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My company has always done the whole thing where you get a more and more responsibility, and after you've demonstrated competency at the new level for a while, then you can start pushing the promotion process through. The total bullshit they used to do up until a couple years ago was that one you got the new title, you didn't get the pay raise to go with it until the next annual raise cycle or the 6 month mark after it (barring some exceptional circumstances usually involving internal transfers). They usually timed promotions to be close-ish to these windows, but it could still mean going 2-3 months without the raise. They've wised up since then and give you the pay bump concurrent with the title bump.
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Oct 22, 2022 02:26
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That's pretty much completely normal corporate America. Already work here and want a promotion? Well, prove you can do the job that is level+1 for a while with all the responsibility and none of the pay and maybe eventually we'll think about a formal promo. New hire? Well I guess we'll take a shot on you with very little evidence. Here's the current upper market salary! No mystery why job hopping is often the quickest way to accelerate your career.
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Oct 22, 2022 04:37
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Guinness posted:New hire? Well I guess we'll take a shot on you with very little evidence. Here's the current upper market salary! cant relate
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Oct 22, 2022 05:21
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Team Lead positions in my company and I think often in pharma are management roles. Like a Clinical Development Team Lead manages a group of Clinical Development Leads who in turn manage a few Clinical Trial Physicians. They do all have specific science responsibilities but the CDTL is explicitly a senior management position.
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Oct 31, 2022 08:15
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Methanar posted:cant relate A good way to get top of market at some level is to actually get middle of market at the next level.
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Oct 31, 2022 19:34
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My employee asked for a stipulation upon beginning employment: "If we get bought out and I'm laid off within a year of that, I want 2 months pay as a bonus". It was written into the offer letter as "2 months severance" if such an event occurred. Megacorp buys us out and after 6 months, without being aware of the original arrangement offers everyone in the company being laid off 3 months severance on condition they don't sue or join a class (arbitration only), employee has 30 days to consider the proposal. What's the chance the employee can make the case that those two payments should stack as 5 months? I get the feeling the new company will absolutely say "well, that 2 months is included in the 3 months we're offering" but it was always intended as an extra parachute reward. We're talking an extra $8k or so. I don't have any influence over the new corporate overlord decision making. Is there a way my guy can fast-talk them in to it or otherwise make them think it's not going to be worth the lawyer billable hours to fight on it?
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Nov 1, 2022 19:55
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Sounds like two totally different circumstances to me. You had two months dependant on "If company gets bought out and dude is laid off within a year of that" and then MegaCorp is offering three months to "don't sue or join a class".
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Nov 1, 2022 20:08
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Recruiter couldn't stop asking for a number, last message had 3-4 requests for my expectation over two paragraphs. The levelling wasn't locked down, so I filled in a top of market figure from the higher level. I've now capped my potential comp, but at a Very Big Number. I don't feel great about it, but there's some extenuating circumstances in the role where I think it will be easier to push some number forward. And I'm pretty confident the number I listed is basically top of market for what's realistically the next level. We'll see how it goes. 
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Nov 1, 2022 20:38
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Zero VGS posted:My employee asked for a stipulation upon beginning employment: "If we get bought out and I'm laid off within a year of that, I want 2 months pay as a bonus". It was written into the offer letter as "2 months severance" if such an event occurred. IANAL though.
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Nov 1, 2022 20:51
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I was in a similar situation: negotiated extra week off into my offer, but they put it as "4 weeks vacation instead of 3". The company got acquired and switched to "unlimited", then later switched to "limited, but tracked" and gave everyone 4 weeks. I tried to get my extra week (because it was in lieu of pay, originally), but everybody up the chain said "no, you got it already". ymmv/ianal
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Nov 1, 2022 21:32
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Dik Hz posted:I don’t see how anyone could see it that way tbh. He’s getting 2+1 instead of his contract that says 2. If they want to be pedantic they could just give him the negotiated 2 and be like “here’s what you wanted”. Right, and the contract he signs will almost certainly have language to make it clear "This is the deal you get, so don't sign this if you want something else", especially given it's voluntary. That will invalidate his original agreement. And this is the kind of thing that is worth fighting because otherwise you get everyone doing that every time this happens.
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Nov 1, 2022 21:53
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I don’t see how you can expect to double dip like that though. If I’m selling apples for $2 and someone comes by and offers to buy everyone’s apples for $3, I can’t reasonably expect them to pay me $5. Or if I negotiate a $70k salary and then my fellow workers (who make $50k) and I unionize and everyone makes $80k, I don’t get $100k. Maybe I’m way off base, but that’s such an aggressive ask that I’d side-eye the guy making it. That’s not really how things work.
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Nov 2, 2022 01:29
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Well we don't know that Zero VGS's employee is actually making it or will they be happy with the three months and bail but what's really important is the "on condition" bit (unless that also existed in the severance clause, which we don't know about yet). The fact that the new owners are worried about getting sued is setting off alarm bells for me, and they wouldn't offer people money to waive that right if they didn't think someone was going to exercise it.
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Nov 2, 2022 02:21
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Arquinsiel posted:Well we don't know that Zero VGS's employee is actually making it or will they be happy with the three months and bail but what's really important is the "on condition" bit (unless that also existed in the severance clause, which we don't know about yet). The fact that the new owners are worried about getting sued is setting off alarm bells for me, and they wouldn't offer people money to waive that right if they didn't think someone was going to exercise it. My dude, have you never heard of severance before?
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Nov 2, 2022 04:34
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Lockback posted:My dude, have you never heard of severance before? Yeah this is a Fortune 500 and it's a very cookie-cutter looking severance form, I'm sure they fire it off in every acquisition they do. It says right on the form it was last updated in 2017. Lockback posted:Right, and the contract he signs will almost certainly have language to make it clear "This is the deal you get, so don't sign this if you want something else", especially given it's voluntary. That will invalidate his original agreement. And this is the kind of thing that is worth fighting because otherwise you get everyone doing that every time this happens. That's why I warned him (in a private text, not our Slack lol) to consult a lawyer and not sign it yet (even the severance form said the same thing, recommended to consult an attorney). Looking online I guess there's also the issue of how management was telling us "stick around, we'll find you a position for sure", and by extension I was relaying that to my employee, and the fact that they turned around in the final month and went "lol psyche", is a form of like, sabotaging people's careers to make sure they stick around to help for the whole acquisition. I guess there was a legal term for it but I lost track of what it was.
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Nov 2, 2022 05:06
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Zero VGS posted:Looking online I guess there's also the issue of how management was telling us "stick around, we'll find you a position for sure", and by extension I was relaying that to my employee, and the fact that they turned around in the final month and went "lol psyche", is a form of like, sabotaging people's careers to make sure they stick around to help for the whole acquisition. I guess there was a legal term for it but I lost track of what it was.
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Nov 2, 2022 09:58
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Dik Hz posted:It’s also why the best employees usually gtfo when they catch wind of it rather than sticking around. It’s get out or zone out (and collect severance)
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Nov 2, 2022 10:23
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Yep, honestly I wouldn't even bother with an attorney in this case, there's a reason this sounds like a super cookie cutter buy and gut.
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Nov 2, 2022 15:09
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Lockback posted:My dude, have you never heard of severance before?
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Nov 2, 2022 15:36
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Arquinsiel posted:poo poo's handled by law everywhere I've lived. Anyone trying to stick in "don't sue" clauses into contracts is always suspicious to me. They'd also not be enforceable, but that hasn't stopped people trying. Based on what Zero VGS has posted since it sounds like they pulled a little bait and switch anyway, so they're probably hoping people don't sue for that and three months is enough to make people think it'll cover the gap while they're searching. In the US both the bait and switch and the layoffs themselves (Buying a company and dissolving an entire division) are very legal and common. Frequently companies will offer a severance package (and 3 months is actually pretty generous) for PR and talent retention purposes, also because layoffs can have positive tax implications. Any severance package comes with a variant of "By accepting this you agree not to sue" and it's usually reasonably resilient if the layoff action is at the level of an entire organization and that language also allows you not to put future actions as a liability on your books (which is also really important if you're looking at further buy/sell actions). So its kinda lovely but its not suspect at all and in fact offering a blanket 3 months is, if anything, pretty positive considering most people can probably look forward to a couple double paychecks out of that. Usually it's something like 2 weeks + 1 week for every year served with a ceiling of 3 months.
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Nov 2, 2022 16:09
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I would be so stoked if my company got acquired and I got laid off with 3 months severance. Forget about contracts and lawyers, just take the W, go on vacation, no rush to get a new job.
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Nov 2, 2022 19:36
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Lockback posted:In the US both the bait and switch and the layoffs themselves (Buying a company and dissolving an entire division) are very legal and common. Frequently companies will offer a severance package (and 3 months is actually pretty generous) for PR and talent retention purposes, also because layoffs can have positive tax implications. Any severance package comes with a variant of "By accepting this you agree not to sue" and it's usually reasonably resilient if the layoff action is at the level of an entire organization and that language also allows you not to put future actions as a liability on your books (which is also really important if you're looking at further buy/sell actions).
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Nov 2, 2022 19:38
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leper khan posted:Recruiter couldn't stop asking for a number, last message had 3-4 requests for my expectation over two paragraphs. Hey here's some advice for next time: future leper khan posted:Recruiter couldn't stop asking for a number, so I asked him what the budget was for the position and then they either: It's a numbers game so you're picking your own pocket if your interactions with recruiters are sloppy. If your reply to a recruiter doesn't solicit an answer that has a clear pass/fail condition, rewrite your message with the goal of figuring out ASAP if they are worth your time. Corla Plankun fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 19:49
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Look, I don’t know where you get this lofty assumption that I value my time but…
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Nov 2, 2022 20:33
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Corla Plankun posted:Hey here's some advice for next time: My goal isn't to segregate early whether an offer will be workable. It's to get the highest offer I can. I have a continuous budget of time for talking to other companies to extract real dollars from the market. When offers come in below my range, this still provides significant interview and negotiation experience for me. The act of carrying forward in the process provides me value for my time. The strategy isn't dependent on only talking to people who say they're going to pay top of market from the beginning. I have no problem with getting an offer and then asking for flexibility in leveling and pushing _way above_ that offer. Even if I don't expect agreement with such a counter.
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Nov 2, 2022 21:25
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That strategy sounds terrible and I recommend you experiment with mine but it's your time to spend!
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Nov 3, 2022 00:02
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Corla Plankun posted:That strategy sounds terrible and I recommend you experiment with mine but it's your time to spend! Could be we just have different goals!
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Nov 3, 2022 00:09
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Hello thread! I was posting in the Interview thread and just now got an offer for a position as a public insurance adjuster. This'll be my first full-time, benefited position, so I was wondering what the negotiation process looks like. They're drafting an offer letter to me now, so I'm wondering when and how I should look to improve my compensation a bit. I don't want to undervalue myself, but I am fairly satisfied with the Indeed pay listing ("from $29 per hour") and commission structure (1.9% of our cut of the insurance payout), so I'm wondering if or how much I should push that, and how to focus on non-monetary benefits, like credentials, education, tuition assistance, etc. The job also requires a fair amount of travel for work, but mileage is compensated, as well as room and food while on location. Where should I start, and what should I look at? Thanks!
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Nov 3, 2022 22:34
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They’re writing an offer letter before first agreeing on comp? Usually the negotiations happen before that.
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Nov 3, 2022 23:21
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Adhemar posted:They’re writing an offer letter before first agreeing on comp? Usually the negotiations happen before that. Written offers are commonly delivered and revised as part of the negotiation process. Always negotiate in writing not verbally. If it's not in writing it's not real.
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Nov 3, 2022 23:45
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my fiance has a job offer and is entering negotiations, which are new to her. She is happy with the initial salary offer, which is significantly above what she had been looking for, but the offer has 1 less week of vacation than her previous job (and also 1 less than mine). what should her strategy be for specifically targeting extra vacation? I've suggested asking for both the salary and vacation to be increased, and retreating to just the vacation if they push back; she's not really comfortable with it. My next instinct is to say "i would sign today if an extra week of vacation was included." Does that seem like a prudent step? I figure they either accept or don't, seems unlikely that they'd haggle to half a week of extra vacation. There's not much of a BATNA here, she's pretty much going to accept, but I'm trying to impress on her that there's no downside to asking for more, especially if she's genuinely not happy with the vacation offer.
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Nov 4, 2022 07:07
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It's very difficult to negotiate for extra vacation time at most companies. I've only seen it happen once in my career and that was for a very in demand high level VP. HR credited him enough years of service in the HR system so he got max vacation for the company. You can always ask, but I would say it's 95% going to be a no. I have seen extra vacation days granted when someone is first onboarded, but those are one time days. Is the vacation time reasonable say at least 15 days or is this one of those 10 days vacation after 1 year of service type places.
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Nov 4, 2022 07:34
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Good friend of mine has been working a very stable mainframe job at IBM for... At least a dozen years? She has had some success swapping cash compensation for half or full days of extra vacation. I think she's over 30 days a year now. She bought her house a couple years before the pandemic and doesn't have any expensive hobbies so not really missing the extra income Negotiating a higher baseline of years of service when joining is a good way to get extra vacation. At one old school company I was at, on my third year I went from 14 to 21 days of vacation automatically. It's more rare to hear of that anymore though in the US
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Nov 4, 2022 08:58
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Yeah she can ask for more PTO but 95% it won't be negotiable. At which point she can say "in that case I'm going to need $OFFER+15%". Is this because she's been in her current job a while and is getting a PTO seniority reset, or just that this company is stingy about PTO?
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Nov 4, 2022 13:53
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Maybe I’m lucky or my industry is different but I’ve negotiated increased PTO at both of my last jobs. Both times I’ve framed it as coming in as an experienced professional so of course they’d start me halfway up the PTO ladder.
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Nov 4, 2022 14:12
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Negotiating relative seniority to drive PTO in line with standard policies is possible, but negotiating an exceptional carve out is usually pretty hard.
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Nov 4, 2022 14:16
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Negotiating relative seniority to drive PTO in line with standard policies is possible, but negotiating an exceptional carve out is usually pretty hard. Yeah I did this at my current job, it's not unreasonable.
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Nov 4, 2022 14:32
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Sadly I don’t think reasonable is the remotest concern of most HR departments. My previous job upped mine on counter, no sweat. Another gladly recalculated my time in industry and came back accordingly. Current job is absolutely out of touch and stonewalls any exceptions. So I’ll start earning my next week of vacation at a day per year, starting my tenth loving year. Good thing it’s fully remote.
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Nov 4, 2022 15:39
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:Sadly I don’t think reasonable is the remotest concern of most HR departments. My previous job upped mine on counter, no sweat. Another gladly recalculated my time in industry and came back accordingly. Current job is absolutely out of touch and stonewalls any exceptions. So I’ll start earning my next week of vacation at a day per year, starting my tenth loving year. Good thing it’s fully remote.
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Nov 4, 2022 17:28
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Guinness posted:Written offers are commonly delivered and revised as part of the negotiation process. Always negotiate in writing not verbally. If it's not in writing it's not real. The job is "about 75% travel", as in traveling out to loss sites to document damages, with many of those jobs being far enough away that I'd have to get a hotel. They cover costs of room and food, and reimburse for mileage driven, but do not directly pay for gas. My other interview yesterday went really well that they scheduled me for a second interview this morning. Unfortunately it looks like a pure-commission sales gig going door to door selling AT&T and ADT services.  They'll most likely make me a job offer this afternoon, but I'm not sure if or how I could use this terrible sales offer as leverage for the negotiation. I also turned down the Census offer for being uncompetitive. There's still a decent chance of getting an offer for a staffer position if we win the election, but that's still a week or more away.
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Nov 4, 2022 20:37
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