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i am a moron posted:Someone literally asked ‘is anyone saying this’ Sorry that I was unclear. I meant "is anyone saying that this behavior, if true, is in any way acceptable?"
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Nov 10, 2022 01:31
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christmas boots posted:Sorry that I was unclear. I meant "is anyone saying that this behavior, if true, is in any way acceptable?" Seems like people are certainly ready to excuse it, might just be my Inexplicable Feminist Agenda flaring up
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Nov 10, 2022 01:32
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Let's say he has issues with women that seemed to intimately inform that part of the game and a lot of other things that made it really feel genuine. Like really hit a lot of people where they live. Just like the poster 'dead gay comedy forums' posted also about laughing their rear end off at the communist magazine bit, having first hand experience with something similar. What does that really have to do with having yours and others labor stolen and having to fight for your poo poo in court?
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Nov 10, 2022 01:34
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i am a moron posted:Seems like people are certainly ready to excuse it, might just be my Inexplicable Feminist Agenda flaring up Ah, you’re just trying to take potshots then
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Nov 10, 2022 01:36
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the source that is not Estonian Fraudman (Sam, Estonian Fraudman here) just said "it's not black and white" but they still respect Kurvitz and new people for some reason didn't want to say anything for reasons there is no direct allegation that is not coming from the criminal I think saying "yeah I could see Kurvitz being an rear end in a top hat with issues he has to work through" is as far as you can go without knowing something more
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Nov 10, 2022 01:36
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:the source that is not Estonian Fraudman (Sam, Estonian Fraudman here) just said "it's not black and white" but they still respect Kurvitz and new people for some reason didn't want to say anything for reasons As the best loving detective ever I have serious questions for this CRIMINAL.
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Nov 10, 2022 01:38
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i am a moron posted:Yea I’m sure ZAUM is an iron fortress and it’s impossible to find an employee and ask them questions. They probably have a seven foot Estonian supremacist guarding the front door and there’s no way whoever wrote this article has the physical instrumentation necessary to get in and ask questions "an anonymous source", emphasis on the singular, that favors the strongest party in this issue. is that good journalism, forums poster i am a moron imho, why not check with more people? there's a public roster and there are the credits of the game, that's plenty of people to reach out that have dealt with them directly
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Nov 10, 2022 01:40
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dead gay comedy forums posted:"an anonymous source", emphasis on the singular, that favors the strongest party in this issue. is that good journalism, forums poster i am a moron People not talking about this stuff on the record and being anonymously sourced is extremely normal in this situation, yes. Are you being facetious?
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Nov 10, 2022 01:49
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i am a moron posted:People not talking about this stuff on the record and being anonymously sourced is extremely normal in this situation, yes. Are you being facetious? People are scared of the criminal (the fraudster)
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Nov 10, 2022 01:54
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i am a moron posted:People not talking about this stuff on the record and being anonymously sourced is extremely normal in this situation, yes. Are you being facetious? This is also a situation where there are people in the company who directly benefit from spinning a narrative that paints these people in a bad light, so an anonymous source might be a pretty lovely one. I think that wanting to hear from more than one anonymous source is pretty reasonable. The author already appears to be uncritically repeating what this named source with an incredibly obvious bias is saying, so who knows what's going on with the anonymous one.
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Nov 10, 2022 01:58
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Folks it's time to hashtag cancelkurvitz
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Nov 10, 2022 02:01
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i am a moron posted:People not talking about this stuff on the record and being anonymously sourced is extremely normal in this situation, yes. Are you being facetious? deffo I am. how do you feel the bush era press corps listening about wmds there's direct, public evidence to the contrary of what that source has been saying, such as Luiga, Rostov and Hindpere (which have been with them since the beginning) standing for Kurvitz, without rejecting creative animosity, nor disparaging any other team members. Why they weren't asked for commentary?
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Nov 10, 2022 02:09
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i am a moron posted:People not talking about this stuff on the record and being anonymously sourced is extremely normal in this situation, yes. Are you being facetious? yup i definitely need to anonymously agree with my employer. they wouldn't like it if they found out that i was backing them up online. this is the same as whistleblowing
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Nov 10, 2022 02:10
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dead gay comedy forums posted:deffo I am. how do you feel the bush era press corps listening about wmds Rhetoric [Medium: Passed] - Because anything they say would counter the narrative you are trying to build. Use only what is useful to the case you want to make, discard all else.
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Nov 10, 2022 02:13
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MariusLecter posted:Rhetoric [Medium: Passed] - Drama [Easy: Failed] Well...what's "fraud" really?
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Nov 10, 2022 02:29
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So there are two narratives, both of which usually turn out to be true, neither of which contradicts the other, and which often go hand in hand and actively reinforce themselves. 1. A bunch of rich scumbags who already did A Fraud turned around and did A Fraud, loving a bunch of people out of their blood-and-sweat toil in a shameless bid for money. 2. A ~creative auteur~ who wrote a compelling misogynistic shitbag who hurt everyone around him turned out to be a misogynistic shitbag who hurt everyone around him. The fact that the waters are muddied intrinsically benefits the people from narrative 1, who also have the resources and incentive to fabricate, overstate, or create the conditions for narrative 2. Narrative 2 has obvious holes--the other people who were fired or "left the company", the timeline of the game's production and release, probably other poo poo--but has the benefit of, historically, being a bad thing to bet against. Flat-out picking a side means doubting the financial malfeasance of known financial malfeasants, which is lol, or doubting allegations of sexual misconduct, which is morally kinda lovely and generally long odds. Cutting the baby in half means inherently privileging one side anyways, being wrong twice on the chance you'll be right once, drawing a moral equivalence which is objectively cowardly and probably contemptible, and flattening the conflict into some bullshit "both sides are wrong" equivocation. In the absence of hard damning facts, which to my knowledge aren't actually out there, we're working on hearsay ranging from "bullshit" to "maybe true" to "highly suggestive but not concrete". The correct thing to do is probably withhold speculation and judgment until we have something meaningful to engage with. The fun thing to do, which I therefore endorse, is to instead dice and grind aforesaid baby, assuming the worst possible behavior and motivations of literally everyone involved, however tangentially, and baselessly attacking their character with unholy fervor. In either case: gently caress everybody, including and especially you, but definitely not me. Do As Thou Wilt.
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Nov 10, 2022 02:38
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I don't care about the company and i love the game and my opinion actually won't affect a single thing. I hope they get their IP and the company burns.
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Nov 10, 2022 02:48
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Was Helen also fired for "belittling women"?
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Nov 10, 2022 03:02
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Fruits of the sea posted:It’s ok to just not know where things stand
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Nov 10, 2022 03:07
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This is obviously pure speculation based on my own interpretation of the game but... I find it hard to believe that one of the creative leads behind DE, a game which has very progressive politics on all fronts, gender included, is actively misogynist. Like, the game is very critical towards misogyny. Playing as a fascist basically tells you you're blaming all your personal issues on women because of your failed relationship with one. I can see the argument that maybe Harry's misogynist side (if he's played that way) was written from experience, but if so, it still very much appears to be the experience of someone who has done a lot of genuine self-reflection, realised the error of their ways, and become a better person. The whole game is about letting go of the past and becoming a better person. I just can't see Kurvitz still being a raging misogynist, if indeed he ever was.
Wafflecopper fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Nov 10, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 03:24
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POWELL CURES KIDS posted:So there are two narratives, both of which usually turn out to be true, neither of which contradicts the other, and which often go hand in hand and actively reinforce themselves. Where are the accusations of sexual misconduct? In "gamesindustry.biz" the allegations of misogyny are that there was "misconduct in interacting with other colleagues that includes verbal abuse and gender discrimination", which doesn't actually include any sexual misconduct.
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Nov 10, 2022 03:33
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Was Helen also fired for "belittling women"? It's hardly implausible, given the host of incentives, that she might have enabled such behavior, or actively quashed and punished attempts to report it. The personal, professional, and creative stakes would in fact have rewarded her for allowing the perverse actions of her co-creator, and even heightened her perceived need to conceal it. We have a point of reference within the work itself, the toxic "relationship" between Ruby and Klaasje providing an obvious example. Flattening the possibilities of the situation into identity politics is a misogynistic act on its own, and subscribes to the same social frameworks which created these kinds of conditions to begin with. Now, is any of that remotely likely to be the case, particularly given the competing interests at play? Pfffhahahahaha, gently caress no, Jesus Christ. Read that out loud and tell me you aren't tasting stupid. But there's a reason the Moralintern is so obviously modeled on the real world powers-to-be. Injecting doubt into the "storytelling" of what actually happened is an easy, effective way to negate the rhetoric of justice, and recenter the conflict into the arena where bloodsuckers are most comfortable: legal fuckery, institutional paralysis, and the default, indefinite maintenance of the status quo. "Being right" is a bourgeois construct, one which must be purged from your being, through violence if possible. Embrace the Hell of the Real, and die, for the rest of your life, shrieking in unheard, unmitigated misery.
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Nov 10, 2022 04:14
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MariusLecter posted:Let's say he has issues with women that seemed to intimately inform that part of the game and a lot of other things that made it really feel genuine. Like really hit a lot of people where they live. Just like the poster 'dead gay comedy forums' posted also about laughing their rear end off at the communist magazine bit, having first hand experience with something similar. Wafflecopper posted:This is obviously pure speculation based on my own interpretation of the game but... I find it hard to believe that one of the creative leads behind DE, a game which has very progressive politics on all fronts, gender included, is actively misogynist. Like, the game is very critical towards misogyny. Playing as a fascist basically tells you you're blaming all your personal issues on women because of your failed relationship with one. I can see the argument that maybe Harry's misogynist side (if he's played that way) was written from experience, but if so, it still very much appears to be the experience of someone who has done a lot of genuine self-reflection, realised the error of their ways, and become a better person. The whole game is about letting go of the past and becoming a better person. I just can't see Kurvitz still being a raging misogynist, if indeed he ever was. That's reading a lot into the situation based on a character in a game though. I would not be comfortable arguing that that's particularly likely based just on the game and some hearsay. But I think that's the narrative people are wondering about. The game is good and progressive and self reflective. Doesn't necessarily mean the author is able to live up to all that all the time. POWELL CURES KIDS posted:The correct thing to do is probably withhold speculation and judgment until we have something meaningful to engage with. The fun thing to do, which I therefore endorse, is to instead dice and grind aforesaid baby, assuming the worst possible behavior and motivations of literally everyone involved, however tangentially, and baselessly attacking their character with unholy fervor. In either case: gently caress everybody, including and especially you, but definitely not me. Fortunately whatever the heck we say probably isn't going to matter in any way to anyone.
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Nov 10, 2022 04:19
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this whole thing is a CIA op imo
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Nov 10, 2022 04:22
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Capital jangling a key labeled “woman belittler” in front of people’s faces.
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Nov 10, 2022 04:37
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Estonian article and translation, found on Reddit: https://ekspress.delfi.ee/artikkel/...i-tegijad-tulli https://pastebin.com/CKKZZafT
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Nov 10, 2022 04:51
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e-dt posted:Where are the accusations of sexual misconduct? In "gamesindustry.biz" the allegations of misogyny are that there was "misconduct in interacting with other colleagues that includes verbal abuse and gender discrimination", which doesn't actually include any sexual misconduct.  I mean, if I have a point here--which I do, though I'm not sure it's necessarily useful--it's that the rollout of information, which seems primarily created and controlled by "the company", is designed to shut down the (compelling but thus far unsubstantiated) arguments that there's been some kind of financial malfeasance. And it's a good tactic, because all they have to do to freeze out Kurvitz/Rostov/Hindpere et al. and keep things as they are is create a remotely plausible counter-narrative, then stall until the latter inevitably run out of resources. And, based on this admittedly kinda weird post by one of the dudes behind the original creative group, until they run out of the emotional and psychological energy to keep going, and either fall to infighting or give up. Unless there's something legally concrete--and Kurvitz and the others seem to think there is, though they're going up against people that are literal professionals at loving around on that front--all we have is innuendo and implication, which isn't enough. I've tried to make it clear that I'm against the money ghouls who have cheated these people out of a world they've been creating since their teens, but the narrative that's been formed means pushing back against the takeover requires, on some level, minimizing allegations of (at bottom, though you know they're gonna escalate) "gender discrimination", which I'm not personally enthusiastic about doing. What's all this got to do with IP theft? Not much...except it's gonna suck some of the fire out from the little guys in the fight, and it's gonna make discussions like the one we're having go in kinda lovely directions. So I guess, at bedrock, I'm really just admiring the craftsmanship of the evil here. POWELL CURES KIDS fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Nov 18, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 05:05
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Wafflecopper posted:This is obviously pure speculation based on my own interpretation of the game but... I find it hard to believe that one of the creative leads behind DE, a game which has very progressive politics on all fronts, gender included, is actively misogynist. Like, the game is very critical towards misogyny. Playing as a fascist basically tells you you're blaming all your personal issues on women because of your failed relationship with one. I can see the argument that maybe Harry's misogynist side (if he's played that way) was written from experience, but if so, it still very much appears to be the experience of someone who has done a lot of genuine self-reflection, realised the error of their ways, and become a better person. The whole game is about letting go of the past and becoming a better person. I just can't see Kurvitz still being a raging misogynist, if indeed he ever was. My man, no comment on if it's true because both narratives currently lack specific allegations, much less evidence, but people say the Right Progressive Things all the time and turn out to be enormous pieces of poo poo who don't live it.
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Nov 10, 2022 08:41
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Is this the part of the thread where we find out the posters who believe Evrart is very bad will back the capitalist assholes over the artist creators of this game? Because lol.
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Nov 10, 2022 09:13
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Orange Devil posted:Is this the part of the thread where we find out the posters who believe Evrart is very bad will back the capitalist assholes over the artist creators of this game? Has been for the last couple of pages
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Nov 10, 2022 11:19
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Alchenar posted:My man, no comment on if it's true because both narratives currently lack specific allegations, much less evidence, but people say the Right Progressive Things all the time and turn out to be enormous pieces of poo poo who don't live it. Kurvitzs claims are extremely specific: using company funds for personal use. And the person he accusers has a history of similar crimes proved in court of law.
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Nov 10, 2022 13:26
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Orange Devil posted:Is this the part of the thread where we find out the posters who believe Evrart is very bad will back the capitalist assholes over the artist creators of this game? It's just too perfect. Believing an actual wealthy criminal convicted of lying. You couldn't make this poo poo up.
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Nov 10, 2022 13:30
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Believe capitalists.
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Nov 10, 2022 14:18
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POWELL CURES KIDS posted:I've tried to make it clear that I'm against the money ghouls who have cheated these people out of a world they've been creating since their teens, but the narrative that's been formed means pushing back against the takeover requires, on some level, minimizing allegations of (at bottom, though you know they're gonna escalate) "gender discrimination", which I'm not personally enthusiastic about doing. Fr'instance, and yo I'm sorry to use your post as an example but I'm trying to post on the internet over here: Excuse me?
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Nov 10, 2022 14:53
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"Women are bourgeois." Kurvitz irl probably. Eiba posted:That's reading a lot into the situation based on a character in a game though. I would not be comfortable arguing that that's particularly likely based just on the game and some hearsay. But I think that's the narrative people are wondering about. The game is good and progressive and self reflective. Doesn't necessarily mean the author is able to live up to all that all the time It's an expression of pain, the video game.
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Nov 10, 2022 15:21
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I wrote a pretty lengthy and very mad post about the ways that game studios force people to work 400 hours a month for months on end, refuse to give them leave, deny them any kind of mental health support except for huge amounts of free alcohol in the studio, and then kick them out the door as 'toxic' when they scream at someone (because if you do this to some people, they will start screaming). This has not happened to me, but I have definitely seen it happen to people who were toxic, but were also at the end of several years of institutionalised psychological torture. But if "how do we apportion moral responsibility to broken people an insanely hosed up human-corrosive environment being manipulated by ghouls? I don't know and find the issue really difficult" is going to be read as 'minimizing allegations of gender discrimination' then posting about it is a waste of time. Exploring why things happen isn't minimizing or excusing them. It's the only way we can make them better. I will go ahead with my stupid dumb long post if it seems like a good idea after sitting on it for a while.
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Nov 10, 2022 16:04
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I think this was mentioned in passing earlier but here's Mick Gordon talking about his experiences with id software: https://medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-regarding-doom-eternal-5f98266b27ce For the sake of making the company look good, a thoroughly competent professional was thrown under the bus and wasn't even properly paid by his work. quote:Using NDAs, settlements and gag orders to silence truths is an appalling tactic used by people in high positions of power fearful of accountability. I am choosing to speak out because the alternative was to accept that tactic as okay.
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Nov 10, 2022 17:32
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Sardonik posted:Evrart could at least have used his special skill and helped them find guns. I'm fairly certain the hardy boys had guns, it's just sort of poorly demonstrated in game. The whole tribunal post Harry getting shot is sort of confusingly laid out. Also the death squad did at least three murders in Martinaise pre-tribunal as indicated by the kill markings on that one dudes gun and it's entirely unclear whether they were before or after they went rogue. Vagabong fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Nov 10, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 18:46
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Vagabong posted:I'm fairly certain the hardy boys had guns, it's just sort of poorly demonstrated in game. The whole tribunal post Harry getting shot is sort of confusingly laid out. the old guy at least has a gun, because one of the failure states is him shooting you.
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Nov 10, 2022 18:53
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Roobanguy posted:the old guy at least has a gun, because one of the failure states is him shooting you. I extremely need to know if it's intentional or if it's blue on blue.
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Nov 10, 2022 19:12
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