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zoux posted:No, that switches between the two proliferator modes, extra items or extra speed (you almost always want extra items) Expanding on this: if every step of your production chain has a sprayed input, the free items you pick up by the end of the chain has to be a good amount of free product. I’m sure someone has done the actual math behind it, but the free products have to have a ripple effect down the chain when you’re working at the scales of mass production.
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Nov 13, 2022 23:23
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I'm waiting to start picking up the game again until they introduce combat.
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Nov 13, 2022 23:33
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I find that the sweet spot is level 2 spray, because the level 3 spray doubles the additional power requirements for only a marginal gain. That said, I also treat spray as an efficiency thing first and foremost: I don't alter blueprints in order to take into account the additional products that spray produces (i.e. I create production chains based on sprayless ratios), mainly I just use it because it greatly reduces resource drain. This is also why I never pick the production speedup option. Besides, if you want to speed up production, just put down another line: assemblers are cheap and a one-off cost, whereas burning sprayer to speed things up is an ongoing additional drain on resources.
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Nov 13, 2022 23:42
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Icon Of Sin posted:Expanding on this: if every step of your production chain has a sprayed input, the free items you pick up by the end of the chain has to be a good amount of free product. I’m sure someone has done the actual math behind it, but the free products have to have a ripple effect down the chain when you’re working at the scales of mass production. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTIO17fQdPg Faster production I think is only marginally worth it for 1-to-1 items like gears
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Nov 13, 2022 23:45
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Does "spray everything" apply to buildings too? eg do my wind turbines make more energy/smelters smelt more efficiently/etc if I spray them
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Nov 14, 2022 00:49
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Couple newbie questions (I've only just branched out from the starter planet to collect titanium from a lava one): 1) How much should I care about efficiently balancing inputs and outputs? I tend to over-supply everything that doesn't depend on the most complicated production chains. 2) Should I be trying to bring resources into a common point and then supplying factories and smelters from there? I've been preferring to set up outposts and basic production lines wherever the resources are instead of trying to centralize everything. I have no idea how effective a planetary logistics system would be versus making a giant mess of belts. Would it resolve everything I'm uncertain about? Edit: also I hate everything to do with oil refineries Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Nov 14, 2022 |
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Nov 14, 2022 01:06
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Should I be using sprayed spray to spray my spray or is using unsprayed spray to spray the spray fine?
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Nov 14, 2022 01:18
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Should I be using sprayed spray to spray my spray or is using unsprayed spray to spray the spray fine? It's fine in the way Pepsi is fine.
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Nov 14, 2022 01:23
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Should I be using sprayed spray to spray my spray or is using unsprayed spray to spray the spray fine? You should be using sprayed spray because the sprayed spray becomes a lot better at spraying.
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Nov 14, 2022 02:15
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Tiny Timbs posted:Couple newbie questions (I've only just branched out from the starter planet to collect titanium from a lava one): Self-contained vs. centralized has always been a topic of discussion. Efficiency vs. convenience. In practical terms, I find the decision often hinges on my current power situation. Sometimes it’s better (at a given point in time) to offload some of my power requirements to a remote planet, sometimes it isn’t. There’s also the “cost” of interplanetary transport. At first it’s relatively expensive so you may want to do things like smelt silicon remotely so you halve the transport cost (since it takes two ore to make one plate), but after a while eh, I can just plop down another tower + vessels if I need to. Once it’s relatively easy to build towers, you’ll be hooked and won’t run belts anywhere, I’d guess. Oil gets a little better soon, or more to the point you’ll probably set up one production line and then never expand it.
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Nov 14, 2022 02:18
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Wafflecopper posted:Does "spray everything" apply to buildings too? eg do my wind turbines make more energy/smelters smelt more efficiently/etc if I spray them I think finished buildings don't get any effect from sprays, no.
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Nov 14, 2022 02:39
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WithoutTheFezOn posted:Most of what you ask is personal preference. I don’t think it’s much of a spoiler to say not too far into the future you’ll be at a point where you can build pretty much whatever you want at will (except maybe what’s currently “cutting edge”), so it doesn’t matter a ton. Thanks, personal preference is great - I was mainly worried there would be one correct way to handle things because of resource scarcity or some other mechanic.
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Nov 14, 2022 03:10
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Unless you dial down the resources on purpose, there's not really a fail state for the game. There's no real limit on space or resources and since you can infinitely level the mining improvement tech with white science, you actually get to a point where you can't outproduce what you're mining. The two main ways I see people play are either modular or black box/integrated factories. Black box players like to set up massive huge factories that take in raw resources on one end and output a product on the other. This has the advantage of not overproducing and having a rock solid supply chain, but it can be tedious to lay out 40 smelters every time you make a factory that includes supermagnetic rings. They also tend to be a lot slower. Modular is where you take the actual listed ingredients for a product and put them in an ILS on one end, figure out how many factories you can output to a single belt, and then make as many rows of that as you can, and cram them into an ILS on the other end. This has the advantage of being much faster and producing huge amounts, but it's easy for your chain to get broken when you run out of some critical component. So you'd have a huge factory making gears, one making coils, one making circuit boards, and on up. (Which is green motors.) and it can kind of cascade if you are way underproducing anything in the crafting chain. You can play in the middle, like set up a huge smelting forge with giant 100 smelter factories making all your iron ingots and then use that as your starting input. I tend to go modular, but you want to have some good info mods or it's easy for everything to fall apart. zoux fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Nov 14, 2022 |
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Nov 14, 2022 03:40
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There was also a neat semi-modular approach - instead of putting everything in the network, you only moved a subset (ie. don't ship around gears and red engines, just input iron/copper/magnets and out go the green engines, which are actually used extensively). The layouts were using direct inserters for intermediates (within a module) a lot of the time, so they aren't taking advantage of sprays, which is a shame. It's a cool idea, since you wouldn't have to look at 80 resources to balance around, you just need to look at smelting, and maybe 10 intermediates + science.
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Nov 14, 2022 09:15
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OGS-Remix posted:You should be using sprayed spray because the sprayed spray becomes a lot better at spraying. But if the sprayed spray is better at spraying then you should be spraying spray with spray that's been sprayed, but then that means that the sprayed spray that's been sprayed with sprayed spray is also better at spraying spray, and then 
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Nov 14, 2022 09:51
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Sprayed spray is better at spraying, because you get more spray per spray increasing the amount of sprays that can be sprayed; not because the sprayed item is better than one sprayed by a non-sprayed spray. Hope this helps.
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Nov 14, 2022 09:54
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the spray meme
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Nov 14, 2022 10:27
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mmkay posted:There was also a neat semi-modular approach - instead of putting everything in the network, you only moved a subset (ie. don't ship around gears and red engines, just input iron/copper/magnets and out go the green engines, which are actually used extensively). The layouts were using direct inserters for intermediates (within a module) a lot of the time, so they aren't taking advantage of sprays, which is a shame. It's a cool idea, since you wouldn't have to look at 80 resources to balance around, you just need to look at smelting, and maybe 10 intermediates + science. This is how I do things. Except instead of direct inserters, I run a double belt (goes up one way, does a U-turn where I spray, comes down the other where I take in the resources for the next step). But, I often have giant lines feeding another giant line. It's easy to do but ends up a mess as you add more and more stuff. I asked way back when how people feel about setting things to infinite resources and the overwhelming consensus was "do what you want" so that's what I do. gently caress having to deal with that after I set up my intricate factories. I asked earlier if people have giant lines running halfway around the planet like I do and people do. But now, I'm on a business trip for a week and I'm thinking of starting a new game to try a different style. More modular, I think, using way more towers. More aggressively spray everything straight from the beginning. More aggressively expand to other planets and start setting up forgeworlds earlier. See what I can get done in a week.
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Nov 14, 2022 14:27
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The new (ish?) tech for oil reforming gives a great example of a self-contained production chain you can build — it’s got weird ratios but you can have a chunk of machines that take in crude oil and coal, and output nothing but plastic.
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Nov 14, 2022 14:51
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totalnewbie posted:I asked way back when how people feel about setting things to infinite resources and the overwhelming consensus was "do what you want" so that's what I do. gently caress having to deal with that after I set up my intricate factories. My experience at default settings is that you are only really feeling pressure from resource depletion when it comes time to leave your first system. I haven’t played a lot of clusters but I’ve been watching a lot of YouTube play throughs in the background at work and that seems to be a common opinion. quote:I asked earlier if people have giant lines running halfway around the planet like I do and people do. But now, I'm on a business trip for a week and I'm thinking of starting a new game to try a different style. More modular, I think, using way more towers. More aggressively spray everything straight from the beginning. More aggressively expand to other planets and start setting up forgeworlds earlier. See what I can get done in a week. Since I mentioned YouTube. Nilaus’s “achievement” play through has some builds more like, but moving from the “spam tower” side.
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Nov 14, 2022 14:51
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Yeah, my current game makes a lot of use of belts but this time, I specifically want to minimize long-distance belts. Just for a different feel. My concern is that there's going to be some pretty heavy power consumption from the now-not-free transportation but I plan to just push hard for artificial stars and spam the poo poo out of them. And I know that the finite resources actually last a long time. But I just don't want to think about it at all, ever. /shrug
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Nov 14, 2022 15:24
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Long rear end belts are temporary, once you get to logistics stations the game completely changes.
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Nov 14, 2022 15:31
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my playthrough i realized I was running out of silicon in my home system and had to rush to get together a stone->silicon pipeline. as soon as i got to another system it became a non-issue. on future playthroughs I think I'd rush to get the warp tech a little faster just because i found that crunch a little stressful
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Nov 14, 2022 15:42
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The new logistic bots are good for bridging the gap between long snaking conveyor lines around your base and using a full blown PLS/ILS to transport stuff to other places in the same factory. They don't carry as much and before upgrading the range is pretty low but it's great for shipping mats elsewhere in a pinch.
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Nov 14, 2022 15:44
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explosivo posted:The new logistic bots are good for bridging the gap between long snaking conveyor lines around your base and using a full blown PLS/ILS to transport stuff to other places in the same factory. They don't carry as much and before upgrading the range is pretty low but it's great for shipping mats elsewhere in a pinch. They seem pretty expensive, though. I just have long snaking conveyor lines and use the logistics bots as refueling stations for my mech.
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Nov 14, 2022 15:48
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They’re really great for moving warpers and spray around. You can even put the spray hat on a two level splitter right next to your line of sprayers for a very clean look.
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Nov 14, 2022 16:18
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hobbesmaster posted:They’re really great for moving warpers and spray around. You can even put the spray hat on a two level splitter right next to your line of sprayers for a very clean look. Yeah anything that doesn't go through a ton of mats quickly its perfect for. It's a game changer for spray, for sure.
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Nov 14, 2022 16:22
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totalnewbie posted:My concern is that there's going to be some pretty heavy power consumption from the now-not-free transportation
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Nov 14, 2022 16:31
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Yep, I know, thanks. But I'm thinking about later on with some high throughput items that could otherwise traverse the distance FREE via belts. Towers use infinitely more power :P
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Nov 14, 2022 16:40
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I've only just got to making yellow cubes (I retooled my plastic production that filled a large box to make crystals from the plastic it just finished making) Lightbulb moment to spray all of my research cubes for extra hashes to make my limited amount of yellow crystals
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Nov 14, 2022 16:56
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Here's an example of (attempted) integrated building to exact ratios Ah but his ratios are slightly off  instead of 24 processor assembler's he's got 25, and he's got 2 more circuit board assemblers than required... But it shows the advantage of integrated over modular building. You use circuit boards for a lot of poo poo, and if your central CB factory breaks, processors are just one of many things that aren't getting built. It's a lot harder to run out of ingots (and even harder to run out of ore) than it is to run out of manufactured components. I'm sure for aesthetics he added some stuff to balance it out, and he's using ingots as his base material rather than ore. But if he had made it too long, twice as many assemblers, he'd still be making 900/min but wasting half of his build. That's not a huge deal since you literally have the entire universe to build in, but it does waste resources which while not scarce are time consuming to create early game. Really you can only do wrong by underbuilding. I don't like overbuilding just because I get that dopamine hit from exact ratios. When approaching a new factory I first consider how many assemblers it takes saturate whatever belt I'm currently on, which can be calculated easily using this tool. Some poo poo is so slow that output is never going to matter  And some is so fast that you can overbuild real easily  Mostly I like to build factories no longer than 20 -30 assemblers, usually laid out in four rows. Your real limiter in building is the fact that you only have 12 I/O slots on your towers, and you may have to dedicate one to warpers and one to profilerators. But almost all of your builds aren't going to worry about exact ratios, you are going to be delivering way more input than you need for output. There are some cases that massively overuse certain resources (Deuterium fuel rods. Casimir Crystals) that used to require running a new belt of 2H five assembers into a line. With pilers now, you can still just run a single belt, which helps for compact footprints, but is still going to use the same number of I/O slots. So to reiterate, when building a factory, don't worry about exact ratios unless that's a thing you're doing on purpose, but do worry about overloading export belts and not having enough material on input belts to make it to the end of the line. And the latter is really only going to happen when you have recipes where one ingredients is required 3x or more than the others. And here's an example of modular building  You can see each factory is devoted to one product. What he shouldn't be doing here is using PLSs instead of ILSs and also that he is trying to expand with Mk II belts, which you should skip. But this is basically what most people's planets end up looking like, everything neat and in a row. You have one main smelter for each ingot (I typically use 4 x 24 depending on prod. time) and add more as you need them. It's a lot easier to lose track of what you have where here, like you accidentally forget to limit delivery to 1000 units and suddenly you have one guy hoovering up all your iron, which is why I recommend robust info mods like LSTM and Bottleneck. zoux fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Nov 14, 2022 |
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Nov 14, 2022 23:10
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Personal logistics mall is finally making every important item. Standing in the middle of this and being automatically refilled on materials is a lot better than having to go around to each production line like before. Small drones are a relatively minor patch but between this and spay dispersal I've been using them for a lot of things.
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Nov 15, 2022 04:01
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Cool. Now do it again, only with ten times the assemblers outputting each type of building to an ILS so that you can request another thousand of anything you want no matter what solar system you're in. 
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Nov 15, 2022 06:41
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Breetai posted:Cool. Now do it again, only with ten times the assemblers outputting each type of building to an ILS so that you can request another thousand of anything you want no matter what solar system you're in. An ILST with a thousand ILST inside. I woke up this morning at 1245 AM and put a couple hours into my new build, this time with galactic scale mod because I figure why not give it a looksee. Started on a savannah planet and it has spinelform whatever, titanium, and silicon on it. Looks like an easy start... So far just setting up my mall and got blue cubes going (it's a little slow going because this laptop only chugs along at 25-30 fps) totalnewbie fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Nov 15, 2022 |
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Nov 15, 2022 09:29
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Should I be using sprayed spray to spray my spray or is using unsprayed spray to spray the spray fine? Loop your spray back over its own supply-to-tower feed (or use a splitter), so that eventually all the spray which is being produced gets sprayed by max-spray spray and then goes right into Logistics. Once the initial production runs, before the loop-back fills up, have been consumed it should be effectively impossible to find un-sprayed spray anywhere in your factory. e to contribute to another discussion: ultimately the most limited resource in any factory game is the player's time and attention. For this reason I like to pick one of the other worlds in my home system and make it the forge world, which ships in ore from all over the cluster and makes ingots available for request. Ideally this will be a planet with a wind-power bonus, for the initial build-out, but by the time I've got my first set of gas-giant extractors deployed I will have supplemented the planetary-scale-stubble generation system with blocks of thermal generators fed by pure, natural, renewable hydrogen gas. I feel like burning enough poo poo for long enough on a planet should have the effect of scaling up its wind-power bonus, both from the increasing density and also the systemic warming it's producing. I keep an eye on my cluster-wide smelting capacity vs cluster-wide average and potential demand, and when needed show up to drop down a couple more smelter blocks for whatever. I've blueprinted these to be connected to an integrated logistics tower, which also orders its own spray and runs it out through the block's sprayers, though most of the initial builds are from before spray and as a result I've got a couple which have so many inputs and outputs that I have to run a spray conveyor from an adjacent block. I smash all of these pretty closely together to conserve space, so it's not really ever a problem. Manufacturing is initially centralized to the homeworld, though separating out the highest-volume stuff to have its own dedicated Factory Worlds isn't by any means a bad idea. So far I haven't done this, but in my deepest playthrough I have a separate Chemistry World, which mostly processes Spiniform Stalagmites into tubes and ships them out to become Frame Material. LonsomeSon fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Nov 15, 2022 |
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Nov 15, 2022 21:00
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Nilaus has a new series called Masterclass that has deep tutorials on aspects on the game. Just four out for now, but he hasn't really been doing a lot of DSP content lately and he's probably the guy who I learned the most from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJF9vQtpWnY Also I know a lot of people recently have been asking about game flow and this covers specifically early, mid, and late game so you can see how designs and requirements change from phase to phase
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Nov 15, 2022 21:21
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Hydrogen burns into water but also has high NOx formation so you're asking for a smoggy water world.
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Nov 15, 2022 22:14
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I've seen people talk about using accumulators to power distant worlds, but how does that work? As far as I can tell, they need to be manually picked up, which seems like a thorn in the side for automation. As a side note: I never thought I'd run out of hydrogen and deuterium until I started making green science and poo poo tons (probably too many) deuterium rods. I'm barely holding on with an ice giant nearly maxxed out on collectors and a gas giant 5 LY away with 10 on it. On a related note, it seems like the interstellar collectors can just transport to other systems without using warp cores?
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Nov 16, 2022 00:58
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shipping accumulators around sucks and isn't worth it. that said, you belt them in to/out of energy exchangers to charge them.
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Nov 16, 2022 01:07
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Vasler posted:On a related note, it seems like the interstellar collectors can just transport to other systems without using warp cores? They don't have vessels of their own- an Interstellar Logistics Station (that is requesting hydrogen or w/e) sends a vessel to the collector with two warp cores for each leg of the trip.
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Nov 16, 2022 03:41
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