[Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

What is the most powerful flying bug? This poll is closed.
🦋	15	3.71%
🦇	115	28.47%
🪰	12	2.97%
🐦	67	16.58%
dragonfly	94	23.27%
🦟	14	3.47%
🐝	87	21.53%
Total:	404 votes

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Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

Lostconfused posted:

Ok, but same deal here. Someone's gonna need to denazify US after.

I propose a Strangers on a Train situation where we denazify Canada and Canada denazifys the US

# ? Nov 7, 2022 20:51

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# ? May 23, 2024 08:58

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

tristeham posted:

the US must denazify Canada

# ? Nov 7, 2022 20:56

lobster shirt: Jun 14, 2021

cuba can denazify the united states

# ? Nov 7, 2022 21:05

Freezer: Apr 20, 2001; The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot stay in the cradle forever.

Ardennes posted:

The problem is if the war itself is damaging the West in way that it really doesn't want to have to sustain. The damage being done to the Russia military very well simply not be sustainable in its current form, less because of funding, but because putting pressure on Western economies that can't be easily addressed. You can destroy some Russians tanks etc, but that very well may be fairly minor in the broader calculus as much broader supply issues are gathering pace and interest rates are getting to where a recession may turn into effectively a depression.

A lot of it depends on rates, and that the Fed (along with other major economies) may have to strangle their respective economies to get inflation under control, and the longer the war goes there is going to be a distortion in energy markets and broader global trade.

It may not be public opinion that ends the war, but that there is very real material damage being done to Western economies.

I agree that there will be a point where continuing the war might do more damage to the collective West than to Russia. Furthermore, we might be past that point.

# ? Nov 7, 2022 21:10

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I wish I knew what part of ukriane my Ukraine family was from.

# ? Nov 7, 2022 21:12

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

i say swears online posted:

there are nearly more sikhs in india than there are people in canada

lmao.

# ? Nov 7, 2022 21:15

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

Frosted Flake posted:

must have been per capita.

Though outlier opinion, I love the Regimental and RCMP turbans and I hope we get more Sikhs under the colours.

there's enough sikhs under the colors of the republic that we made an oc donut steel helmet for them which looks like something out of warhammer 40k imperial guard.

# ? Nov 7, 2022 21:18

Armadillo Tank: Mar 26, 2010

Frosted Flake posted:

"The weak international response to Russia�s invasion of Georgia greenlighted Russia�s subsequent military assault on Ukraine. Many senior officials of transatlantic governments with whom I worked to mediate the conflicts over Georgia�s breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia condemned Russia�s invasion, but also blamed then-Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili for provoking Vladimir Putin. Hence, the ceasefire agreement brokered by French President Nicolas Sarkozy was one-sided in favor of Moscow, while the subsequent EU report about the five-day war (incorrectly) blamed Georgia for firing the first shots. Later in 2008, Paris announced plans to sell Russia a Mistral-class helicopter carrier, prompting a Deputy Chief of the Russian General Staff to declare how much easier it would have been to defeat Georgia with the ship already in Russia�s arsenal."

every time i hear about that stupid bullshit i remember waking up at 5:00 AM hearing about georgian rocket arty firing and other attacks on headline news

9:00 AM every loving news site was saying the russians started it

# ? Nov 7, 2022 21:19

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Freezer posted:

I agree that there will be a point where continuing the war might do more damage to the collective West than to Russia. Furthermore, we might be past that point.

I would say also that the "tail" from that damage may be fairly long, you usually work from the demand side or the supply side, but it is sort of tough to do both of them at once.

# ? Nov 7, 2022 21:23

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

Intel Slava Z posted:

🇷🇺 The first finished span of the Crimean bridge is directed to the installation site

The builders have started transporting steel structures weighing more than 300 tons, said Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Marat Khusnullin.

_{(from t.me/intelslava/40705, via tgsa)}

beeg span

# ? Nov 7, 2022 21:27

speng31b: May 8, 2010

https://twitter.com/ChuckPfarrer/status/1589627280099155968

i see the election meddling derangement is starting up again. libs are gonna melt down not understanding that the head of the wagner group "admitting" to US election interference on russian TV is basically the same as "admitting" how massive his dick is. real shocking relevation, please dont hold it against me yall!

# ? Nov 7, 2022 21:34

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

euphronius posted:

I wish I knew what part of ukriane my Ukraine family was from.

There are a lot of resources for Galician Genealogy I stumbled across when looking for maps. I'm guessing they are mostly used for nefarious purposes and veneration of the ~~Fatherland~~ ~~bat'kivshchynu~~ old country but could put to good use, as many look like they exist for Jewish and Polish descended people who "mysteriously" had their connection severed.

Funnily enough while quickly searching for the Ukrainian word for "homeland" writing this post, it turns out Canadian Ukrainians love using "Fatherland" in English which is uh... out of step... with the rest of Canadian society.

Additionally - and I had no idea about this until today and will try to find out more - part of the decision to transplant the Perpetrators and Collaborators to Canada may have been because Too many Ukrainian Canadians had volunteered to fight against Fascism in WW2 which made the Canadian government further suspicious of them as Reds. Please not that the author's tone is about what you can expect in Canada vis a vis Ukraine so "unified and independent Ukraine not always in harmony with the policies of Canada and its allies" means "collaborating with the Third Reich":

The politics of Ukrainian organizations in Canada which sought the establishment of a unified and independent Ukraine were not always in harmony with the policies of Canada and its allies. The Ukrainian left supported German and Russian dismemberment of interwar Poland, while the Ukrainian right recognized neither Polish nor Soviet rule over Ukrainian lands. As a consequence, organizations on both ends of this spectrum came under the scrutiny of the Defence of Canada Regulations. Misgivings about the loyalty of Ukrainians became particularly focused during the 1942 plebiscite called to release Prime Minister Mackenzie King's government from previous pledges to avoid conscription for overseas service. In Alberta the sole riding to register a clear No vote was Vegreville, a constituency in which Ukrainians formed a majority of voters, and where the sitting Member of Parliament was Anthony Hlynka of the Social Credit Party.

Every segment of the organized Ukrainian community favoured releasing the government from its conscription promises. The Ukrainian Canadian Committee urged a unified Yes vote to allow the government to freely explore all military avenues required for the welfare of the nation. The Ukrainskyi holos [Ukrainian Voice] newspaper, published by the Ukrainian Self Reliance League, and the voice of the large Orthodox community, was adamant that not a single vote should be neglected and urged all "in light of their own interest as Canadian citizens concerned about the welfare of Canada" to vote "Yes". In Edmonton, the local Ukrainian Canadian Committee formed a group under Peter Lazarowich to promote a Yes vote, and former MP Michael Luchkowich addressed the community on the subject over radio stations CJCA and CFRN. Ukrainski visti made its own position clear in its editorial, �Let Us Vote 'Yes'�.

In spite of the official unanimity of Ukrainians towards the plebiscite, the community was in fact quite fractured along political lines. In the riding of Vegreville in particular, there were several reasons why the vote went heavily against the Liberal government's plebiscite. During the war years, one of the most powerful organizations within Alberta was the pro-communist Ukrainian Labour Farmer Temple Association [ULFTA). This group condemned fascism, but applauded the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact of 23 August 1939 and, while not openly opposing Canada's participation in the war, was nevertheless suppressed by the Canadian government. On 4 June 1940, the Defence of Canada Regulations outlawed the ULFT A and its newspapers. Many of the association's properties were seized and disposed of and 33 of its leaders interned. After Germany's attack on the USSR on 22 June 1941, the ULFTA reappeared as the Ukrainian Association to Aid the Fatherland, and later as the Association of United Ukrainian Canadians. While the association was officially in favour of a Yes vote during the 1942 plebiscite, there was nevertheless a substantial community of interest among the Ukrainians of Alberta that had reason to vote No as a protest over specific losses suffered at the hands of the Liberal government.

...

Congress participants reiterated that the sacrifices of their sons and daughters in the war effort were to be the final word on the loyalties and rights of Ukrainians in Canada. Congress records note that hundreds of Ukrainians were part of the First Canadian Division. An estimated 11.4 % of Ukrainians in Canada were in uniform, a figure above the national average, and many had already made the supreme sacrifice at Hong Kong and Dieppe. Several hundred commissioned officers among the Ukrainian-Canadians in all branches of the military included Squadron Leaders and a Lieutenant Colonel.

...

Although the estimated number of Ukrainian-Canadian men and women serving in the forces numbers between 30,000 and 50,000, there are in fact no precise data on either the overall figures or the number of recruits from Alberta. In 1946, a commemorative almanac honouring Ukrainian-Canadians in the military listed 252 Ukrainian Albertans wounded in action, 168 killed in action, 68 missing in action and 16 prisoners of war. One of the few verifiable figures on enlistment indicates that of 55,273 enlistees completing occupational history forms, 12,389 listed Ukrainian as a spoken language. Of 43,580 Alberta enlistees, the largest language group registered, other than English, was Ukrainian with 2265 respondents. Of 730,000 personnel of the Canadian Army [Active] from 1939 to 1945, 75,887 [10.80 %] knew English and another language other than French.

I've always thought of the settlement of the Waffen SS in Canada as a betrayal of the nation, and of the Canadian left, but I'm just trying to wrap my head around guys fighting through Normandy or shot down over Berlin realizing that the Nazi collaborators were being settled in their community and given leadership of all of their political and social organizations.

# ? Nov 7, 2022 21:40

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

https://tass.com/economy/1532963

quote:

Trade turnover between Russia and China up 33% in 10M 2022 � China�s Customs
It amounted to $153.938 billion

BEIJING, November 7. /TASS/. The trade turnover between Russia and China soared by 33% year-on-year to $153.94 bln in January - October 2022, the Main Customs Administration of China reports on Monday.

According to released data, China�s export to Russia gained 12.8% within ten months of this year to $59.6 bln. Imports of Russian goods and services surged by 49.9% to $94.34 bln.

Crude oil, natural gas and coal account for the overwhelming portion in the value of commodities imported by China from Russia. Other key items of export from Russia include copper and copper ore, lumber, fuel and seafood. China is exporting a broad range of products to Russia, with a significant share taken by smartphones, industrial and specialized equipment, toys, footwear, motor vehicles, air conditioners and computers.

The trade turnover between Russia and China gained 35.8% in 2021 and reached record-breaking $146.88 bln.

trade number up up up

# ? Nov 7, 2022 21:56

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

Таврическая Республика posted:

_{(Click thumbnail to open video)}
🇺🇦 Легкая техника ВСУ не справляется с осенней погодой

📌 Нацики вязнут в своих траншеях, автомобили застревают на дорогах.

https://t.me/Tauride_Republic

_{(from t.me/Tauride_Republic/2619, via tgsa)}

welcome back general mud

# ? Nov 7, 2022 22:18

Southpaugh: May 26, 2007; Smokey Bacon

Danann posted:

_{(from t.me/Tauride_Republic/2619, via tgsa)}

welcome back general mud

The General may well be rotated back out in time for december.

# ? Nov 7, 2022 22:38

iCe-CuBe.: Jun 9, 2011

https://twitter.com/uamemesforces/status/1589647639678971906

Poor dumb tankies. How can you even compare these two wars?

# ? Nov 7, 2022 22:54

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

iCe-CuBe. posted:

https://twitter.com/uamemesforces/status/1589647639678971906

Poor dumb tankies. How can you even compare these two wars?

100 Orders

�The 100 Orders are �binding instructions or directives to the Iraqi people that create penal consequences or have a direct bearing on the way Iraqis are regulated, including changes to Iraqi law� created in early 2004 by Paul Bremer under the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq. The orders called for the de-Baathification of Iraq as well as extensive economic changes. Most of the economic changes are focused on transitioning the economy of Iraq from a centrally planned economy to a market economy, as outlined in the contract by BearingPoint.�

As Ukraine has decided to privatize their entire state anyway, it blurs the distinction a bit.

# ? Nov 7, 2022 23:01

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

There's pressure on a Canadian Army Journal to retract the article WHITEWASHING THE SS: THE ATTEMPT TO RE-WRITE THE HISTORY OF HITLER�S COLLABORATORS, published October 30, 2020.

esprit de corps posted:

Over the years some Ukrainian Canadians have staunchly defended the 14th SS Division Galicia. They have falsely claimed that Ukrainians who served in the division were conscripted, when in reality 80,000 volunteered and 13,000 were selected. Other apologists argue that the division fought only to protect Ukrainian territory. This too is false.

Then there are the claims that reports about 14th SS Division Galicia are the result of Russian disinformation or propaganda. Marcus Kolga, an Estonian activist with the right-wing Macdonald Laurier Institute in Ottawa, falsely claimed that articles linking the division to the SS and wartime criminal activity have �parroted the Kremlin�s tailored narratives.�

But the most common method that Nazi apologists use to defend the 14th SS Division Galicia is to cite the 1986 Commission of Inquiry on War Criminals in Canada, often referred to as the Desch�nes commission after its chairman, judge Jules Desch�nes.

Supporters of 14th SS say the Desch�nes commission cleared the division and all its members of any involvement in war crimes. �Charges of war crimes of Galicia Division have never been substantiated, either in 1950 when they were first preferred, or in 1984 when they were renewed, or before this Commission,� Desch�nes concluded. �Further, in the absence of evidence of participation or knowledge of specific war crimes, mere membership in the Galicia Division is insufficient to justify prosecution.�

At the time critics labelled the commission�s report as a whitewash. The decades since have further reinforced that view as additional information about the 14th SS Division Galicia�s war crimes have emerged.

Desch�nes either ignored or appeared to be unaware the Waffen SS � which the Galician Division was part of � had been declared a criminal organization by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremberg Trials. This omission is particularly incredible as Canada participated as one of the allied nations in the prosecution of war criminals at the Nuremberg Trials and Canadian Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King actually visited the court and attended some of the trials.

Even a cursory glance at SS Galicia reveals its links to the Nazi campaign of destruction against the Jews and murder of civilians. Its commander was Oberfuhrer Fritz Freitag, a fanatical Nazi, who was directly involved in the mass murder of Jews.

Among the commanding officers of SS Galicia was Ukrainian-born SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Heinrich Wiens, who served with the Einsatzgruppen D murder squad and personally took part in mass executions of Jews. Another division officer, SS Obersturm-bannfuhrer Franz Magall, was also a seasoned killer of Jews.
SS Galicia worked alongside SS-Sonderbattalion Dirlewanger, a unit that contained rapists, murders and the criminally insane and the two organizations, at times, transferred officers between each unit, noted Per Anders Rudling, a historian of Eastern European history and Associate Professor at the Department of History at Lund University, Sweden.

In addition, SS Galicia had officers and NCOs who came from the Nachtigall battalion, a Ukrainian collaboration organization that had taken part in the mass killings of Jews in the summer of 1941, added Rudling, who has extensively studied the division.

In 2003 a Polish government commission into Nazi war crimes concluded the 14th SS Galicia was responsible for the massacre of women and children in the village of Huta Pieniacka. Based on eye witness accounts, the Polish Institute of National Remembrance, pointed out that members of the 14th division, entered the village and began executing civilians.

In 2005 the Institute of History at the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences arrived at the same conclusion. The main difference between its investigation and the earlier Polish government investigation was the number of civilians murdered, added Rudling.

The Ukrainian investigation estimated around 500 people were killed. The Polish commission put the number of those murdered at 700 to 1,500.

Desch�nes and his commission stayed in Canada, never travelling to Europe to interview those who suffered atrocities at the hands of 14th SS Galicia and the Nazis. Even a cursory examination of British government archives would have revealed the report the Polish underground sent to the Polish government-in-exile in London about the massacre at Huta Pieniacka. �The 14th Division of the Ukrainian SS surrounded the village Huta Pieniacka from three sides,� the report to Poland�s government- in-exile explained. �The people were gathered in the church or shot in the houses. Those gathered in the church � men, women and children � were taken outside in groups, children killed in front of their parents. Some men and women were shot in the cemetery, others were gathered in barns where they were shot.�

The 14th SS Galicia is also implicated in other atrocities in four other Polish villages, according to historians.

During part of 1944 the unit was stationed in Slovakia where it was involved in fighting partisans and took part in crushing the Slovak National Uprising. The division then moved to Slovenia in early 1945 where it continued fighting anti-Nazi partisans. These actions undercut claims by some in the Ukrainian-Canadian community that the SS Galicia Division only defended its Ukraine homeland. The division�s operations hunting down partisans, killing civilians, and burning down villages clearly show their actions were part of the greater Nazi war machine.

More concerning is the fact that Desch�nes concealed a report prepared for his commission that concluded, �At least some persons who served with the Nazi-sponsored Ukrainian police/militia units that participated in killing actions (of Jews) in 1941-1943 would have found their way into the ranks of the (Galician) Division.� The commission kept that report secret and it was only years later that a heavily censored copy was released through the Access to Information law.

Some have defended Justice Desch�nes, stating he was under pressure from the Canadian government to clear the division and appease the Ukrainian Canadian community.

But over the decades as Holocaust historians publish more details about the atrocities of those who served in the SS Galicia Division, it has become clear to critics that the Desch�nes commission was simply a whitewash of a military unit that subscribed to and served the ideology of Adolf Hitler and SS leader Heinrich Himmler.

Desch�nes died in the year 2000. But his report lives on to be used by those who want to continue to whitewash the Nazi regime�s crimes and the eager collaborators who helped in those atrocities.

# ? Nov 7, 2022 23:11

Megamissen: Jul 19, 2022; any post can be a kannapost
if you want it to be

Hadlock posted:

mildly suprised to see blue checks in australia and no blue checks in argentina

croatian facists were resettled there after ww2

# ? Nov 7, 2022 23:12

samogonka: Nov 5, 2016

Interesting take at the announced nationalizations

https://twitter.com/anatoliisharii/status/1589700265212420096

He also said the reason why Kolomoisky's Ukrainian citizenship was revoked was that he would be spared capital seizures

# ? Nov 7, 2022 23:13

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Megamissen posted:

croatian facists were resettled there after ww2

As a result of the same conference with the UK that placed Ukrainians in Canada, it should be noted.

# ? Nov 7, 2022 23:19

VitriolicBurn: Mar 27, 2022

I can't speak in much detail on the Canadian-Ukrainian situation, I was a toddler at the time, but from asking my parents and family friends about why the heck the Ukrainian community puts up monuments to the Waffen SS, was told in the early 1980s in Winnipeg there were still sharp divisions between community orgs/cultural associations: the 'Kiev Ukrainian' groups were essentially pro-Soviet, the 'Lvov Ukrainian' groups were Banderites. They hated each other, so you'd get community festivals where there'd be two separate competing Ukrainian pavilions, etc.

So even with the clear intent of the Canadian govt to inject a particular sort of Ukrainian into the population in wake of WW2, the effort doesnt seem to have been successful even decades later. I'm not sure when the tide shifted entirely in favour of the Lvov side, but I suspect the end of the USSR was not unrelated.

# ? Nov 7, 2022 23:20

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

VitriolicBurn posted:

I can't speak in much detail on the Canadian-Ukrainian situation, I was a toddler at the time, but from asking my parents and family friends about why the heck the Ukrainian community puts up monuments to the Waffen SS, was told in the early 1980s in Winnipeg there were still sharp divisions between community orgs/cultural associations: the 'Kiev Ukrainian' groups were essentially pro-Soviet, the 'Lvov Ukrainian' groups were Banderites. They hated each other, so you'd get community festivals where there'd be two separate competing Ukrainian pavilions, etc.

So even with the clear intent of the Canadian govt to inject a particular sort of Ukrainian into the population in wake of WW2, the effort doesnt seem to have been successful even decades later. I'm not sure when the tide shifted entirely in favour of the Lvov side, but I suspect the end of the USSR was not unrelated.

Remember that these Kiev Ukrainian groups immediately sent people to Ukraine to rewrite their constitution, decollectivize agriculture and God knows what else and Freeland still complained that the Ukrainians in Ukraine were not true Ukrainians. I would not be shocked if they also cranked up the pressure at home. They had a free hand to attempt to reshape Ukraine abroad and it still has not succeeded, though 2014 propelled them to new heights.

Also, considering the timespan, it's possible that the less Political Ukrainians assimilated into mainstream Canadian society by the 2000's. Without the fire of irredentism and revanchism burning, as well as a Political project that needed apologia, probably there was less need to get children on board. The German Canadians who grew up bouncing on Opa's knee hearing about the lost territories are probably going to hang onto "Germanness" longer than those who have a German last name and not much else to set them apart. Particularly if their view of the Second World War and its outcome aligns with Canadian society as a whole. I know less about this, but it might have also dovetailed with the end of the USSR as you said.

I haven't seen this reported outside of Canada but Freeland has daily calls with the Ukrainian President and Finance Minister's Offices. She got Petro Poroshenko out of jail singlehandedly. She went on a media blitz to punish the Premier of Alberta for speaking out against the war - https://globalnews.ca/news/9215922/danielle-smith-russia-ukraine-comments-chrystia-freeland/. She's the frontrunner to become the NATO Secretary General, which if she has a free hand, almost certainly means I'll die abroad and some of you may die at home lol jfc https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/04/world/europe/nato-next-secretary-general.html. Canada is issuing Bonds for Ukraine at her directive https://globalnews.ca/video/9234664/canadas-finance-minister-responds-to-ukrainian-sovereignty-bonds/. Her sole response to inflation, and indeed "energy, economy, climate" has been to blame Russia https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/freeland-putin-us-1.6613523.

We let the Minister from CSIS (look into it) accumulate power at our peril, and now Canada's strength, such that it is, has been harnessed for her pet project.

# ? Nov 7, 2022 23:36

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

Anybody post that Biden is a Putin puppet yet?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/senior-white-house-official-involved-in-undisclosed-talks-with-top-putin-aides-11667768988

# ? Nov 7, 2022 23:44

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

Frosted Flake posted:

Remember that these Kiev Ukrainian groups immediately sent people to Ukraine to rewrite their constitution, decollectivize agriculture and God knows what else and Freeland still complained that the Ukrainians in Ukraine were not true Ukrainians. I would not be shocked if they also cranked up the pressure at home. They had a free hand to attempt to reshape Ukraine abroad and it still has not succeeded, though 2014 propelled them to new heights.

Also, considering the timespan, it's possible that the less Political Ukrainians assimilated into mainstream Canadian society by the 2000's. Without the fire of irredentism and revanchism burning, as well as a Political project that needed apologia, probably there was less need to get children on board. The German Canadians who grew up bouncing on Opa's knee hearing about the lost territories are probably going to hang onto "Germanness" longer than those who have a German last name and not much else to set them apart. Particularly if their view of the Second World War and its outcome aligns with Canadian society as a whole. I know less about this, but it might have also dovetailed with the end of the USSR as you said.

I haven't seen this reported outside of Canada but Freeland has daily calls with the Ukrainian President and Finance Minister's Offices. She got Petro Poroshenko out of jail singlehandedly. She went on a media blitz to punish the Premier of Alberta for speaking out against the war - https://globalnews.ca/news/9215922/danielle-smith-russia-ukraine-comments-chrystia-freeland/. She's the frontrunner to become the NATO Secretary General, which if she has a free hand, almost certainly means I'll die abroad and some of you may die at home lol jfc https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/04/world/europe/nato-next-secretary-general.html. Canada is issuing Bonds for Ukraine at her directive https://globalnews.ca/video/9234664/canadas-finance-minister-responds-to-ukrainian-sovereignty-bonds/. Her sole response to inflation, and indeed "energy, economy, climate" has been to blame Russia https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/freeland-putin-us-1.6613523.

We let the Minister from CSIS (look into it) accumulate power at our peril, and now Canada's strength, such that it is, has been harnessed for her pet project.

I mean at least NATO general secretary is not a real job, as far as I can tell.

# ? Nov 7, 2022 23:50

Gulping Again: Mar 10, 2007

Truga posted:

well would you look at that, it's the same map again
what are the odds

# ? Nov 7, 2022 23:56

Gulping Again: Mar 10, 2007

Frosted Flake posted:

You're all much better at this than I, but I hope this illustrates the point

I know there are ways to combine the historical maps and google maps, keep the POIs or whatever, or failing that, better ways to overlay layers, but - the monuments to Perpetrators are in Galicia, almost exclusively. After 1991 there is a smattering in Kiev, but "for some reason", many more after 2014.

Which shows that "Ukrainian Nationalism" is the project of a very specific subset of the population that has been allowed to seize power again and again, disproportionate to their population or the true history of the Ukraine, which the Ruthenians didn't even share a country with until integrated into the USSR. You could make the same map with areas of the country that are Catholic as opposed to Orthodox, or one with the former borders of the Russian and Austro-Hungarian Empires (which I suppose would be another way to show essentially the same thing).

Whatever hope for a stable and united Ukraine there might have been has been removed by giving our preferred anti-Communist/Russian proxies control over the institutions, facilitating their myth making in English, allowing them to rewrite the national image.

Suppose, because they predated other Polish immigration to Canada by a decade and have a charming little village in Wilno, Ontario, we let the Kashubians dictate our policy there. If Kashubians were considered the "true" Poles, and Canadian diplomacy towards Poland was conducted by our Kashubian Deputy PM, who called the Prime Minister of Poland daily and arranged to have the Kashubian oligarch former President released from prison. If we had facilitated Kashubians returning to Poland after 1989 to write the new constitution and hold prominent positions in the Polish State.

Of course, the Kashubian diaspora was formed because of the opposition to Prussia and then the German Empire, which doesn't have the same domestic utility as anti-communism, so here we are. That's the difference between arriving in 1850 and 1950.

lol

lmao

# ? Nov 7, 2022 23:58

Gulping Again: Mar 10, 2007

Frosted Flake posted:

I was thinking about a good way to explain what happened in terms readily comparable to the English-speaking world and I think I have one.

Canada has an Irish culture totally at odds, as in diametrically opposed, to how it's understood in Ireland and the rest of the English-speaking world. The reason is that Canada all-but banned immigration of Irish Catholics but went out of the way to encourage the immigration of Irish Protestants so that uniquely the vast majority of Irish in (English) Canada are Proddies. This is opposed to the demographics of the two Irelands, past and present, but also contrasts with Australia, who received mostly transported Irish Catholics and the US, which received mostly Irish Catholics fleeing the Great Famine. Even during the Great Famine, when there was a great deal of traffic to Montreal, what Irish Catholics that landed here went to the States as soon as they were able, or stayed in Montreal if they were too poor or sick to travel to the US.

So, what it means to be "Irish" in Canada (the Belfast of the North) is very different than what it means anywhere else, just like what it means to be "Ukrainian" in Canada is very different than what it meant in the majority of Ukraine. We have an Irish culture created by Ulstermen in the image of Ulster, similarly we have allowed Galicians to create a picture of Ukraine in the image of Galicia. Canadian Irish were militant supporters of the Orange Order, the Political activities of the Ukrainian diaspora here are well known. Iirc Canadian support for the UDR/RUC and Crown was much higher than it ever was for the IRA and I only ever heard the IRA referred to as terrorists, in the media and by everyone I knew, growing up in the 90's and 2000's. In the same way that being Irish means to fight for King and Country, the Ukrainian "national struggle" as understood here, means to have fought against the USSR, rather than having been part of it.

Most, and by that it's got to be 90% these days, of Canadians are oblivious to this, because how would they know? We have Irish bars, just like Australia and the US, and how would you know which names are Scots Gaelic instead of Irish or that the Red Hand of Ulster is not the kind of ticky tacky Irish pub decoration found in Ireland? It's totally normal for the Union Jack to be generic pub decoration in Irish pubs and nobody would really think about that or even notice. As far as anyone here is concerned, that's just what Irish culture is, it's uncontroversial. "Irish" dress here is as often as not Lowland Scot, most places have "Scottish and Irish" Stores (so, Scots-Irish), but who is going to know if people wear trews in Ireland? You just go there to get plum pudding to bring to Christmas or to look for a tartan scarf or cable knit sweater, or an outfit for a wedding, and there's not much to it.

Same thing with Ukraine. People see flower crowns and "national costume" and hear the "national story" and that's it. Ukrainian culture is pretty common in Canada, I grew up knowing pierogis as varenyky, and understanding all Ukrainians are Catholic, and that's all there was to it.

So, you know, these things happen. People aren't going to interrogate these assumptions and it lets a lot of stuff go by under the radar.

Lmao Canada really is just an experiment to create the worst version of every form of whitey

Marvel Comics were right all along

# ? Nov 8, 2022 00:00

Seatbelts: Mar 29, 2010

iCe-CuBe. posted:

https://twitter.com/uamemesforces/status/1589647639678971906

Poor dumb tankies. How can you even compare these two wars?

Here is my nuclear hot take:
The states should have annexed Iraq, turned it into an American state, actually rebuild the local government and shipped nonstop soft cultural influence into the region to repair their image (and get that oil or whatever)
America was seen as very cool and alluring culture in the 70's in Iraq I think they could have tapped into some of that energy.

Thats not even my worst take.

# ? Nov 8, 2022 00:02

A Bakers Cousin: Dec 18, 2003; by vyelkin

lol its full of irish protestants are you loving kidding me lamo

# ? Nov 8, 2022 00:02

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Seatbelts posted:

Here is my nuclear hot take:
The states should have annexed Iraq, turned it into an American state, actually rebuild the local government and shipped nonstop soft cultural influence into the region to repair their image (and get that oil or whatever)
America was seen as very cool and alluring culture in the 70's in Iraq I think they could have tapped into some of that energy.

Thats not even my worst take.

Yeah this is the thinking of people that only consume western propaganda. US could make things better, they just chose not to and always will because it's not in their interest to make things better.

# ? Nov 8, 2022 00:06

Gulping Again: Mar 10, 2007

tristeham posted:

the US must denazify Canada

# ? Nov 8, 2022 00:06

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Is hilarious the PR move to present Canada as a better, nicer, more functional version of the US

# ? Nov 8, 2022 00:07

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

Seatbelts posted:

Here is my nuclear hot take:
The states should have annexed Iraq, turned it into an American state, actually rebuild the local government and shipped nonstop soft cultural influence into the region to repair their image (and get that oil or whatever)
America was seen as very cool and alluring culture in the 70's in Iraq I think they could have tapped into some of that energy.

Thats not even my worst take.

That's a good day's work in the bad take factory. Well done.

How is the US rebuilding the Flint water supply coming along, by the way?

# ? Nov 8, 2022 00:07

Seatbelts: Mar 29, 2010

Lostconfused posted:

Yeah this is the thinking of people that only consume western propaganda. US could make things better, they just chose not to and always will because it's not in their interest to make things better.

I mean the US spent 6 trillion on fighting poo poo in the middle east for no reason; that money could have help people instead.

genericnick posted:

That's a good day's work in the bad take factory. Well done.

How is the US rebuilding the Flint water supply coming along, by the way?

In my fantasy America spends money on civil services and infrastructure.

# ? Nov 8, 2022 00:13

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

I like to think about good things happening too.

# ? Nov 8, 2022 00:15

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

A Bakers Cousin posted:

lol its full of irish protestants are you loving kidding me lamo

Toronto, the Belfast of Canada: The Orange Order and the Shaping of Municipal Culture

In late nineteenth-century Toronto, municipal politics were so dominated by the Irish Protestants of the Orange Order that the city was known as the "Belfast of Canada." For almost a century, virtually every mayor of Toronto was an Orangeman and the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne was a civic holiday. Toronto, the Belfast of Canada explores the intolerant origins of today's cosmopolitan city.

Using lodge membership lists, census data, and municipal records, William J. Smyth details the Orange Order's role in creating Toronto's municipal culture of militant Protestantism, loyalism, and monarchism. One of Canada's foremost experts on the Orange Order, Smyth analyses the Orange Order's influence between 1850 and 1950, the city's frequent public displays of sectarian tensions, and its occasional bouts of rioting and mayhem.

Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 00:21 on Nov 8, 2022

# ? Nov 8, 2022 00:19

Weka: May 5, 2019; Can't post for 18 hours!

mags posted:

seems like both sides of this capitalist war are shitlibs throwing words around to affect, unconcerned with historical accuracy, but it doesn't help that Ukraine actually does have nazis all the way up into the higher echelons of government with an explicitly neo-nazi death squad as an official army battalion

This is from a fair way back but I feel obliged to point out to any lurkers or infrequent visitors that Ukraine has a great deal more than one explicitly Nazi unit in it's army.

speng31b posted:

nationalising wartime industries, hmm

"Zaporizhtransformator"

These dudes are apparently the biggest manufacturer of transformers in Europe and one of the 10 biggest in the world, so I guess that's a good thing for Ukraine's ability to repair their grid.

# ? Nov 8, 2022 00:25

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

speng31b posted:

Ukrainians have really been sold a bridge, um, so to speak

quote:
The majority of Ukrainians (88 percent)

What an interesting statistic

# ? Nov 8, 2022 00:28

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# ? May 23, 2024 08:58

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

lmao the other side of my family was Austrian colonial aristocracy in Galicia

they later went to South Africa to work for the English king as mercenaries

lamo

# ? Nov 8, 2022 00:29

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

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