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Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Open Source Idiom posted:

Yeah, I think this speaks to an issue I've been having for several years now; to what end does it serve to talk about issues like social inequality, gender violence, etc. in a purely fictitious universe, like say, the Game of Thrones universe, that wouldn't be better served by talking about those issues in our present reality?

Not that there isn't some obvious worth here, and Andor / Thrones / etc. are obviously further along the continuum of IP Does Issues than "I only understood Auschwitz when Rainbow Sparkle was photishopped into the death camp photoes" (or when Wonder Woman was, loving laffo), but it strikes me as, I dunno, a little varnished. A little bit of a way of helping the audience distance themselves from the issues at play.

There'a something very funny about grown adults are having very serious conversations about the chronological history and politics of Targaryians and the Palpatines with the sort of fascination and eye for real politik that would traditionally be reserved for real world issues. Maybe I'm just -- for want of a better term -- aging out of this kind of discussion, I dunno. I certainly have, and still am, guilty of this thing I'm critiquing. Or perhaps more guilty in my ambivalence, I dunno.

I have watched a lot of Star Wars Andor, but I'm also watching a lot of Babylon Berlin, and the latter strikes me as doing pretty much everything Andor does, but only better. And I think part of that is because it's operating in the real world, and talking about real world political parties, movements and concerns. There's not metaphorical abstraction at play (except when there is; there's still magical realism going on here).

It perhaps the blockbuster trappings are an unfortunate reality of trying to talk about real world issues in a way that appeals to the mass market?

Tony Gilroy actually has an interview where he lavished praise on Babylon and said it was a direct inspiration for the show, so that scans.

About your other point, isn't that like the entire history of art, commenting on politics thru the veil of fiction? A lot more people pay attn to the latter than having a guy on screen just yelling about fascism anyways.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 16:39

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# ? May 26, 2024 16:24

A MIRACLE: Sep 17, 2007; All right. It's Saturday night; I have no date, a two-liter bottle of Shasta and my all-Rush mix-tape... Let's rock.

just now remembering that I watched the show The OA and making myself mad over here

# ? Nov 9, 2022 16:58

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Magic Pus posted:

I think I’d be totally rock solid in that opinion if the Jared Leto part had been played by David Bowie, as originally intended. Talk about a MAJOR downgrade…

Wow so the requirement for the role really was "must be pedo creep"

# ? Nov 9, 2022 17:11

mutantIke: Oct 24, 2022; Born in '04
Certified Zoomer

Thinking about how much of a (chuck McGill voice) Sick Joke (/chuck McGill voice) Netflix is pulling by putting Knives Out 2 in theaters during Thanksgiving. No way I am dragging all 18 aunts and uncles and cousins to this movie theater

# ? Nov 9, 2022 17:38

Black Lighter: Sep 6, 2010; Just keep looking at what we're doing, keep watering and ask yourselves first and know 'Are you watering? And are you fertilizing every day?' So when it's time to pop, it'll pop.

Shageletic posted:

About your other point, isn't that like the entire history of art, commenting on politics thru the veil of fiction? A lot more people pay attn to the latter than having a guy on screen just yelling about fascism anyways.

Yeah, of course that's a huge part of the history of fiction. What hasn't been a part of it until the last couple decades is corporate, IP-driven fantasy franchises pushing almost everything else to the absolute margins. That's a very new development and very lovely if you happen to like stuff that isn't corporate fantasy IP.

Like, I don't say this to dunk on anyone, but I'm genuinely confused as to why people want to read what Open Source Idiom and I are saying as some sort of blanket condemnation of fiction or even just fantasy when I think we've both been pretty clear that the problem is the major studios pushing almost nothing but this stuff and creating a context where even good movies and shows in that mold feel diminished and less interesting. Even if you don't want to get into how capital is using this approach to dry and pulverise film and television culture into pure product, that's as simple as 'There's been way too much of this kind of stuff lately, and not enough of anything else, and even the good stuff to be found in the franchises feels tired and unappealing'.

If it helps to provide an example that isn't Andor or Star Wars at all, here's one: Wakanda Forever's coming out on Friday, and if you'd asked me in 2018 if I'd see the next Black Panther movie in theaters, I'd have laughed because of course I would have. But it's 2022 and between the movies and shows, it's the 14th MCU product to be released in the last two years, so I might not ever watch it. And that's both because there's been so much MCU poo poo that I'd just feel tired watching it; and because the fact that it's Disney's latest attempt to monopolize film and entertainment diminishes any sense of enjoyment I'd get from it even if it was objectively good and well-made. And that's not me rejecting fiction or even fantasy - that's me saying the sheer omnipresence of this kind of corporate fantasy IP slurry and the awareness of the role that it's playing in film and television is wearying, and even good work suffers in that context.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 17:49

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

Shageletic posted:

It's Flash Gordon stuff if we were in an alt-universe where there's been 30 years of Flash Gordon movies and we're currently inundated by the exciting adventures of Flash's grand kids.

There's only so much you can do with that kind of stuff. Flash Gordon was awesome, but it was a one and done. Andor is finally cutting off SW from the decayed remains of nostalgia and making stuff that people who watch TV today would like. In this case a stellar quality series of movies involving heists and prison breaks.

My point is that Star Wars at its best was a mixture of disparate cultural elements, from mythology and masterworks of Japanese cinema to 1930s serials where people run up and down corridors and get into mortal peril
every 20 minutes. Take one part out and you�ve got something more respectable, but blander.

And indeed this has been an issue already, not because Disney�s folks actively took out the silly stuff but because they�re now busy referencing SW itself and their own nostalgia for it in specific. They�re detached from what this was all about, and the high points have generally been when they stop pushing the lore button and remember the material�s non-Star Wars roots. Andor is not about that, it�s using other non-SW material, but why�s it always the fun goofy lowbrow stuff that has to be taken out?

Maxwell Lord fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Nov 9, 2022

# ? Nov 9, 2022 17:50

Megaman's Jockstrap: Jul 16, 2000; What a horrible thread to have a post.

Maxwell Lord posted:

And why�s it always the fun goofy lowbrow stuff that has to be taken out?

It isn't. Obi Wan was Star Wars with extra super doses of goofy lowbrow stuff. I thought it was dreadful.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 17:52

Papercut: Aug 24, 2005

Black Lighter posted:

Yeah, of course that's a huge part of the history of fiction. What hasn't been a part of it until the last couple decades is corporate, IP-driven fantasy franchises pushing almost everything else to the absolute margins. That's a very new development and very lovely if you happen to like stuff that isn't corporate fantasy IP.

Like, I don't say this to dunk on anyone, but I'm genuinely confused as to why people want to read what Open Source Idiom and I are saying as some sort of blanket condemnation of fiction or even just fantasy when I think we've both been pretty clear that the problem is the major studios pushing almost nothing but this stuff and creating a context where even good movies and shows in that mold feel diminished and less interesting. Even if you don't want to get into how capital is using this approach to dry and pulverise film and television culture into pure product, that's as simple as 'There's been way too much of this kind of stuff lately, and not enough of anything else, and even the good stuff to be found in the franchises feels tired and unappealing'.

If it helps to provide an example that isn't Andor or Star Wars at all, here's one: Wakanda Forever's coming out on Friday, and if you'd asked me in 2018 if I'd see the next Black Panther movie in theaters, I'd have laughed because of course I would have. But it's 2022 and between the movies and shows, it's the 14th MCU product to be released in the last two years, so I might not ever watch it. And that's both because there's been so much MCU poo poo that I'd just feel tired watching it; and because the fact that it's Disney's latest attempt to monopolize film and entertainment diminishes any sense of enjoyment I'd get from it even if it was objectively good and well-made. And that's not me rejecting fiction or even fantasy - that's me saying the sheer omnipresence of this kind of corporate fantasy IP slurry and the awareness of the role that it's playing in film and television is wearying, and even good work suffers in that context.

You're the sad guy on the dark side of the bus obsessing about the particulars of global capitalism as it relates to art, and the rest of us are happily on the sunny side of the bus enjoying the shows that are good.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 17:57

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

It isn't. Obi Wan was Star Wars with extra super doses of goofy lowbrow stuff. I thought it was dreadful.

Yeah but that suffered from reverence to The Lore and not just being Ewan doing his Errol Flynn in space thing.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 18:00

Black Lighter: Sep 6, 2010; Just keep looking at what we're doing, keep watering and ask yourselves first and know 'Are you watering? And are you fertilizing every day?' So when it's time to pop, it'll pop.

Papercut posted:

You're the sad guy on the dark side of the bus obsessing about the particulars of global capitalism as it relates to art, and the rest of us are happily on the sunny side of the bus enjoying the shows that are good.

Enjoy your baby food, I guess?

# ? Nov 9, 2022 18:08

Famethrowa: Oct 5, 2012

Black Lighter posted:

Enjoy your baby food, I guess?

lmao

# ? Nov 9, 2022 18:09

graventy: Jul 28, 2006; Fun Shoe

This isn't some death knell of culture.

We are at peak television, the quality and variety of shows available has NEVER been higher than now. But sure let's spend multiple pages whinging on about a show you have already decided not to watch.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 18:15

Tiny Timbs: Sep 6, 2008

Black Lighter posted:

Enjoy your baby food, I guess?

lol dude

# ? Nov 9, 2022 18:21

BonoMan: Feb 20, 2002; Jade Ear Joe

Black Lighter posted:

Enjoy your baby food, I guess?

Peak Fedora.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 18:22

Black Lighter: Sep 6, 2010; Just keep looking at what we're doing, keep watering and ask yourselves first and know 'Are you watering? And are you fertilizing every day?' So when it's time to pop, it'll pop.

Tiny Timbs posted:

lol dude

Not a dude, but whatever

# ? Nov 9, 2022 18:24

Martman: Nov 20, 2006

Black Lighter posted:

Enjoy your baby food, I guess?

You can post like this but you have to commit to the fact that you are trying to dunk on everyone. When you keep going back and being like "gosh why is everyone so mad about my harmless points" it makes you look like a weasely little weirdo

Like, you have "no particular issue" with Andor itself, no criticisms about its quality etc. (because you haven't watched it and never will), but also will call it baby food to get in a burn on someone. That is very dishonest and lovely posting

Martman fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Nov 9, 2022

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:00

A MIRACLE: Sep 17, 2007; All right. It's Saturday night; I have no date, a two-liter bottle of Shasta and my all-Rush mix-tape... Let's rock.

Now I�m gonna fall asleep watching andor even harder

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:06

Martman: Nov 20, 2006

Imagine taking 1000 words to write "I do not feel like watching Andor."

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:13

Inspector Hound: Jul 14, 2003

precision posted:

Oh my God people stop using Twitter lol

It's where all the loving articles are

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:15

Jerkface: May 21, 2001; HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE DEAD, MOTHERFUCKER?

The latest episode of Andor is a triumph and features 2 blisteringly hot monologues. Watch Andor.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:17

Wolfsheim: Dec 23, 2003; "Ah," Ratz had said, at last, "the artiste."

precision posted:

Oh my God people stop using Twitter lol

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:18

Black Lighter: Sep 6, 2010; Just keep looking at what we're doing, keep watering and ask yourselves first and know 'Are you watering? And are you fertilizing every day?' So when it's time to pop, it'll pop.

Martman posted:

You can post like this but you have to commit to the fact that you are trying to dunk on everyone. When you keep going back and being like "gosh why is everyone so mad about my harmless points" it makes you look like a weasely little weirdo

Like, you have "no particular issue" with Andor itself, no criticisms about its quality etc. (because you haven't watched it and never will), but also will call it baby food to get in a burn on someone. That is very dishonest and lovely posting

Honestly, gently caress this and gently caress y'all. I've been engaging in good faith while ppl freaked out that a girl said something bad about Star Wars on the internet, but once I say something back, I'm being disingenuous? FOH with that. Sorry I criticized everybody's favorite piece of children's media, but please grow up and order something off the adult menu.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:30

Megaman's Jockstrap: Jul 16, 2000; What a horrible thread to have a post.

Black Lighter posted:

Honestly, gently caress this and gently caress y'all. I've been engaging in good faith while ppl freaked out that a girl said something bad about Star Wars on the internet,

Nobody knew you were a girl. We all assumed you were a pretentious neckbeard male in their mid-20s wearing a fedora. Don't do poo poo like this. Your chilly reception has nothing to do with your gender, it's all based on the spew you've been posting.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:31

Martman: Nov 20, 2006

Black Lighter posted:

Honestly, gently caress this and gently caress y'all. I've been engaging in good faith while ppl freaked out that a girl said something bad about Star Wars on the internet, but once I say something back, I'm being disingenuous? FOH with that. Sorry I criticized everybody's favorite piece of children's media, but please grow up and order something off the adult menu.

It's really impressive to be like "oh btw I'm a girl so don't call me dude :smug:

" and 10 seconds later pivot to arguing that you being a girl is the real reason we were mad at you. No one gives a gently caress lol

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:38

Wolfsheim: Dec 23, 2003; "Ah," Ratz had said, at last, "the artiste."

Lol I mean in a broad sense I agree that it would be good if Disney didn't own everything and independent media made for adults was more profitable so they made more of it but going "whoa whoa did you know this TV show was made by a corporation??" is completely empty criticism

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:40

The Modern Leper: Dec 25, 2008; You must be a masochist

Black Lighter posted:

Honestly, gently caress this and gently caress y'all. I've been engaging in good faith while ppl freaked out that a girl said something bad about Star Wars on the internet, but once I say something back, I'm being disingenuous? FOH with that. Sorry I criticized everybody's favorite piece of children's media, but please grow up and order something off the adult menu.

Nice meltdown

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:42

Nihonniboku: Aug 11, 2004; YOU CAN FLY!!!

Jerkface posted:

The latest episode of Andor is a triumph and features 2 blisteringly hot monologues. Watch Andor.

Yeah, I haven't been super crazy about Andor so far, I've found it too slow with little too reward for the most part. But I just watched the latest episode on my lunch break, and I genuinely thought it was thrilling, and was pumping my fists in excitement in a few spots.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:44

Wolfsheim: Dec 23, 2003; "Ah," Ratz had said, at last, "the artiste."

Also the true pedant would pull an "I dont even watch television" instead of "I only watch mature adult television" like you're just totally loving it up here

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:45

Martman: Nov 20, 2006

Grow up and order off the adult menu, y'all. *scrolls through Netflix to the "Adult" tab*

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:49

Papercut: Aug 24, 2005

Lol my one complaint about Andor was that it ended on a total cliffhanger, I have only now discovered that the season wasn't over

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:53

Nihonniboku: Aug 11, 2004; YOU CAN FLY!!!

Papercut posted:

Lol my one complaint about Andor was that it ended on a total cliffhanger, I have only now discovered that the season wasn't over

Yup! I thought today was the finale today, until I saw a headline that said it's not. But knowing that they've already filmed season 2, I would have been fine with this being the finale actually, even ending on a bit of a cliffhanger. 2 more episodes apparently, should take us right through Thanksgiving.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 19:57

CelticPredator: Oct 11, 2013; 🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

Andor was worth it for that meltdown lmao

# ? Nov 9, 2022 20:13

Jerkface: May 21, 2001; HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE DEAD, MOTHERFUCKER?

Nihonniboku posted:

Yup! I thought today was the finale today, until I saw a headline that said it's not. But knowing that they've already filmed season 2, I would have been fine with this being the finale actually, even ending on a bit of a cliffhanger. 2 more episodes apparently, should take us right through Thanksgiving.

Just FYI season 2 will begin filming Nov 21, it hasn't been filmed yet. But it was greenlit, etc and is the actual end of the series with everything all planned out. Should be a good ride given S1's quality.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 20:16

Nihonniboku: Aug 11, 2004; YOU CAN FLY!!!

Huh! I had thought I had read that they filmed them back to back, which is why filming seemed to take so long. Guess I was wrong.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 20:34

Jerkface: May 21, 2001; HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE DEAD, MOTHERFUCKER?

Nihonniboku posted:

Huh! I had thought I had read that they filmed them back to back, which is why filming seemed to take so long. Guess I was wrong.

It may have been part of the original conception of the show being 5 seasons with the idea of filming the seasons back to back but then eventually collapsing that into 2 12 episode seasons. It is much longer than the other live action shows.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 20:40

Tainen: Jan 23, 2004

A MIRACLE posted:

just now remembering that I watched the show The OA and making myself mad over here

The OA was geat especially the second season

# ? Nov 9, 2022 20:42

Fartington Butts: Jan 21, 2007

Tainen posted:

The OA was geat especially the second season

And seemed like it was going in interesting places for the 3rd, but it got Netflix�d.

# ? Nov 9, 2022 20:51

Deadite: Aug 30, 2003; A fat guy, a watermelon, and a stack of magazines?
Family.

Is there anything on Apple TV I should check out? I have a few months free but it doesn't look like there's a ton of content.

I watched Severance (which was great) and I just started For All Mankind

# ? Nov 9, 2022 20:54

Nihonniboku: Aug 11, 2004; YOU CAN FLY!!!

Deadite posted:

Is there anything on Apple TV I should check out? I have a few months free but it doesn't look like there's a ton of content.

I watched Severance (which was great) and I just started For All Mankind

For All Mankind is fantastic.
The Morning Show is good if you like the actors, but the themes and messaging are a little heavy handed.
See has great worldbuilding, but is otherwise kind of stupid.
Servant is a fun Shyamalan thriller at first, but just begins treading water and nothing really happens after a while
Foundation is incredibly ambitious, but only the story with the emperor is actually interesting
Mythic Quest is likable, but doesn't really have many laugh out loud moments. The best episodes are the serious dramatic ones.
Ted Lasso season 1 deserves all the hype it got. Season 2 not so much.
Bad Sisters is Sharon Horgan's followup to Catastrophe about a group of sisters who plot to murder their rear end in a top hat brother-in-law. Not as funny as Catastrophe
Central Park is the exact same show as Bob's Burgers and The Great North, but with more music, if those are your jam.
Watch the Sound with Mark Ronson is a fascinating docuseries about music production.

Edit: Prehistoric Planet is a nature documentary with CG dinosaurs from the creators of Planet Earth

# ? Nov 9, 2022 21:10

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# ? May 26, 2024 16:24

precision: May 7, 2006; by VideoGames

Black Lighter posted:

Andor just seems completely interchangeable with the Star Wars product that preceded it and the Star Wars product that'll follow it. Because once you get past the particulars, it pretty much is

Black Lighter posted:

I haven't watched it

# ? Nov 9, 2022 21:34

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