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Not really? The back half of the show is already a bit of a confused mess, condensing it down into a single film isn't going to help remedy that. It's fine, I guess if you're getting less time for Nina being the dumbest person alive.
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Nov 10, 2022 05:44
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Stairmaster posted:they put the 0083 movie on youtube should i rec it to people no
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Nov 10, 2022 05:45
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Stairmaster posted:they put the 0083 movie on youtube should i rec it to people Friends don't let friends watch Stardust Memory. Just listen to the OPs. Does the movie even have either of those?
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Nov 10, 2022 06:40
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Yes but tell them to fast forward when Cima isn't on screen.
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Nov 10, 2022 08:51
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Stairmaster posted:they put the 0083 movie on youtube should i rec it to people The animation and MS designs in 0083 are very good.
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Nov 10, 2022 08:54
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0083 is merely ok but has some stellar animation that makes it worth a look, imo I would not recommend the movie over the series though
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Nov 10, 2022 15:04
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Stardust Memory is perfectly fine until the last 2-3 episodes imo.
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Nov 10, 2022 15:35
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Neo_Crimson posted:Stardust Memory is perfectly fine until the last 2-3 episodes imo. Even Kou going awol to build a war crimes machine?
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Nov 10, 2022 15:39
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That’s a character moment. Showing his character is an absolute loving dope.
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Nov 10, 2022 15:51
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Arc Hammer posted:Even Kou going awol to build a war crimes machine? Let's be honest that whole sequence of events is absolutely hilarious. Don't watch the movie though, it has some of the weirdest editing decisions one could possible make for a compilation film.
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Nov 10, 2022 15:52
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0083 is gorgeous and truly expresses the pure Gundam sentiment of "conflict is dumb and pushed by absolute idiots for terrible reasons". It is thematically on point, even if it has some of the worst protagonists and antagonists around. Thankfully its p short and it has one of the greatest OP in Gundam history. 0083 rocks. Just ignore Anaheim memory holing the tech they present in it since it was produced after Zeta.
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Nov 10, 2022 17:14
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DamnGlitch posted:That’s a character moment. Showing his character is an absolute loving dope. I don't think I like any of 0083's main characters. I know people rag on Nina, though a lot of internet nerd rage is completely misplaced horseshit about her being complicit in a colony drop when she literally says that the drop is unstoppable now the second she walks into the control room and only wants Gato to change the target to not be Jaburo, but Kou, Gato and even secondary characters like Monsha and Delaz are also kind of poo poo. Not "they have a personality I don't like" though that too, so much as "I don't think this character is well conceived and/or constructed given the story they're in". Kou is a mobile suit nerd, but the only times it ever comes up after the first episode is for really stupid poo poo that makes his character look really juvenile despite ostensibly being one of the oldest protagonists in the franchise. The two instances I remember being (1) Kou deciding he could write out formulas that made the GP-01 usable in space even after the professional mobile suit designer Nina has told him that he's wrong several times, which in a roundabout way leads to her suggesting that maybe Monsha is the better pilot because Kou is too immature since she wanted to protect Kou by preventing him going into battle or something if I recall and then Kou going out in the GP-01 after she suggests using a GM since it's actually set up for space use to spite Nina and getting the GP-01 heavily damaged. After which he suffers literally no repurcussions beyond feeling guilty. No-one says a word sideways to him about it, he doesn't get thrown in the brig, no-one dresses him down etc. He just mopes for a bit. Amuro gets a lot of stick from some fans for getting away with poo poo on the White Base, but the one time Kou faces real repurcussions for his actions in the epilogue, he also gets let off quickly and it's basically brushed aside to give what I presume is meant to be a happy ending. (2) Kou decides to help Kelly complete the Val Varo after realizing Kelly was a former Zeon officer who wanted to fight with the Delaz forces, and knowing that he'd have to face Kelly in combat in the future. Then, despite having known all this before hand, he still acts shocked when he has to face Kelly and pleads with him to turn away because his girlfriend is waiting for him etc. Gato is a holier than thou zealous dog with no introspection about what he's doing despite the fact he's trying to re-start a war that finished several years previously by committing a huge war crime. Only, no-one writing it seemed to realize this, so it's presented completely straight, as if he's a good, noble man who's just tragically involved with a flawed system or something. Gato and Delaz are also zealots for a Gihren that didn't even exist previous to 0083 itself. They act like Gihren and/or Zeon were concerned with the plight of Spacenoids as a whole, despite the fact that Gihren not only never spoke about anyone other than Side 3 in the original show, but started the war by slaughtering the citizens of multiple other Sides according to basically every pre-existing source on the matter (setting notes, the novelizations, multiple data books over the previous decade that detailed the start of the war etc). The writing completely unironically romanticized a character that is meant to be seen as a vile rear end in a top hat, and I loving hate it. Not only that, but because Delaz and Gato are both zealously dedicated to the cause they don't even feel notably different from each other as characters. They might as well be the one character for all the difference it makes. Monsha is loathesome too, only I'm pretty sure the writers intended him to be be a character who starts out as awful but the audience's opinion on shifts a bit on by the end after he has a moment of revelation or something, with Monsha's moment I think being intended to be South Burning's death. Monsha starts working a bit more with Keith in battle after that, and stops being so antagonistic to Kou, but he never actually has a moment where he realizes what a shithead he's been. He not only never apologizes for constantly making GBS threads up Kou's life and ultimately endangering the crew of the ship at times with his "antics" where he hosed with the GP-01's landing gear and forced it to come in hot which could have killed others, but continues acting like a douche afterwards, torturing Zeon prisoners. South Burning is generally well liked, but South Burning also put up with all that poo poo with no complaint. He, Keith and Mora are inoffensive, but I don't recall actuall liking anything about them either. tsob fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Nov 10, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 17:36
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I do wonder how much of an impact 0083 had on the "Zeon did nothing wrong" crowd of the Gundam fandom given how up Gihren's rear end the Delaz fleet is with basically zero counterpoint or visual language emphasizing this is a bad thing. Like Gato's final run to break through the Federation Fleet and retreat to Axis is presented wholeheartedly by the show as this noble yet doomed sacrifice, but all I can see is a blind attack dog getting a whole bunch of people killed for a stupid cause. I don't think the show wants me to feel that, however. The back half of 08th MS Team has a lot of problems and it does devolve into "both sides are bad" more than I'd like but it still maintains the "but Zeon is worse for reasons that should be obvious" side of Gundam. 0083 basically ditches that angle when it decides it wants to be a Titans origin story and Zeon's involvement is altered into a bunch of noble lost cause heroes fighting a doomed operation while the evil Titans take over and Axis abandons them like scumbag governments ditching their soldiers always do. I'm sorry but the Delaz Fleet was full of fuckheads and they don't get the same sympathy as the conscripts from Time Be Still. Delaz kept up the fight out of insane loyalty to space hitler they're not innocents. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Nov 10, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 17:45
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It's also notable that Gato and Delaz immediately abandoned A Baoa Qu and the war as a whole the second they realized Gihren was dead, because it meant that traitorous poo poo Kycilia was in charge and they'd never work under her; as if she was in some way worse than Gihren  The way they speak about him you'd swear he was a saint who had been cut down before his time or something, and because no-one ever contradicts either of them on it at all, it also comes off as the show's own view on the matter.It kind of feels like maybe they should have been Deikun loyalists rather than Gihren loyalists to some degree, because Deikun did actually care about all the Sides and while it'd still be weird for them to only realize that the Zabis were evil assholes at A Baoa Qu, doing so would give some reason for them to abandon it that paints them in a different light since then they'd have shown some degree of loyalty (the thing the writers seems to loving love); especially if they attacked other Zeon units on their way. Or at least mentioned that they wouldn't on principle, because they wouldn't attack fellow soldiers still under a delusion of Zeon's purpose or what have you. Their actions re-starting the war could then be presented as a tragic misunderstanding of Deikun's ideals. The fact it's Gihren of all people though is awful, because he's still probably one of the most vile, reprehensible villains in a near 50 year old franchise with over a dozen TV shows and also has probably the largest body count at his feet too. tsob fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Nov 10, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 17:49
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I wouldn’t say 0083 feels Zeon Did Nothing Wrong, necessarily, but it absolutely feels you can’t hold the zeon characters responsible for the actions of Zeon as a state (even though they continue to declare loyalty far past the point they morally should have stopped) and also that LOYALTY AND HONOR are praiseworthy no matter what that loyalty is in service to.
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Nov 10, 2022 17:53
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tsob posted:It's also notable that Gato and Delaz immediately abandoned A Baoa Qu and the war as a whole the second they realized Gihren was dead, because it meant that traitorous poo poo Kycilia was in charge and they'd never work under her; as if she was in some way worse than Gihren Seems easier to just have them be loyal to Dozle. His whole thing was being a great leader to his men, and the fleet are all hardened soldiers. It's like the cliche of a Roman general who, while out on campaign, earns the undying loyalty of his men, so they follow him and not their actual Emperor. I don't think anybody except Char really likes or cares about Zeon Deikun. The Zabis are more synonymous with Zeon it seems to me.
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Nov 10, 2022 18:29
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All of this is to say that 0083 Rebellion should be adapted because outside of Nina being categorically even worse than in the OVA, it really adds a lot of depth to the characters and builds in a lot of those moments that are missing to not make it feel as stupid and tone deaf.
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Nov 10, 2022 18:36
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The Notorious ZSB posted:All of this is to say that 0083 Rebellion should be adapted because outside of Nina being categorically even worse than in the OVA, it really adds a lot of depth to the characters and builds in a lot of those moments that are missing to not make it feel as stupid and tone deaf. I'd say that 0083 should be chucked in a bin and never mentioned or thought about again, personally. A lot is made of it's production values, such as the animation and music but when they're holding up a dogshit story with characters who I actively dislike I honestly don't see why I should care. I don't even think most of 0083's action has good or interesting choreography despite it's animation budget. It doesn't even serve as a good origin story for the Titans in my opinion, since it hate how it pretends the Federation needed more reason than the One Year War itself to police Spacenoids and presents the Federation as morons who immediately back-tracked on wanting a big gun navy after the One Year War, despite how the early days of the war made it crystal clear how untenable that position now was among other things. What I've seen of Rebellion and heard even it's defenders say is that for all the good changes it makes, that it's included a lot of other dumb poo poo that works out to be about the same as whatever you felt about it before. The latest silliness I've seen from it being that Gato apparently lived through his suicide charge and then re-appeared as a blind kendo user who is basically Zatoichi in Gundam because his noble samurai schtick wasn't explicit enough before. Which is on top of Cima living through her apparent death, because she wasn't actually in the Gerbera Tetra when it was destroyed. I would not be surprised if Delaz turns up in future stuff at this point, since Imanishi apparently doesn't want any of it's noble Zeon good guys to die. I should probably have mentioned Cima in my rant on 0083's characters too, now that I think about it, since a lot of people love her. I'm pretty sure a lot of her fans are creepy assholes who just want Dommy Mommy to step on them though. She's held up as some tragic figure who was constantly used and abused by Zeon, but while the radio plays somewhat support that idea, it's definitely not present in the show we got. Instead, she's just a rather generic cackling scumbag who very obvioiusly does not give a single poo poo about any of her own men. When the Albion comes in shooting at her ships during the negotiation with the Titans, and the Titans attack her fleet, crippling one of the ships her only response is "Oh, they're obviously just letting me get away", when she sees one of her ships put on it's landing lights and then get sniped by a mobile suit in the final battle, she just sneers that she told them not to do so, so they got what they deserved. She's not even presented all that sympathically in the Bluray special adaptations of the Mayfly of Space stuff, where she shouts "Sieg Zeon" when she thinks she's about to die at A Baoa Qu (or maybe Solomon, I forget) despite this being nearly a year after she'd apparently inadvertantly gassed a colony and then gets abandoned by Zeon not because they hang her out to dry after the war, but because she didn't want to give up her ship as part of the appeasement process at the end of the war. Whatever the radio play wants to say about her, in animation she's a selfish and kind of stupid commander whose only loyalty was to her own ends and continued supporting Zeon so long as they enabled her regardless of the fact they scapegoated her for gassing a colony. The end result is that her working with the Titans comes off not as her realizing how bad Zeon or the Delaz Fleet were, but simply working for what she thought would be the winning side and trying to get the most advantage out of it to make her own life better. tsob fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Nov 10, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 18:58
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I like cima and the big mechanic lady.
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Nov 10, 2022 19:16
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GM bros https://twitter.com/dtz1200wg/status/1590694205521014786?s=46&t=nypkyhdbdspdYjpdYOD1-Q
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Nov 10, 2022 19:34
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DamnGlitch posted:I like cima and the big mechanic lady. I'd be interested in hearing why, if you care to explain. And if it's Cima as she is in the animation, or Cima as she is in the radio play and other supplementary sources?
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Nov 10, 2022 19:38
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Gripweed posted:GM bros About drat time, we've only had 30+ years of MS Girls, we're only getting MS Himbos now? Mora is good because she and Keith have a generally healthy relationship which is downright exceptional in Gundam where relationships usually end with someone exploding.
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Nov 10, 2022 19:40
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Arc Hammer posted:About drat time, we've only had 30+ years of MS Girls, we're only getting MS Himbos now? Unfortunately Nina's relationship ended with only Gato exploding. 1/3 does not pass. And the G(y)M Bros are way too armored to be compared to MS Girls. They just look like sci-fi dudes in future armor suits. Nary a midriff or thigh in sight.
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Nov 10, 2022 21:45
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Arc Hammer posted:
atleast until he runs into quattro bajeena or kamille
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Nov 10, 2022 21:46
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I watched the first episode of 0083 a couple weeks back, and it's a shame how it wound up, because, as of the first episode, Keith, Kou, Nina, and Mora are set up to be a fun set of characters. Kou and Nina are both MS nerds, but she's used to her expertise being ignored due to being a woman, so Kou's enthusiasm comes off as irritating rather than charming. Meanwhile, we see Keith and Mora both trying to protect their friends, with Keith being obnoxiously forward so Nina doesn't notice Kou in the MS, while Mora makes Keith stop bothering Nina. It's a good old fashioned romantic comedy setup where you have a guy and a girl who will eventually be perfect for each other once they stop driving each other insane, alongside their friends having a much more calm and normal relationship. Of course, that leads into one of the causes of 0083 being a mess, where they kept changing writers and changed directors midway in. Meant that a constant tone was much more difficult to maintain.
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Nov 10, 2022 21:57
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Stairmaster posted:atleast until he runs into quattro bajeena or kamille Well Keith didn't join the Titans like Monsha and the other shitbags. He just went back to being a test pilot at the end. Doesn't bode well for his survival in the long run considering what happens but he's less likely to get attacked by A Char.
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Nov 10, 2022 22:04
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tsob posted:I'd be interested in hearing why, if you care to explain. And if it's Cima as she is in the animation, or Cima as she is in the radio play and other supplementary sources? She’s hot.
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Nov 10, 2022 22:04
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Man I feel like I just have the opposite take on 0083 as everyone here. The first two episodes are good then it becomes like unwatchable dogshit until Gato nukes the naval review and then I think it is absolutely great until the end. I even think the last few episodes do a great job of rehabilitating a lot of themes of the work prior to that. Kou journey to MANHOOD is something I absolutely despise and having him show up at the end and having Gato be like "That was all meaningless bullshit. Did you really get this far and forget to believe in ANYTHING?" feels pretty good. I think those episodes treatment of Nina sucks but I think the whole show is like staggeringly misogynistic throughout so when literally becomes a trophy that is taken away from Kou and awarded to Gato it feels bad but also not really that much worse then the other poo poo that that character is subjected too. Also I just think the multi-episode action set piece of the colony-jacking and drop is just great giant robot poo poo. EDIT: Since I kind of dislike the whole MAN MAN MANLY MAN focus the show has I kind of like it that Gato's thing is ultimately self destructive as well even though I don't totally trust that the show intended it. EDIT 2: Remember the bit where Kou is running through Anaheim being like "I have to be able to get out there! I'm the special boy!" and then the GP-03 is litterally revealed with the music sting it would get it it were Jason appearing behind you with a machete and Nina reacts with abject horror. Great stuff. Truly the devils machine. Sam Sanskrit fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Nov 10, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 22:14
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chiasaur11 posted:Of course, that leads into one of the causes of 0083 being a mess, where they kept changing writers and changed directors midway in. Meant that a constant tone was much more difficult to maintain. I really don't know where people get the idea 0083 had a problem based on the number of writers. Almost every serial production ever has multiple writers; and the longer it is, the greater the number of writers, generally. The ones that don't have multiple writers at all are the exception, not the norm. Gundam 0083 had 4 writers across it's 12 episodes, but that is not a remotely unusual amount. Zeta Gundam had 4 writers in its first 12 episodes too for instance, along with a couple more over the course of the show. 08th MS Team only had two writers, but that's actually a pretty small number given it's length, especially when one writer only did two episodes. 0080 had only one writer, but that's more likely a function of it's short episode order of 6 episodes than anything else. If there's a problem with 0083's writers room and lack of communication between them over plot points, tone etc then it's ultimately a problem for or with the production's overall director. Where there was something unusual, because while Mitsuko Kase was the sole director (show director, not episode director; which most serial productions change regularly, like writers) on episode 1, Imanishi joined him as a co-director until Kase left after episode 6, with Imanishi as sole show director after that. Meaning the show had two primary directors (again, not episode directors) for 5 episodes. Which is definitely unusual, and I've no idea why it how it happened. I cannot imagine it helped with those episodes to ultimately have two separate people as the boss though. Still, Imanishi was actually around for 12 of the shows 13 episodes though, so really, the shows problems ultimately fall at his feet. tsob fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Nov 10, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 22:27
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tsob posted:I really don't know where people get the idea 0083 had a problem based on the number of writers. Almost every serial production ever has multiple writers; and the longer it is, the greater the number of writers, generally. The ones that don't have multiple writers at all are the exception, not the norm. Gundam 0083 had 4 writers across it's 12 episodes, but that is not a remotely unusual amount. Zeta Gundam had 4 writers in its first 12 episodes too for instance, along with a couple more over the course of the show. The issue isn't having multiple writers. It's that they passed the thing like a hot potato. While you see plenty of things in Zeta yo-yo between arcs due to writers going back and forth, you at least hit both tones again, so it feels somewhat less awkward. Meanwhile, 0083 just goes and leaves previous tones behind, so there's more inconsistency. (Also, 2 writers for 13 episodes is nothing special. There are plenty of shows with only one credited main writer for that kind of runtime. ZZ Gundam only had 6 for 47, and two of them only were credited with the first episode clip show, while G Gundam was down to 5 for 49, with one writer only doing 1 episode. 4 lead writers for 13 episodes is definitely on the high end.)
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Nov 10, 2022 22:51
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one day i'm gonna watch 0083 to see if the production value can hold up a bad story. i believe it's possible
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Nov 10, 2022 23:18
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Finished up the original MSG and it kicked a lot of rear end. It lulled a bit in the middle (or maybe it was because I was watching it in the middle of the night with a newborn), but the ending drew me back in. I'm starting Zeta Gundam now and it's... Fine. It started great with Kamille and going into how the Federation hosed him over but the past few episodes have just been dragging. It's a longer series so I'm sure it'll pick up but eh.
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Nov 10, 2022 23:55
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Count Thrashula posted:Finished up the original MSG and it kicked a lot of rear end. It lulled a bit in the middle (or maybe it was because I was watching it in the middle of the night with a newborn), but the ending drew me back in. Zeta has a few great arcs, but it's much less consistent than the original Gundam, yeah. Also, more recurring enemy pilots who don't have arcs so much as they show up for a bit then die. It's a show that looks great in memory, thanks to a strong finale and core arc, but it doesn't hold up as well during the watching.
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Nov 11, 2022 00:01
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Zeta Spoilers Zeta tends to use it's tertiary cast as amalgamated counterparts. That is to say Kamille and Jerid's arcs are mirrored for most of the runtime of the series, and the bit players serve to show how one can be influenced for good or ill by them, and how that guidance can be corrupted. From the beginning both of them are talented but reckless morons with an overabundance of privileged, Jerid from his Titans status and Kamille from his dad's connections. Both come under the tutelage of a OYW veteran, with Quattro and Lila. Both have their own women who support them with Fa and Mouar. And their arcs track an opposite trajectory, Starting in similar places Kamille undergoes constant growth and learning through the rigors of war, learning to selflessness and courage to do what's right even at the potential cost of his life while tempering his own hotheadedness and more bratty behavior. Jerid instead with most of his better influences killed off retreats more and more into his own delusions of grandeur and self importance. Kamille learns to work within the AEUG to affect change for the better, while Jerid stays in the Titans to hopefully be the last man standing to take charge, Kamille supported by his fallen compatriots finds the courage to end the life of Scirocco even though it might cost him his own, whereas the utterly alone Jerid tries his own suicide run and then backs out because he still places his own life over everything else. The fact that Jerid doesn't even make it to the end to fight Kamille is the greatest condemnation of his character and it's arc. Dude has so far regressed that he cannot even be considered a rival anymore, and just as Kamille has moved on from selfish reasons for fighting for the AEUG so to has his enemy changed to the far more dangerous Scirocco. As a whole Zeta is far more interested in Kamille than MSG was in Amuro, despite the general feeling people might have as he was the first and has the most screen presence out of all Gundam protags. In MSG secondary and tertiary characters tend to get a focus that is for themselves, whereas the characters in Zeta tend to exist to influence and be influenced by Kamille. Consider the difference in Brights arc in MSG to Zeta. The focus of Zeta is Kamille because he is the archetype of the post OYW person, someone who did not fight but is still scarred by it's effects. Zeta asks us what the world post OYW would look like, and in creating the Kamille character it shows us the effects that linger from it would have on the singular human vs. the collective humanity.
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Nov 11, 2022 00:36
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ninjewtsu posted:one day i'm gonna watch 0083 to see if the production value can hold up a bad story. i believe it's possible 0083 suffers from the story being bad and also the characters being bad, which is a rough one. Kou and Gato are in the running for lamest and most wooden protagonist/antagonist duo in the franchise, which is extremely painful because a fair number of Gundam shows are basically driven by the protag/antag interplay. I still think 0083's audiovisuals are far and away good enough to be worth experiencing at least once, though. It's a truly gorgeous piece of animation and the OST knocks it out of the park.
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Nov 11, 2022 00:48
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Count Thrashula posted:Finished up the original MSG and it kicked a lot of rear end. It lulled a bit in the middle (or maybe it was because I was watching it in the middle of the night with a newborn), but the ending drew me back in. Kudos on rocking MSG! What an epic. Zeta is my favorite, speaking of animation and style, hot drat, the mid 80s. Oh lord it's cool. I've had 0083 on the backlog for a hundred years, will try it some day. Speaking of Time Be Still, that's a cool episode. I watched the movie trilogy first years ago, which rules too, so stuff like that was brand new to me.
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Nov 11, 2022 02:52
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tsob posted:I'd be interested in hearing why, if you care to explain. And if it's Cima as she is in the animation, or Cima as she is in the radio play and other supplementary sources? Cima is a hot milf and the big lady is a big lady.
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Nov 11, 2022 02:59
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Also they look cool. I want the bridge of my warship to have a white tiger shag rug on my throne. She's also the only 35 year old who looks anywhere near to 35.
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Nov 11, 2022 03:11
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Legit surprised she’s actually 35 and not like 27. Good for her
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Nov 11, 2022 03:21
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DamnGlitch posted:Cima is a hot milf and the big lady is a big lady. Cima's pretty tall too. Official stats say she's the same height as Gato. Outside of PD you aren't going to find many bigger. Heavy Metal posted:Kudos on rocking MSG! What an epic. Zeta is my favorite, speaking of animation and style, hot drat, the mid 80s. Oh lord it's cool. Fun thing about Time Be Still? Cuaran has his own spin-off manga and a cameo in the Doan's Island movie. And they're both good! I've talked about it before, but it still stands out as having a better than normal balance between a Zeon protagonist and Zeon the faction still being terrible.
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Nov 11, 2022 03:25
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