. i used the market to see inputs i was lacking and to check how cheap i had pushed needed goods. i put everything on import favored and i only exported 1 (one) product ever, which was basic clothes at end game bcos my pops needed luxury clothes and the regular clothes surplus was ridiculous. i just tried to push whatever was taking up the most of their income cheaper whenever possible. not a complaint and it felt like it was working as intended but it does sound like command economy mandating subsidisation might be causing issues for people that arent there w a council republic where it remains optional. obiovusly u can run both but i mean if you want to do the whole socialist thing, might be worth considering leaving command off
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Nov 2, 2022 18:49
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Lawman 0 posted:What I'm saying really is that your pops should be composed of 95% insane assholes until like 1920 that throw constant tantrums when they don't get their preferred treats.  It's pretty dumb that as start game USA I can easily ban slavery and turn multiculturalist. Even as, say, Japan with its explicit shogunate modifiers, it's not very hard to pull shenanigans as long as you keep an eye on your interest groups.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:57
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Have multiculturalism kick off a tanzimat style reform journal entry where you have to hit some incredibly difficult challenges to actually get your policies to stick
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Nov 2, 2022 18:59
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Tomn posted:Sorry, but I don't think this is actually at all true, I could very well be wrong, but your points don't convince me of this. I think you misunderstood some things I tried to explain. Tomn posted:Notice that although everybody is paid a different amount, that's just because the size of the pop is different - if you look at the column on the right, you'll notice that everyone is paid exactly the same per pop, in a calculation that's simply the base wage for the entire factory multiplied by the pop's profession. Tomn posted:...here's no "legacy hiring" system, everyone gets hired at the same basic wage times their profession, and that basic wage alters dynamically based on market conditions... Tomn posted:This is from a freshly conquered province with very low market access... I believe this is a bad example to look at because there are tons of variables at play. No market access means the prices the pops have to pay for goods they use is completely out of whack, so the wages at that plant are in complete turmoil. Also, the tooltip in the first screenshot that "shows the average needed wage to sustain wealth in lombardy: 0.33" is confusing in general, because that value is the average over all worker types in the building. So that value mixes laborers, capitalists, machinists, engineers working in that factory. Look at this example. This is a textile mill built in a colony shortly before a port was even built. At that time, required wage to sustain current wealth was rock bottom, so the wages paid reflect that.   As you can see, the base wage for the mill is rock bottom. Now, by employing the workers in this mill, their wealth has risen, so the average wages needed to sustain the wealth of each strata has gone up. The peasants wages reflect that as well, they are now higher on average than the ones in the mill. So lets see what happens if I build a new tooling workshop.    The freshly built tooling workshop hires at a way hire base wage than the established texture mill. Now, the wage for the tool shop are significantly higher because at this point, the port had also finished and paid a higher government wage, so that drove wealth up in the state. So the new tool factory hires at that higher average wealth level, although the peasants would still work for far less. The texture mills wages remain low, however. Why? Because when the tool factory starts hiring at the new wealth level, all workers from the textile mill migrate over chasing the higher wages. The textile mill now also starts hiring, but it still uses its own established level of wages. And the only workers willing to still work for these wages are the peasants. So the tool factory hires from the textile mill, and the textile mill hires from the peasants. You can also see that to do so, they had to slightly rise their average base pay to be higher than the peasants. If you were to increase the level of these factories, hiring would follow the same pattern. Increase the texture mill and it will try to hire more workers at its established wage level. So it will employ peasants, since workers in the tool shop are paid better already. If you increase the level of the tool shop, it will do so at it own (higher) wage level. This will again draw employees from the texture mill, which will then hire more peasants. This will work until the state runs out of peasants. If you increaes the texture mills level than, it will again try to hire at its low level, and fail to find workers. So it will gradually increase the wage it until it either becomes unprofitable to do so, at which point it stops, or until it can offer wages high enough to draw workers from the tool shop. This will cause them both to increase wages until the more profitable business wins. Important to note is that when a factory does increase its wages to get new hires, it increases the wages of all the pops already working there to that level as well. Which is why every worker is paid the same per factory. But yeah, this is why the base price varies wildly between different factories, because they start at different points. This is also why the "base wage to sustain wealth" is different from factory to factory. Because that value reflects the wealth level of the pops working in the factory. The workers in the texture mill are way poorer than the workers in the tool workshop, because they were peasants before, which is way they are willing to work for a lower base wage.
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Nov 2, 2022 19:04
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Looks like there were some undocumented changes in the patch, for example Trade Centers now use infrastructure which means you'll want a pretty large buffer in your trade center states so you don't start losing market access when other nations start trade routes without you noticing.
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Nov 2, 2022 19:07
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think my next game after they run a big patch thru will be Russia, while trying to keep things as autocratic as possible
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Nov 2, 2022 19:11
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Tiler Kiwi posted:think my next game after they run a big patch thru will be Russia, while trying to keep things as autocratic as possible I tried that as the Dutch East Indies and it wasn't particularly hard, though the insane amounts of cash crops are mostly to thank. At one point the metropole decided to become a British protectorate so I had access to the biggest market in the world, and also their immigrants which after assimilation left me with like 1/8 of the Indies being Dutch by the 30s lmao. There were a lot of revolts but I (with a heavy heart) mercilessly crushed everyone one.
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Nov 2, 2022 19:34
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Agean90 posted:It's probably that. Also I suspect that the ai might stumble over start up losses where you need to build a factory to supply another specific factory so something's running at a loss This definitely seems to be true from what we've seen, and from Lachek's statement that the AI just makes build decisions in the moment. When evaluating build options, the AI ought to have an additional check on high priced inputs or low priced outputs, which then considers available trade, production, or consumption options for that good, and calculates that second step into the profit estimate.
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Nov 2, 2022 19:39
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Roadie posted:
It should literally be like France and the Rhineland in hoi4 where it's A: pretend it's or B: start an immediate civil war. I also banned slavery easily with no civil war though I waited a little bit.
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Nov 2, 2022 19:43
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If you already have worker co-ops, then is there a reason that you need a minimum wage? I figure that co-ops + welfare is a pretty good baseline setup; your workers will not starve if they don't get a job, and places that don't pay well won't attract workers. Your minimum wage is effectively already baked into the welfare at that point, and since workers are sharing in the profits, they'll chase the industries that pay them well.
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Nov 2, 2022 19:44
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Agean90 posted:Have multiculturalism kick off a tanzimat style reform journal entry where you have to hit some incredibly difficult challenges to actually get your policies to stick It should be extra harsh for America as well.
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Nov 2, 2022 19:44
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I like how good multiculturalism is. The game doesn't need to incentivize being racist, or penalize not being racist. Multiculturalism is just plain good. If we want to retain plausibility it should work like feminism. Treating women like people is also a Good Thing that the game should not, and does not, encourage the player to be reluctant about at all (tiny drop in growth not withstanding). Instead the game makes it very difficult to actually get interest groups on board with women's rights. The game could treat true multiculturalism the same way, if it's really necessary to balance. Have no interest groups support it until you reach certain thresholds or find leaders with certain values to push it through. If you take that route there should probably be an intermediate "nondiscrimination" policy that's as easy to get as multiculturalism is now that just reduces discrimination. A lot of interest groups should be pushing to end segregation and stuff like that.
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Nov 2, 2022 19:48
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I mean, that's usually the case but your starting IG traits are all somewhat randomized.
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Nov 2, 2022 19:52
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Eiba posted:I like how good multiculturalism is. The game doesn't need to incentivize being racist, or penalize not being racist. Multiculturalism is just plain good. i think it does a disservice for a game that features the disembowelments of several continents by colonizer nations to not examine how capitalism and class dynamics drives such behavior. theres a lot of really bad things that are very 'incentivized' to do already, mechanically, such as the aforementioned colonizing and enclosing arable lands to render your working class despondent enough to gain you competitive advantage in the global marketplace - and that is a *problem*, that things can be both morally bad but very, very rewarding for people, and which a lot of those very social movements of the period spent a lot of time and ink documenting and agitating about, racism and patriarchy included. e: like a big problem is, a lot of interest groups were also very, very key to *preserve* segregation, and they are often the ones with all the money, and guns, and votes, and so forth. Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 19:59
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Tomn posted:Edit: Unrelated, but one funny thing about ownership shares - art academies can actually make academics owners of the art academies in the form of "independent artists," so if you manage to get a thriving market for art you can potentially boost the power of the intelligensia by making independent art academies as far as the eye can see. Hell, if you're willing to eat the cost you can even boost the power of intelligensia by making independent artist academies beyond what the market can bear and then providing huge government grants to ensure full employment and income. Salon, Vienna, 1918 "What's this dear chap, how is it that you've managed to become wealthy enough as to purchase a chalet in the Swiss Alps on a professor's salary?" "Why I am surprised you've not already read about it in the evening gazette -- tell me, my good man, do you know about NFTs?"
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Nov 2, 2022 20:04
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Dirk the Average posted:If you already have worker co-ops, then is there a reason that you need a minimum wage? I figure that co-ops + welfare is a pretty good baseline setup; your workers will not starve if they don't get a job, and places that don't pay well won't attract workers. Your minimum wage is effectively already baked into the welfare at that point, and since workers are sharing in the profits, they'll chase the industries that pay them well. i want them to be even richer so i can sell all the porcelain im making to my own population
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Nov 2, 2022 20:04
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Eiba posted:I like how good multiculturalism is. The game doesn't need to incentivize being racist, or penalize not being racist. Multiculturalism is just plain good.
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Nov 2, 2022 20:07
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It is definitely too easy to become a multicultural paradise. Like, yes, I too would like Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism, but I want to actually work for it.
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Nov 2, 2022 20:10
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Eiba posted:I like how good multiculturalism is. The game doesn't need to incentivize being racist, or penalize not being racist. Multiculturalism is just plain good. I don't think that anyone here disagrees with multiculturalism or women's rights being an objectively good thing. It's just that this is the 1800's and early 1900's. Racial tensions and women struggling for political relevance are a big deal in that time period. Hell, the US didn't pass the civil rights act until 1965, and while things have certainly gotten better since the 1830s, racism and institutional racism are still very much alive and well in the modern day US. A one and done button that ends discrimination doesn't really model that. It should be a grueling battle to get people on board with the idea. I'd actually like to see more tiers in the laws for multiculturalism, and more tiers for women's rights as well, and then require that each law be passed in sequence rather than just jumping straight to the endgame. And in the end, even from just an economic standpoint, both are very advantageous. Allowing women to work increases your workforce massively. Allowing other cultures to have the same legal status increases your migration substantially, which in turn leads to more workers. The cost is the massive social upheaval that it takes to get there.
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Nov 2, 2022 20:11
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The funniest post itt is the goon on release day who said the mixed reviews were due to Paradox correctly modeling the Civil War being caused by slavery. Anyways, I had a chance to play a little and I do think it's fun but I'm going to let some of the jank be patched before I leap head first into a full campaign.
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Nov 2, 2022 20:12
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Outside the suggestion that it should make more fascists, I don't think anyone has suggested penalizing anyone? The suggestion is to make it hard to actually do, and to not pretend like Tolerant Imperialism is a coherent idea that definitely makes sense. i think the idea theyre implementing where you get to have a big pool of loyalists who back up your hosed up system is pretty on the level in how/why those systems propagated so much. but its kind of hard to capture the element of how the state is an apparatus of the ruling class, since the player is some disembodied Will Of The State that often acts deliberately against the ruling ideology / elected parties, so there's not really a way to accurately incentivize being a fuckwit evil slug in that way since you do not want to protect the rights of the various rentier classes to exploit everyone.
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Nov 2, 2022 20:13
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MinistryofLard posted:Either the game massively overuses the bandit trait or the career transition from literal highwayman ro politician or general was very common in 19th century Australia.   (Also not a fan of Vicky getting a huge arbitrary popularity boost, which isn't even historically accurate for the time period the game starts in.  )
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Nov 2, 2022 20:15
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Still not really sure what the functional difference is between council rule and presidential rule besides IG approval (maybe law access too?). I didn’t even know what it was when I clicked on it, and there’s a red star on my flag now but domestic politics seems to work the same way. Same term limits.
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Nov 2, 2022 20:17
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Still not really sure what the functional difference is between council rule and presidential rule besides IG approval (maybe law access too?). I didn’t even know what it was when I clicked on it, and there’s a red star on my flag now but domestic politics seems to work the same way. Same term limits. its the same its just there are no capitalists or aristocrats anymore, at all.
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Nov 2, 2022 20:20
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The systematic differences are never going to be well preserved because you are the system. Your not going to implement obviously bad systems unless your just role playing
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Nov 2, 2022 20:25
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I started a war against a neighbouring country but for some reason there isn't a front. What's going on here? Is this some bug and I have to wait until they or I give up?
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Nov 2, 2022 20:25
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elbkaida posted:I started a war against a neighbouring country but for some reason there isn't a front. What's going on here? Is this some bug and I have to wait until they or I give up? Is the shared border impassable?
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Nov 2, 2022 20:26
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Tiler Kiwi posted:i think the idea theyre implementing where you get to have a big pool of loyalists who back up your hosed up system is pretty on the level in how/why those systems propagated so much. but its kind of hard to capture the element of how the state is an apparatus of the ruling class, since the player is some disembodied Will Of The State that often acts deliberately against the ruling ideology / elected parties, so there's not really a way to accurately incentivize being a fuckwit evil slug in that way since you do not want to protect the rights of the various rentier classes to exploit everyone. Tulul posted:
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Nov 2, 2022 20:28
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The ease of getting multiculturalism is because its supported by the intelligentsia. That should be changed, as the 19th century was not the century of social liberal academia, it was the century of racial science.
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Nov 2, 2022 20:44
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Does anyone have any tips on how to break the backs of the landlords? I've mostly industrialized and are down to about 10% clout, but I can't get them out of the government. It's getting ridiculous. I switched to voting and a weird army and petite bourgeoisie party won. I went to reform the government to get the landlords out and it told me that the landlords wanted to join the winning party and I had to keep them in government. Is it because I have a king that's in the landlord faction?
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Nov 2, 2022 20:49
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