(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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love that lil goblin
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Nov 17, 2022 01:13
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tristeham posted:zizek is a socdem and a natoist My theory is that he is an inveterate accelerationist so has deliberately struggled to become the ultimate liberal. The outward just reflects the inward
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Nov 17, 2022 01:26
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He's trying to trick liberals into reading his stuff. It's called praxis.
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Nov 17, 2022 01:29
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croup coughfield posted:what do you mean by this his main point of contention with the NATO intervention in Serbia was that they should have started the bombing earlier. during his political career in Slovenia he was involved with the liberal democrat party which when they were in power persecuted romas.
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Nov 17, 2022 01:54
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Wait, you mean an academic with no connection to political work would just lie about their politics?
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Nov 17, 2022 01:55
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another victim of ideology, hoist by his own petard
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Nov 17, 2022 02:03
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zizek in that one guardian piece imagines a NATO without the USA basically he imagines a militarised EU á la macron. it is an interesting and strange fantasy to indulge.
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Nov 17, 2022 02:32
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the trump presidency media cycle snapped his brain like a twig
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Nov 17, 2022 02:33
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Žižek read too much hegel and lacan and now his brain is fried and he's become a (shudder) idealist. some of his writing is interesting (sublime object of ideology in particular), but it's completely lost touch with the materialist core of the marxist project, and he's forgotten that ideology is nothing without bare power. a nato without the US is as likely as a square circle or g*d inventing a rock even he couldn't lift
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Nov 17, 2022 03:26
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8FVBWpfdfI
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Nov 17, 2022 06:24
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V. Illych L. posted:zizek in that one guardian piece imagines a NATO without the USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URumMxPlLIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjunBFQC7aY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shylwZb_F6o Bonus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBswynBxPNM Maximo Roboto has issued a correction as of 07:45 on Nov 17, 2022 |
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Nov 17, 2022 07:41
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V. Illych L. posted:zizek in that one guardian piece imagines a NATO without the USA
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Nov 17, 2022 07:58
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I never liked Žižek. I mostly knew of him from the poo poo he did in the early 90s until he started being an internet meme.
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Nov 17, 2022 11:54
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I'll admit I liked Zizek (and still like a lot of his writing, even though I rarely pronounce his name correctly in conversations), but yeah I've lost a lot of respect for him over the past couple of years. He went from calling for the destruction of the US political system as a necessary step for anything getting better to scolding people to shore up that very system because the idea of it actually falling apart started making him uncomfortable, which is some weak rear end poo poo no matter how you cut it.
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Nov 17, 2022 12:18
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at first, i thought zizek was trolling guardian because that first article ends with thisquote:the only way to defend what is worth saving in our liberal tradition is to ruthlessly insist on its universality. The moment we apply double standards, we are no less “pragmatic” than Russia. there were insane double standards before the invasion even began but then he just doubled down in the 2nd one 
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Nov 17, 2022 12:24
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well, he did say he was eating from the trash
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Nov 17, 2022 12:27
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I will be passing the Great Wall of Hungary again tomorrow morning, so guess what I think of the virtues of a militarized fortress Europe, with or without USA. e: And to all the people asking me to go look at the Berlin Wall and pontificate about the horror of it or whatever the gently caress: gently caress you. No, seriously, gently caress you. e2: Just realized this isn't the thread I thought it was, but whatever. my dad has issued a correction as of 13:17 on Nov 17, 2022 |
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Nov 17, 2022 13:14
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my dad posted:I will be passing the Great Wall of Hungary again tomorrow morning, so guess what I think of the virtues of a militarized fortress Europe, with or without USA. Wth is the context for this lmao What does the Berlin Wall mean to them? Horror??? I visit so few threads hahaha
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Nov 17, 2022 13:25
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Nobody on the forums said anything about the wall, it's just a topic that came up a lot for me irl for the past week since I'm in Berlin atm and i'm kinda sick of it. I've been doing a tiny trip report in the cspam EU thread. my dad has issued a correction as of 13:29 on Nov 17, 2022 |
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Nov 17, 2022 13:27
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did you go to the deutsches historiches museum. I liked it when I was there a decade ago
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Nov 17, 2022 13:33
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I spent a lot of my spare time there on the museum island, it's cool. I'll post my impressions in the other thread once I'm back in Serbia.
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Nov 17, 2022 13:35
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zizek is good because he is a troll and lacan has some good poo poo too psychoanalysis and marxism getting together is a project that, to the surprise of everybody involved, actually does work. Marxist analysis on structure and culture develop extremely well what Freud started on "Civilization and its Discontents", while psychoanalysis works incredibly to elaborate stuff like commodity fetishism, false consciousness and is basically the scaffold for Marxist microanalysis, i.e. the study of the individual subject and the counterpart of dominant microeconomics
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Nov 17, 2022 14:59
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Truga posted:at first, i thought zizek was trolling guardian because that first article ends with this I think that's partly Zizek's point, to say that there are insane double standards and people are right to point them out, but that the response shouldn't be to accept double standards as the way the world works but instead to insist that the West actually uphold its claimed values because as long as the West maintains those insane double standards then they aren't any different than Russia's own political pragmatism, they just hide it behind different language. He's basically saying "if the West is really so committed to a 'rules-based international order' then they should prove it by applying those rules even when it isn't politically convenient". It's a naive argument because surely even Zizek himself knows there's no chance of that happening and he must also know that no Western leader cares about being exposed as a hypocrite, but okay, I can see his point. The second one, well, I'll just say that I find more convincing Wolfgang Streeck's argument that instead of this war leading to Europe strengthening itself as an independent power, it's leading to the US securing European cooperation as essentially a subordinate regional power that allows the US to refocus attention and resources against China. Idk if he's always been this way, I haven't followed his career that much, but it seems Zizek is at the point in every leftist public intellectual's career and life where he mostly just coasts along publishing articles saying "hey did you know capitalism is bad, but alternatives can also be bad? makes u think"
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Nov 17, 2022 15:06
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my dad posted:I will be passing the Great Wall of Hungary again tomorrow morning, so guess what I think of the virtues of a militarized fortress Europe, with or without USA. Oh so China builds a wall and it's a great legacy from an ancient culture, but Hungary does it and suddenly it's "this is a physical symbol of insane fascism"
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Nov 17, 2022 15:15
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dead gay comedy forums posted:zizek is good because he is a troll and lacan has some good poo poo too Psychoanalysis is basically a science that describes the way social relations impacts the individual. Seems like a natural segue into a larger scope like class.
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Nov 17, 2022 15:31
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Falstaff posted:I'll admit I liked Zizek (and still like a lot of his writing, even though I rarely pronounce his name correctly in conversations), but yeah I've lost a lot of respect for him over the past couple of years. He went from calling for the destruction of the US political system as a necessary step for anything getting better to scolding people to shore up that very system because the idea of it actually falling apart started making him uncomfortable, which is some weak rear end poo poo no matter how you cut it. The issue that I have had in trying to understand Zizek is that he seems to generally make correct critiques of the problem, that is he can accurately identify it and the source, but he has generally been unwilling or unable to articulate a comprehensive solution to the problems he accurately demonstrates. That doesn't mean his critique is worthless or even that it doesn't have a use, a food critic after all doesn't need to be a michelin star chef to point out that the toasted marshmallow they were served tastes like fish, for example, but it does limit the overall usefulness, and generally requires someone with a more comprehensive view to articulate the answer to the "okay, that's true, but then what?" question that any accurate critique asks.
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Nov 17, 2022 15:31
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Nah, people who go “capitalism bad” are a dime a dozen. The bread and butter of the compatible left is saying “capitalism bad” or “the west bad” with the subtext of “communism worse” or “the east worse”. An academic Marxist became a liberal as he aged and, importantly, became more invested in the system he frames himself as opposing. Yes he’s the funny sniffle man and that sucks but Occam’s razor here.
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Nov 17, 2022 15:37
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Psychoanalysis is basically a science that describes the way social relations impacts the individual. Seems like a natural segue into a larger scope like class. I can appreciate the thought, but what’s the material basis of psychoanalysis? It all seems like correlations and projections which while maybe real and true are guessed and iterated toward. I think Rev Left might have had a pod on the topic a while ago, maybe.
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Nov 17, 2022 15:48
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V. Illych L. posted:zizek in that one guardian piece imagines a NATO without the USA whatever that is, why would you call it NATO? is this not-NATO still giving billions of euros and tons of weapon to ukraine? how are they doing that? is zizek arguing in a roundabout way that russia should have won by now because all of that aid simply would not have materialized without the US? i havent the read the article but that shouldnt stop me from forming an opinion about it Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 has issued a correction as of 15:57 on Nov 17, 2022 |
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Nov 17, 2022 15:54
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Azathoth posted:The issue that I have had in trying to understand Zizek is that he seems to generally make correct critiques of the problem, that is he can accurately identify it and the source, but he has generally been unwilling or unable to articulate a comprehensive solution to the problems he accurately demonstrates. he's already blackballed from tv and most media for what he's written and said the problem is a general one, in that if you provide a solution it is not acceptable in polite society. it's possible (in only the strictest sense) that some alien brain wave machine would let things be transformed peacefully, but baring that it would involve incredible violence at the very least on part of of the people who already use it
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Nov 17, 2022 16:05
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The thing about Zizek is that he is a philosopher who successfully managed to get to the end of analysis, which is the point where somebody managed to thoroughly destitute their own takes about themselves and realize how completely human they are, with all faults one can have. A philosopher that realizes he knows jack poo poo and understands that he absolutely doesn't have to make sense to anybody else can work in other ways that "serious thinkers" would never try. He knows how ridiculous he is and he does good in embracing it (related: he did become a defender of China a little while ago after getting in touch with the Marxists there for a time after covid began, or just before)
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Nov 17, 2022 16:30
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you all are expecting an awful lot from a raccoon that a witch turned into a human anyway, what's a good zizek starting book? I'd like to add it to my pile of "books I will read 2-3 chapters of before moving onto the next and never completing even one book"
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Nov 17, 2022 16:40
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vyelkin posted:I think that's partly Zizek's point, to say that there are insane double standards and people are right to point them out, but that the response shouldn't be to accept double standards as the way the world works but instead to insist that the West actually uphold its claimed values because as long as the West maintains those insane double standards then they aren't any different than Russia's own political pragmatism, they just hide it behind different language. He's basically saying "if the West is really so committed to a 'rules-based international order' then they should prove it by applying those rules even when it isn't politically convenient". It's a naive argument because surely even Zizek himself knows there's no chance of that happening and he must also know that no Western leader cares about being exposed as a hypocrite, but okay, I can see his point. i tend to agree (and i think streeck is maybe the single most cogent commentator on that aspect of the ongoing war), and i suspect that zizek's just realised that the only way he's going to get printed much of anywhere in the liberal press is by at least facially accepting liberal premises. so his critiques sort of have to be structured in this "you are not living up to your own standards" way, which requires a level of subtlety and charity which is almost entirely absent from these discussions. to an extent, i think that his proposed solutions in those guardian pieces being obviously fantastical is deliberate. what it really does is exemplify the lack of any kind of left-wing mass media project, and the extreme pressure that such projects face; if you look at e.g. the grayzone they are consigned to the fringes both by their own design and by the way the press market is structured. there's no real social base for the alternative, and building media institutions in the time of press monopolisation is very difficult and capital-intensive, and so you're left with an increasingly narrow range of things which can be said in public. this is the landscape in which you get genuinely quite popular and radical podcasts and suchlike; there's popular appetite but no institutions, so you can only really make it work as an entertainment product.
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Nov 17, 2022 16:43
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Sunny Side Up posted:I can appreciate the thought, but what’s the material basis of psychoanalysis? It all seems like correlations and projections which while maybe real and true are guessed and iterated toward. I think Rev Left might have had a pod on the topic a while ago, maybe. Unless you want to stick to hardcore Freudian analysis, you could consider the parents in complete control of food and shelter for the child, letting them shape the learned behaviors and beliefs that a child carries with them through their life. Of course, you would have to include the way society impacts them as well.
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Nov 17, 2022 16:49
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there's nothing necessarily anti-materialist about psychology or psychoanalysis, at least not if one takes "materialism" to mean what marx and that lot did, which is something a little distinct from the modern analytical materialist tendency which makes much stronger claims about the world. something like property dualism doesn't seem obviously incompatible with marxian materialism, for instance.
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Nov 17, 2022 16:56
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Falstaff posted:I'll admit I liked Zizek (and still like a lot of his writing, even though I rarely pronounce his name correctly in conversations), but yeah I've lost a lot of respect for him over the past couple of years. He went from calling for the destruction of the US political system as a necessary step for anything getting better to scolding people to shore up that very system because the idea of it actually falling apart started making him uncomfortable, which is some weak rear end poo poo no matter how you cut it. zizek is like Sam Harris : he uses scientific and rationalist language/terms to prop up western capitalism against any opposition to it
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Nov 17, 2022 16:56
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Sunny Side Up posted:I can appreciate the thought, but what’s the material basis of psychoanalysis? It all seems like correlations and projections which while maybe real and true are guessed and iterated toward. I think Rev Left might have had a pod on the topic a while ago, maybe. It has been years since I’ve listened to Rev Left, but I remember them being pretty anti psychology due to a host’s bad personal experiences. They kinda failed to make the connection that capitalism kinda forces the field into directions and treatments that aren’t always best or most useful, and doubled down on their own personal experience. Again, its been awhile since I’ve listened and it may have changed, but the outright immediate dismissal of a science as essentially bad always sat poorly with me. Materially, as someone that works in the field, its pretty blatant that most “mental illness” diagnoses are exacerbated or caused by bad material conditions, poverty and alienation. Clinical depression and anxiety are basically “what does alienation do to a person physically and mentally?”. I might be biased due to working in the field, but its also the easiest method for Agitating and a ton of therapy is just pointing out contradictions and helping people resolve them. Anecdotally, it has moved a significant chunk of my clients from complete political apathy to “hey yeah what is up with our societal and cultural contradictions?”. Unfortunately, I’m in a rural area so there’s no real left organizing to point people to as everything “left” in NA is mostly Urban focused if even coherent at all. Rhugor has issued a correction as of 17:05 on Nov 17, 2022 |
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Nov 17, 2022 16:58
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MLSM posted:zizek is like Sam Harris : he uses scientific and rationalist language/terms to prop up western capitalism against any opposition to it pseud poo poo OP
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Nov 17, 2022 16:59
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Tempora Mutantur posted:you all are expecting an awful lot from a raccoon that a witch turned into a human his most meaningful and interesting work is still sublime object of ontology, but some of his more popular recent works are fine too. don’t go expecting too much in depth analysis tho, SOO is a legitimately challenging work but he’s never quite reached that same level since
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Nov 17, 2022 17:01
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 06:38 |
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it is worth noting that a lot of modern psychology (cognitive behaviour therapy being one notable example) is anti-dialectical in practice, in that it prescribes an effectively self-objectifying approach which it is not obviously possible to reconcile with any phenomenological idea of the self and good faith, i.e. dialectical rationality - basically, i exist in the world, and i perceive the world as meaningfully separate from myself and myself in it - what is *me* is what manipulates and interacts with the world. what cognitive behaviour therapy asks you to do is to distance yourself from yourself and start acting upon yourself as a piece of machinery, an object to be manipulated. however, the consciousness cannot simply distance - or alienate - itself from itself, and so you're left in a very weird position where you're telling people to do something fundamentally irrational and impossible because the attempt seems to have certain effects on the world. psychoanalysis doesn't run into the same issues, because it uses or is easily adapted to dialectical reasoning itself.
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Nov 17, 2022 17:04
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