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Arrath posted:Is the shared border impassable? Not that I can tell (do you have an example of such a case?). It's the west and east halves of the Saxony region. I believe I tried a war at some earlier point in the game and there was a front but one of the other neighbours might have been involved as well.
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Nov 2, 2022 20:51
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Still not really sure what the functional difference is between council rule and presidential rule besides IG approval (maybe law access too?). I didn’t even know what it was when I clicked on it, and there’s a red star on my flag now but domestic politics seems to work the same way. Same term limits. yeah its only a minor change really. it only replaces every single buildings production method and entirely disenfranchises the upper class, while providing a gigantic political boost to the lower class. its crazy it doesnt tell you this specifically directly on the tool tip.
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Nov 2, 2022 20:54
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Stux posted:yeah its only a minor change really. it only replaces every single buildings production method and entirely disenfranchises the upper class, while providing a gigantic political boost to the lower class. its crazy it doesnt tell you this specifically directly on the tool tip.  There's a ton of this poo poo where the game just doesn't bother to explain anything and leaves you wondering "so what's the difference here, even?". Edit: Why even hide what's currently in the tool tip in the tool tip, instead of just putting it, like, on the Goddamn screen? There's only five things to pick and it's all huge text and spacing, there's more than enough space to just put the description in right there. Roadie fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 20:59
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Outside the suggestion that it should make more fascists, I don't think anyone has suggested penalizing anyone? The suggestion is to make it hard to actually do, and to not pretend like Tolerant Imperialism is a coherent idea that definitely makes sense. Fascism can be a response to an attempt to enact multiculturalism, or a movement to repeal it shortly after it's enacted, with reactionary mechanics the game already represents. Maybe multiculturalism will make the PB unhappy long term. But I think these effects are already in the game. Adding a perpetual fascism attraction to multiculturalism is the wrong way to balance it and the wrong way to model it. If the argument is that it's too easy to enact and the forces against it aren't modeled, I agree. I was trying to suggest that the way they model feminism with a bunch of events is a good potential solution, rather than messing about with modifiers that make it mechanically worse. In any case I really like that there's an option to not be evil. Just because the time period is grim doesn't mean the player has to be.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:00
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I feel like that should be more of a Long Reign sorta deal, where a monarch that has ruled through a long period of at least relative contentment gets increasingly better publicity. In the current state of the game I feel like this would lead to every European country being more stable thanks to every monarch living well into their 90s.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:01
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Stux posted:yeah its only a minor change really. it only replaces every single buildings production method and entirely disenfranchises the upper class, while providing a gigantic political boost to the lower class. its crazy it doesnt tell you this specifically directly on the tool tip. If you’re being sarcastic then why did it feel no different after switching? Am I too stupid for this game?
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Nov 2, 2022 21:03
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Demon_Corsair posted:Does anyone have any tips on how to break the backs of the landlords? I've mostly industrialized and are down to about 10% clout, but I can't get them out of the government. Yes, you get a pretty big legitimacy loss if the interest group your leader belongs to isn't in government.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:03
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Tiler Kiwi posted:theres a lot of really bad things that are very 'incentivized' to do already, mechanically, such as the aforementioned colonizing and enclosing arable lands to render your working class despondent enough to gain you competitive advantage in the global marketplace - and that is a *problem*, that things can be both morally bad but very, very rewarding for people, and which a lot of those very social movements of the period spent a lot of time and ink documenting and agitating about, racism and patriarchy included. but the issue is that enclosure is good for the peasants in a competent player-run country. you generally have like, a healthcare system and dynamite and workplace safety by the time you start really enclosing peasants in earnest so they just emerge from their family farm life into fully automated luxury communism enclosure should happen earlier in general (the peasants don't want to come in and work in textile mills, you have to reduce the arable land to get them to do it) and be way more disruptive Jazerus fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 21:04
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elbkaida posted:Not that I can tell (do you have an example of such a case?). It's the west and east halves of the Saxony region. I believe I tried a war at some earlier point in the game and there was a front but one of the other neighbours might have been involved as well. Yeah, I don't see anything of the sort in that place. As an example, there are impassable bits on the eastern borders of Los Rios and Santiago in Chile, bordering Mapuche and Mendoza, respectively. This has the effect of splitting the otherwise continuous border with Argentina into a northern and southern front for any wars (once Argentina colonizes farther south into Mapuche, anyway). 
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Nov 2, 2022 21:05
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Thinking about the whole "the game just doesn't want tell you poo poo about anything" issue, I wonder how much the gameplay experience would be improved by a mod that just adds a paragraph or three of explanation to the tooltips on authority types, production methods, etc. For example, imagine if the tooltips for the aristocrat/capitalist/bureaucrat production type swaps actually had line item summaries in the tooltips of the trade-offs of each of those employment types.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:15
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Eiba posted:The fascism suggestion was the one I had in mind when I said it didn't need penalties. I don't like the implication that an actual lack of discrimination will destabilize your society. Slim Jim Pickens posted:The ease of getting multiculturalism is because its supported by the intelligentsia. That should be changed, as the 19th century was not the century of social liberal academia, it was the century of racial science. Pakled posted:In the current state of the game I feel like this would lead to every European country being more stable thanks to every monarch living well into their 90s.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:17
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elbkaida posted:I started a war against a neighbouring country but for some reason there isn't a front. What's going on here? Is this some bug and I have to wait until they or I give up? This happened to me with Greece and the Ottomans. I had to naval invade.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:18
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Demon_Corsair posted:Does anyone have any tips on how to break the backs of the landlords? I've mostly industrialized and are down to about 10% clout, but I can't get them out of the government. If they're already down to 10%, it should be that big a deal if you're forced to include them in government, they won't really be able to do anything. Are you playing as Japan and going for the Meiji Restoration? An alternative option for that is to just decide you won't be passing any laws for the next 10 years, ignore the low legitimacy and put whoever you want in government until you complete the journal entry (it's also 10 cumulative years, not consecutive, so if you absolutely need to pass something, you can throw them back in government for a bit for the legitimacy boost, then kick them back out once you've tot he law you want).
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Nov 2, 2022 21:19
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:The ease of getting multiculturalism is because its supported by the intelligentsia. That should be changed, as the 19th century was not the century of social liberal academia, it was the century of racial science. Sometime after like 1870 the "Woodrow Wilson switch" should be flipped and the intelligentsia should get advanced placement racism.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:21
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Schnitzler posted:I could very well be wrong, but your points don't convince me of this. I think you misunderstood some things I tried to explain. Now that's interesting - I think you've got a good grip on the exact market mechanics in play to adjust hiring and firing prices, but I'm not as convinced of the link between wealth levels and wages (at least, not past initial founding), and I'm dead certain you're wrong about what exactly the basic wage means. So let's start with the basic wage thing, since that can be quickly proved: It is NOT an average of the wealth of all workers in the state, or in the factory. Although different pop types are all paid differently, they're all derived from the exact same basic wage, with each pop type getting a multiplier based on what their profession is, but it's all based on the same basic wage. Let's illustrate:  Here's a tooltip showing the capitalists in this chemical factory in Lombardy. You'll notice that the "average wage to sustain wealth" is .33, and that each individual capitalist is getting paid 2.03 - that is, almost exactly the Base Wage (.33) times the capitalist Wage Factor (x6), accounting for minor rounding errors. Now let's look at some engineers in the same factory:  Again, using the same Base Wage (.33), but this time multiplied by the Engineer Wage Factor (x3) to get the pay of the engineer (1.01). And Machinists?  Once again, Base Wage (.33) times Machinist Wage Factor (x1.5) to get final annual wage (.5) So who gets paid the actual base wage?  Laborers, that's who - their wage factor just the Base Wage, one for one. In each example, final annual wage is then multiplied by the workforce of the pop, and then divided by 52 weeks to get the actual weekly wage paid out per pop by the factory, shown in each tooltip on the left. This formula is consistent across all factories and all states - every pop type gets the exact Wage Factor for their type, the only difference is what the Base Wage is, as demonstrated here with a considerably better-off capitalist in another state drawing the same x6 base wage:  Now you're right that Lombardy in my examples here is kind of an odd case because of the disruptions caused by poor market access, and that's true - but it should still serve perfectly well for demonstrating that the base wage isn't really directly tied to wealth at all, and at best might determine a starting wage that'll quickly be overtaken by market conditions. So let's go back to Lombardy: It's currently listing .33 as the basic wage needed to sustain wealth in that factory. Does it?  gently caress no, it doesn't. As you can see, these laborers are indeed earning .33 per workforce member at the most basic of base wages, but their wages are insanely inadequate to maintain their current level of wealth, are badly outspent even by the wages of their dependents doing odd-jobs, are being kept remotely afloat by welfare payments and all that is STILL not enough to keep them from sliding down wealth levels, which has been happening on a catastrophic scale throughout Lombardy as this crisis goes on. This basic level of pay, the lowest in the entire factory, isn't even enough to sustain a laborer at their existing wealth levels. The only reason that factory is paying such wages is purely because it can't afford anything else. Now, it is indeed possible that when first founding a factory, wages are calculated based on rough levels of income necessary to sustain wealth in the state - given that the base wage is the same for all pops, I'd argue that if so this is likely based on the average SoL for the entire state, rather than a breakdown by strata or pop type or anything like that. As you point out, though, that should rapidly get overtaken by market fluctuations afterwards unless you're being exhaustively careful to micromanage individual buildings - and even then your plans might get overtaken by market shocks you had little control over. With regards to colonies specifically, it does seem to be true that relying on the lower starting wage granted by colonial exploitation can allow some wild wage differences between plantations, but then the question becomes "What are you using your colonies for?" Using them for profitable factories is something of a waste since being unincorporated, you can't actually get any taxes out of them and you only loosely benefit from their dividends and consumer demand. Much more likely that your colonies primarily exist to service your vast need for raw materials, and in that case fiddling over the individual profitability of a given building isn't as important as just building every last oil rig and opium plantation as you can. Overall, trying to control buildings based on manipulating wages as you describe seems to me to likely not be really worth the effort compared to just slamming down what you need, as you need it, at least in the mid-to-late game - you may be on to something regarding how to manage the early game. Again, your explanation of how factories choose to decide wages and how individual workers make the decision to move from one factory to another seems to make sense - but I would argue that wealth isn't really the deciding factor here, raw wages and needs are (though thinking about it, perhaps I'm overfocusing on your specific use of words and we're actually talking about the same actual concept?) The question is always going to be how much money can the pops actually make, and how easily they can fill their basket of needs with that income - wealth is just a way of keeping score, as it were. I do note, however, that if your model is correct it is MUCH easier to reduce wages than it is to raise them - all you need to reduce wages is to crash the profitability of a given building, which isn't that hard to do if you fiddle with supply of the input goods, while conversely to raise wages you specifically need to create a labor shortage in the state - much more difficult to set up and sustain, though possible if you have massive migration and truly spectacular building practices. I'm not sure if I'd call that a problem in the simulation or accurate and working as designed, to be honest.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:21
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Pakled posted:In the current state of the game I feel like this would lead to every European country being more stable thanks to every monarch living well into their 90s. This also needs to be fixed immediately.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:25
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Lawman 0 posted:This also needs to be fixed immediately. Yeah, it's very strange to make a trip through my roster of generals and find they're all 85+ boomers and despised by the public/their IG members. Then they die as soon as they get the sack. Arrath fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 21:27
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Lawman 0 posted:This also needs to be fixed immediately. especially since an immortal william of orange means luxembourg is never up for grabs  also for the love of marx let us middle click to immediately lock tooltiips
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Nov 2, 2022 21:31
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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:especially since an immortal william of orange means luxembourg is never up for grabs You can do this! It's one of the options in settings.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:31
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Pakled posted:In the current state of the game I feel like this would lead to every European country being more stable thanks to every monarch living well into their 90s. playing a game and clicking on britain to see 100 year old victoria is a loving jump scare
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Nov 2, 2022 21:32
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Roadie posted:
try reading
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Nov 2, 2022 21:33
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:The ease of getting multiculturalism is because its supported by the intelligentsia. That should be changed, as the 19th century was not the century of social liberal academia, it was the century of racial science. General support/oppose should probably be more dynamic based on the pop-based growth/decline in clout for an IG if it were to be passed; if academia is already drawn from the dominant culture they'll come up with racial science, if they're in a situation like the Han intelligentsia under the Manchu, Multiculturalism might be more appealing than one of the heritage-keyed options, but Cultural Exclusion, Five Races Under One Banner, should be yet more appealing. The downside of the latter two, if one needs to exist, should be that high radicalism in plurality- or majority-minority states should lead to secession movements. I mean, it should in general and especially Multiculturalism should reduce it, but if you've maneuvered into having an Imperial and Royal Dual Monarchy so the Hungarians are happy, and poo poo starts to go south for other reasons, they should in turn start wondering why their sectioned-off self-contained government needs a Hapsburg at its head.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:35
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Stux posted:try reading Yes, I'm sure just reading will solve the problem of the game literally not telling the reader simple things people have been debating about for pages, like where the definition of basic wages even comes from.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:39
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A Buttery Pastry posted:As long as it's consistent, and you actually have to commit to it, rather than letting you live out some feminist/multicultural imperialism fantasies. Actually adding pro-fascist attraction based on multiculturalism I agree isn't a great way to go. I think multiculturalism and imperialism are obviously way more inherently at odds, but the game doesn't actually prevent or discourage you from doing imperialism on your own race to start with, so there aren't exactly systems in place to stop you from conquering Africa just because you believe in the equality of races. I'm not saying imperial utopias are cool and good. But I don't understand why it's important for the game to prevent them in this case. Honestly I think getting rid of intelligencia support for multiculturalism might address most of the plausibility issues. If you get a reformer leader of a powerful interest group you could do something ahistorically progressive, but just getting the 19th century intelligencia in power shouldn't be all it requires for a perfect racial utopia.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:41
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some folks apparently don’t know you can middle mouse click to go into tooltips immediately to hover and further deep dive
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Nov 2, 2022 21:44
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To be honest if you make it go hard to accomplish your goals then your gutting most of the games actual appeal
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Nov 2, 2022 21:45
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Roadie posted:Yes, I'm sure just reading will solve the problem of the game literally not telling the reader simple things people have been debating about for pages, like where the definition of basic wages even comes from. it will solve the specific thing we're talking about, where the game tells you unambiguously what it does
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Nov 2, 2022 21:47
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Waifu Radia posted:some folks apparently don’t know you can middle mouse click to go into tooltips immediately to hover and further deep dive I do think that the amount of information that exists exclusively in nested tooltips is a bit of an issue and why a lot of people are missing things that should be fairly basic information like "what goods do my pops actually want". The nested tooltips are a good idea and mostly work well for the information they provide (although they do have an annoying habit of disappearing after locking if you mouse over something else that creates a tooltip on the way to try to get your mouse inside the locked tooltip), but it feels like a lot of that information should be in more than one place, just to make sure that people can find it in whatever way feels most intuitive to them.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:59
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I think there is information that needs moving out of nested tooltips to top level something for sure.
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Nov 2, 2022 22:03
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The Cheshire Cat posted:(although they do have an annoying habit of disappearing after locking if you mouse over something else that creates a tooltip on the way to try to get your mouse inside the locked tooltip) Oh how many times I've tried to gloat over how much prestige I'm getting from being the #1 producer of a bunch of goods, but block my view of that tooltip by popping up the explainer for prestige. Waifu Radia posted:I think there is information that needs moving out of nested tooltips to top level something for sure. At-a-glance indicator of the top 3 most expensive goods for each strata, please and thank you.
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Nov 2, 2022 22:04
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:If you’re being sarcastic then why did it feel no different after switching? Am I too stupid for this game? There is a difference, and the tooltip actually DOES explain what will happen if you're willing to mouse through nested tooltips a bit, but you do have to be paying attention somewhat to realize the effects, like a lot of the game. To break it down somewhat, first thing is that all your capitalists and aristocrats are fired and ownership of buildings is replaced by turning every lower strata working in them into owners of the buildings. This, unsurprisingly, kneecaps the wealth and power of the upper class and while they'll struggle on for a while burning through their savings and getting Extremely Angry About The Situation, sooner or later they'll either emigrate or demote to another pop type that's more accepting of the new order. That anger shouldn't really come out to much, because Council Republic ALSO provides a big boost to the political power of the working class, meaning whatever 1% squawking is happening should be drowned out by the jubilation and satisfaction of the working class. In order to get Council Republic passed in the first place anyways odds are you've already went for more democratic forms of voting so the accumulated wealth of the upper class likely doesn't count for as much as it once did anyhow. So much for the political effects, but now we get into the economic effects and boy, buckle up because you're in for a bit of a ride. To start with, check your investment pool in one of the budget tabs: Have you noticed that investment pool income has suddenly dropped to zero? See, it used to be that capitalists and aristrocrats took the profits from the buildings they owned and put it into the investment pool to pay for your construction, but you just fired all of them. There's no more money coming into the investment pool, and what's left is all you're getting after which you'll have to pay for all construction directly from the state budget. If you haven't prepared for that, it might be a bit of an unpleasant shock a little ways down the line when your budget suddenly explodes and you're not sure why. If you hadn't already done so I'd really, really suggest you either get graduated taxation, or better yet proportional taxation - you're going to need it. But it's not all bad news! See, the investment pool was fed out of dividends - i.e., the profits from the factories, part of which was sent to the investment pool and part of which went straight into the pockets of the upper class. Now that the workers own the factories, however, they get the dividends instead - and ALL those dividends will now make their way into the pockets of the lower class. While the dividends are now going to be divided up amongst a much larger pool of people and won't be as individually impactful, it's still a lot of money and it should significantly boost the SoL of much of your population - which in turn boosts consumer demand, which in turn makes a lot of your factories more profitable and means more wages going to everyone which means yet higher SoL AND more tax income for you. Leaving aside the economic effects on the state treasury, you've successfully redistributed wealth on a massive scale to the working class and materially improved the lives of millions, all at the cost of ensuring that Elon Musk can't buy Twitter on a whim. Congratulations! Edit: Roadie posted:Yes, I'm sure just reading will solve the problem of the game literally not telling the reader simple things people have been debating about for pages, like where the definition of basic wages even comes from. The tooltip for Council Republic actually DOES explain all its effects, which is what that bit of sarcasm was about - but you do have to nose through a series of nested tooltips to fully grasp what's happening, and even then you may not realize the implications just from seeing the pieces on the ground, so to speak. Tomn fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 22:05
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Jazerus posted:but the issue is that enclosure is good for the peasants in a competent player-run country. you generally have like, a healthcare system and dynamite and workplace safety by the time you start really enclosing peasants in earnest so they just emerge from their family farm life into fully automated luxury communism half of that is that you get a lot of free reign as the player to do all that without being shot in the back of the head for it (literally or metaphorically), and also that there is zero pressure on the player atm because the ai nations are absolute clownshoes, economically. you could give every worker a gold plated toilet and get away with it.
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Nov 2, 2022 22:05
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Stux posted:it will solve the specific thing we're talking about, where the game tells you unambiguously what it does    Wow, it sure is convenient how that tells me that it'll remove my entire upper class and what the gameplay impacts of completely removing all my aristocrat/capitalist/bureaucrat jobs are. It sure would suck if I instead had to cross-reference nested tooltips several layers deep just to find out the actual job changes and then go figure out myself what removing all my bureaucrats will actually do to my pop standards of living and average wages. Tomn posted:The tooltip for Council Republic actually DOES explain all its effects, which is what that bit of sarcasm was about - but you do have to nose through a series of nested tooltips to fully grasp what's happening, and even then you may not realize the implications just from seeing the pieces on the ground, so to speak. Tomn posted:Now that the workers own the factories, however, they get the dividends instead Roadie fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 22:07
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thats what its telling you yes. the gameplay impacts should be extremely obvious.
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Nov 2, 2022 22:11
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if u cant possibly concieve of what a workers co-op being forced in every single building in your country might do without looking it up, you may i n fact be too stupid for the game.
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Nov 2, 2022 22:14
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personally i find it a lot more Funny to find out how complex economic simulations behave by pulling a random lever and just seeing everything burn for a while
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Nov 2, 2022 22:17
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Roadie posted:This part isn't even mentioned anywhere at all, as far as I can tell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative
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Nov 2, 2022 22:18
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*presses button and watches every single capitalist, aristocrat, and landlord fall into a giant blender, spewing their guts and entrails across the room as the small folk of my goodly realm scream in primal exultation* well, THAT just happened
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Nov 2, 2022 22:18
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Wow, what a convenient gameplay loop, pausing to read Wikipedia first so you can find out how the hidden mechanics work Stux posted:if u cant possibly concieve of what a workers co-op being forced in every single building in your country might do without looking it up, you may i n fact be too stupid for the game. Forcing through Multiculturalism at the game start date has almost zero impact on your gameplay beyond boosting immigration, so why would I assume that other laws actually do things?
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Nov 2, 2022 22:20
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You're playing Vicky and don't know what a workers coop is? C'mon
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Nov 2, 2022 22:23
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