|
What is the most powerful flying bug? This poll is closed. |
|||
|---|---|---|---|
| 🦋 |
|
15 | 3.71% |
| 🦇 |
|
115 | 28.47% |
| 🪰 |
|
12 | 2.97% |
| 🐦 |
|
67 | 16.58% |
| dragonfly |
|
94 | 23.27% |
| 🦟 |
|
14 | 3.47% |
| 🐝 |
|
87 | 21.53% |
| Total: | 404 votes | ||
|
euphronius posted:I missed that news item. Was that last week or? Ardennes posted:Yeah, its in the thread, I guess go back 20-30 pages?
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 08:44 |
|
|
i found an article https://www.reuters.com/world/russian-us-officials-holding-talks-turkey-kommersant-2022-11-14/ If that is what you are referring to, that seems like good news as they are negotiating an end to the war.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:10
|
|
|
Donrf posted:Let's see how Donbass Verdun ends up near Avdiivka. Without it, further offensive plans in Donbass will not take off. So there will be no water and a horrible winter. And a frozen conflict won't help either, unless the goal is to freeze Donetsk.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:12
|
|
|
my guess is the ramped up infra strikes right on the heels of G20 is Russia's last big attempt to spur favorable negotiations before things get frozen both literally and figuratively. It's all guesswork, but one possibility is that the main western backers are ready to wrap this up. US was projecting that maybe Kherson was the last big thing they needed to start negotiations. And maybe Russia's trying to ramp up the pressure to force their hand, because it seems like the backers are ready to ramp down but Zelenskyy isn't.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:14
|
|
|
Yeah the Wests reaction to Zelensky bombing Poland seems to me to be evidence they are sick of his poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:17
|
|
|
speng31b posted:the backers are ready to ramp down but Zelenskyy isn't. He can't continue the war, or at this point even a functioning Ukrainian state, without them. So, Russia working and angle with them makes sense, but at the same time continued Ukrainian battlefield successes keep them in the game and weakens Russia's negotiating position. It seems to have created a situation where Ukraine's only path is to attack whenever and wherever possible.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:18
|
|
|
https://twitch.tv/russiangas1
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:19
|
|
|
Lostconfused posted:Don't have to go back that far. Everything that happened around G20 two days ago can be used to suggest that negotiations didn't manage to achieve anything. Remember, that missile hit Poland and this thread was nuts for like 48 hours. ----- As far as Zelensky, he may be a bit annoying to the West, but he really isn't the issue. His rhetoric can be dumped. It is that there honestly has been no resolution to this thing, and that Russia can't really negotiate without getting its basic demands (specifically NATO membership/armament), and honestly this war will probably go on until some other outside factor forces a resolution. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 15:29 on Nov 18, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:24
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Eh, I would say the damage being done and could be done is less about distracting the Ukrainians, and more simply destroying the Ukrainian economy and significantly hampering their ability to fight. Ukrainian forces will not disappear but the collapse of the grid and mass evacuations will have a cumulative effect across Ukrainian society; Ukrainian transport needs power and as supply lines get hit, it will have a military effect. If the russians think the us is going to turn off the money hose they're crazy. this whole thing has been the best thing to happen to us weapons manufacturers in years and profits for oil companies are through the roof. These psychos will keep pushing as long as they can, no matter the cost. I bet ukraine wishes they had gotten their interconnection to the continental european electric grid finished, though. I guess they would need to build a bunch of substations and high-voltage transmission lines to get enough power to keep the lights on and right now is probably not a good time for them to do 10s of millions of dollars worth of infrastructure projects
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:24
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Remember, that missile hit Poland and this thread was nuts for like 48 hours. That's how you know nobody here reads Russian posts, there wasn't a single kurwa in the thread that whole time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:26
|
|
|
Lostconfused posted:Don't have to go back that far. Everything that happened around G20 two days ago can be used to suggest that negotiations didn't manage to achieve anything. I think it was your post Lostconfused posted:You can see whatever you want when looking at tealeaves.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:26
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Remember, that missile hit Poland and this thread was nuts for like 48 hours. Reddit was wild. It's totally disappeared from their collective memory. We can talk about normie lib amnesia but it's uncanny every time it happens.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:27
|
|
|
bombing the ukrainian power grid into submission without a big change in the ground war isn't going to do anything but freeze a bunch of civilians and cause misery like any nation experiencing strategic bombing, the civilians will blame the bombers not demand their government negotiate. weapons are flowing freely, [empty] promises of rebuilding money, and the army is making sizeable gains on the ground that were previously thought impossible . . . ukraine is obviously not going to negotiate since from their perspective, victory is in sight even if distant. the russian bombing campaign is pointless cruelty, there isnt an effective plan to use that bombing campaign to improve russia's position
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:29
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Reddit was wild. this was definitely the fastest memory holing saga i can remember. the funny part was that while most people just pretended it never happened there were a few nafos breaking rank like "wtf how can I choose between Zelenskyy and NATO?"
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:30
|
|
|
i say swears online posted:
meeting all my non-political bros to discuss the future of our children at the 
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:30
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Reddit was wild. reddit is a giant propaganda apparatus. every news subreddit is studded with bots to upvote and promote comments/posts that push the american agenda. it's operation mockingbird for web 2.0
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:32
|
|
|
OctaMurk posted:bombing the ukrainian power grid into submission without a big change in the ground war isn't going to do anything but freeze a bunch of civilians and cause misery Why do you assume the people getting bombed wouldn't want the bombing to stop via negotiations? That sounds pretty loving stupid.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:33
|
|
|
Hatebag posted:If the russians think the us is going to turn off the money hose they're crazy. this whole thing has been the best thing to happen to us weapons manufacturers in years and profits for oil companies are through the roof. These psychos will keep pushing as long as they can, no matter the cost. I agree the US will not stop, it is more how much structurally Ukraine can take. Another thing is that the US is only partially funding the Ukrainians and fiscally speaking they are in pretty dire straights. This may seem like a minor thing but the US has historically has been rather "cold" when it comes to fully bailing out countries. Lostconfused posted:That's how you know nobody here reads Russian posts, there wasn't a single kurwa in the thread that whole time. Eh...maybe they just politely ignored that 2000s era meme
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:33
|
|
|
OctaMurk posted:bombing the ukrainian power grid into submission without a big change in the ground war isn't going to do anything but freeze a bunch of civilians and cause misery generally i think this is correct, but it depends on if they keep the grid down into the hard winter months or if they back off if it becomes clear it's not forcing negotiations. what they're doing up to now can still be seen as trying to force Ukraine and the western backers to the table, but at some point real soon that may change
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:34
|
|
|
dire straights are getting people killed we need more gay optimism
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:35
|
|
|
Thee is also the very real possibility that power grid repair equipment (ubiquitous, comparably affordable, has one purpose) outlasts Russian willingness to expend precision munitions (slow to build, expensive, needed for multiple contingencies)
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:36
|
|
|
speng31b posted:I think it was your post Yeah but euphronius keeps getting mad telegram posts so I didn't feel like reposting it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:37
|
|
|
mags posted:dire straights are getting people killed we need more gay optimism Then came the churches, then came the schools Then came the lawyers, then came the rules Then came the trains and the trucks with their loads And the dirty old track was the Telegraph Road Then came the mines, then came the ore, Then there was the hard times, then there was a war
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:37
|
|
|
Organ Fiend posted:Eagerly awaiting the maple leaf to join the swastika, wolfsangle, and sonnonrad on the list of hate symbols.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:39
|
|
|
Bombing itself won't achieve that much but slowly crushing the Ukrainian ecomomy and forcing its population to abandon more and more cities will have a material effect. If they think the Ukrainians will just give it, it isn't going to happen, but I also very much doubt it wouldn't have an effect on the front lines. That said, it is still possible for the Russians to decimate their enemy and their supply lines but not engage out of fear of escalation and political repercussions from casualties. ---- Also, the Russians have been taking out more than transformers and other replaceable equipment and it does seem more and more power stations themselves are off line. It is that there are enough stations left to keep feeding the system, but it is getting weaker. lobster shirt posted:there are numerous examples of the effects of strategic bombing on civilian morale and it invariably just makes people extremely angry at the country carrying out the bombing. its not really a stretch to say that strategic bombing, absent any ground offensive to capitalize on it, is effectively punishment of civilians. You could still spin it as a negotiating tactic, it is just one that probably won't have much an effect. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 15:49 on Nov 18, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:40
|
|
|
Killin_Like_Bronson posted:Why do you assume the people getting bombed wouldn't want the bombing to stop via negotiations? That sounds pretty loving stupid. there are numerous examples of the effects of strategic bombing on civilian morale and it invariably just makes people extremely angry at the country carrying out the bombing. its not really a stretch to say that strategic bombing, absent any ground offensive to capitalize on it, is effectively punishment of civilians.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:46
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:I agree the US will not stop, it is more how much structurally Ukraine can take. Another thing is that the US is only partially funding the Ukrainians and fiscally speaking they are in pretty dire straights. This may seem like a minor thing but the US has historically has been rather "cold" when it comes to fully bailing out countries. That's true. the us and nato are going to want ukraine to repay the hundreds of billions of dollars spent, probably with a loan structure that doubles or triples the amount spent. but ukraine needs to have a semi-functional economy in order to do that, which requires semi-functional infrastructure. Regardless of the outcome of the war it's going to be a very hosed up place for at least a generation
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:52
|
|
|
lobster shirt posted:there are numerous examples of the effects of strategic bombing on civilian morale and it invariably just makes people extremely angry at the country carrying out the bombing. its not really a stretch to say that strategic bombing, absent any ground offensive to capitalize on it, is effectively punishment of civilians. Well yah I don't imagine the civilians suffering loss of infrastructure and lives would be anything but upset at Russia while wanting some form of vengeance. I would also expect that if an off ramp of it all ending was voted on by civilians that the ones being bombed would be more inclined to accept it than populations not being bombed within ukraine. While this war goes on it will just add to misery and suffering and eventually a piece of paper will be signed to end it and I just impotently want that to happen. My understanding that both sides' leaders have internal justifications to continue the mess at the cost of the people continues to make me irrationally angry.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:54
|
|
|
you have to keep firing when you are negotiating a cease fire. this is von Clausewitz 101
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:56
|
|
|
Killin_Like_Bronson posted:I would also expect that if an off ramp of it all ending was voted on by civilians that the ones being bombed would be more inclined to accept it than populations not being bombed This is the common and usually incorrect argument made by military powers who choose to bomb civilians and hope it causes a sea change in the war.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:58
|
|
|
euphronius posted:this is von Clausewitz 101 decent thread title
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 15:59
|
|
|
Killin_Like_Bronson posted:Well yah I don't imagine the civilians suffering loss of infrastructure and lives would be anything but upset at Russia while wanting some form of vengeance. I would also expect that if an off ramp of it all ending was voted on by civilians that the ones being bombed would be more inclined to accept it than populations not being bombed within ukraine. Up until recently at least, the civilians closer to the fighting were the more likely to want a quick negotiated cessation of hostilities. Those further away were more willing to keep the blood flowing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 16:00
|
|
|
mlmp08 posted:This is the common and usually incorrect argument made by military powers who choose to bomb civilians and hope it causes a sea change in the war. Have the civilians ever had the power to get their government to the negotiating table to end their misery? Or are the civilians wholey dependent on their government looking out for their lives in a metric vs the governments goals which may not include the safety of civilians en mass? Which civilians chose to continue war and how was that choice voiced?
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 16:14
|
|
|
Corky Romanovsky posted:Up until recently at least, the civilians closer to the fighting were the more likely to want a quick negotiated cessation of hostilities. Those further away were more willing to keep the blood flowing. Sounds great for everyone living in Lviv.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 16:14
|
|
|
Also this whole argument about civilians is pointless since obviously neither government is doing what civilians want and their opinions don't matter.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 16:15
|
|
|
mlmp08 posted:The thinker’s attacks on civilians in winter then. I hope they don’t come to a real-politic rational decision that they must mass punish civilians, then, as an unemotional Russian response to having failed to achieve their regime change objectives. lookit the fuckin' arbiter of rationality over here
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 16:16
|
|
|
Killin_Like_Bronson posted:Well yah I don't imagine the civilians suffering loss of infrastructure and lives would be anything but upset at Russia while wanting some form of vengeance. I would also expect that if an off ramp of it all ending was voted on by civilians that the ones being bombed would be more inclined to accept it than populations not being bombed within ukraine. these two sentences seem contradictory to me. if they want vengeance, they don't want a negotiated settlement to the war -- they want to win the war, defeat and punish the people who have inflicted such misery on them. however, at any rate, Lostconfused posted:Also this whole argument about civilians is pointless since obviously neither government is doing what civilians want and their opinions don't matter.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 16:18
|
|
|
Lostconfused posted:Also this whole argument about civilians is pointless since obviously neither government is doing what civilians want and their opinions don't matter. Eh, I think it's worth discussing that Russia has changed tactics on a much larger scale to target civilians with conventional arms using using their strategic air air and naval power. And if civilians en masse stop supporting a government, that tends to work poorly for that government.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 16:19
|
|
|
What is your evidence that they are targeting civilians?
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 16:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 08:44 |
|
|
euphronius posted:What is your evidence that they are targeting civilians? I don't have time for you to pretend you are this uninformed today. This is a stupid tactic to take, come on.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 16:20
|
|