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What is the most powerful flying bug? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| 🦋 |
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15 | 3.71% |
| 🦇 |
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115 | 28.47% |
| 🪰 |
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12 | 2.97% |
| 🐦 |
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67 | 16.58% |
| dragonfly |
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94 | 23.27% |
| 🦟 |
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14 | 3.47% |
| 🐝 |
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87 | 21.53% |
| Total: | 404 votes | ||
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please respect mlmp08's time
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Nov 18, 2022 16:21
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| # ? May 24, 2024 22:13 |
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mlmp08 posted:I don't have time for you to pretend you are this uninformed today. This is a stupid tactic to take, come on. so you have no evidence of civilians being targeted other than ?? inference from what your suppose Russian motives to be ?
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Nov 18, 2022 16:22
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targeting civilians can be a major war crime . I just want to see what your evidence is . jeez
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Nov 18, 2022 16:23
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Lostconfused posted:Also this whole argument about civilians is pointless since obviously neither government is doing what civilians want and their opinions don't matter. exactly, so targeting energy infrastructure is only useful insofar as russia can either capitalize on it militarily or extract some concessions from the ukrainian state in negotiations. if it turns out they're doing neither of those things, smashing energy infrastructure in the hard winter months ahead would definitely be some war crimes
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Nov 18, 2022 16:23
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euphronius posted:so you have no evidence of civilians being targeted other than ?? inference from what your suppose Russian motives to be ? Are you really going to play the denial of basic reality game here? This is exceptionally stupid, even for your posting.
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Nov 18, 2022 16:23
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Don't start something you can't finish. You'd think someone criticizing Putin would already know. 
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Nov 18, 2022 16:24
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mlmp08 posted:Are you really going to play the denial of basic reality game here? This is exceptionally stupid, even for your posting. ?? you are claiming Russia is targeting civilians? you must have some evidence at hand ?
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Nov 18, 2022 16:25
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speng31b posted:exactly, so targeting energy infrastructure is only useful insofar as russia can either capitalize on it militarily or extract some concessions from the ukrainian state in negotiations. if it turns out they're doing neither of those things, smashing energy infrastructure in the hard winter months ahead would definitely be some war crimes All war is crime 
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Nov 18, 2022 16:25
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It is for sure not Russia's primary motivation in its current 'wreck substations' strat, but is a possible factor that they want to shift the nature of aid? They aren't knocking out the grid, but they're doing damage which requires specific parts and labour to repair, and unlike bombing tanks and guns along the front line the supply of those is detached from the US MIC... every trainload of transformers and electrical cabling from Europe is a trainload that doesnt reap mad profits for Lockheed, if you've correctly analyzed that maximizing those profits is the reason for current aid to Ukraine, perhaps pushing up the share of the money given to electric grid parts vs armaments shifts the balance so war is less profitable to the weapons manufacturers than the rebuild/rearm wave that will happen for the Ukrainian military in the wake of peace?
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Nov 18, 2022 16:25
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Lostconfused posted:All war is crime well, some technical UN definition of war crimes.
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Nov 18, 2022 16:26
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I can conceive of a just war but Russia ans Ukraine are not fighting it just as in non criminal
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Nov 18, 2022 16:26
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euphronius posted:?? gently caress off, dipshit
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Nov 18, 2022 16:27
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so you have no evidence other than your inference of motives which is what i thought
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Nov 18, 2022 16:28
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mlmp08 posted:gently caress off, dipshit considering you are consistently one of the most annnoyingly pedantic posters here who will misread the diction of a single word to support multipage derails noone wants to read, you should be able to engage with euphronius on this specific nitpicky point about whether targeting infrastructure is identical to targeting civilians without melting down
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Nov 18, 2022 16:29
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and I use “inference “ there as charitably as possible which is big of me considering the rudeness with which I am confronted.
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Nov 18, 2022 16:30
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speng31b posted:considering you are consistently one of the most annnoyingly pedantic posters here who will misread the diction of a single word to support multipage derails noone wants to read, you should be able to engage with euphronius on this specific nitpicky point about whether targeting infrastructure is identical to targeting civilians without melting down No, I am engaging with exactly as much respect as euphonious deserves. He's being really, really loving dumb with his claim that Russia does not target civilians "gently caress off, disphit" is a perfectly reasonable response. E: I'm operating under the basic words as used by ICRC. I'm not inventing some special purpose turn of phrase or my own bespoke definition. That's why I've no desire to engage euphonious in whatever very loving stupid denial he's engaging in. mlmp08 has issued a correction as of 16:33 on Nov 18, 2022 |
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Nov 18, 2022 16:30
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Frosted Flake posted:Hard to get a government to capitulate - succeed at their regime change objectives - without doing so. It's a policy guided by making the most effective use of Russian blood and treasure. Awful, yes, but it follows the same logic as any strategic bombing campaign. The Ukrainian military uses the same electrical infrastructure, and while they will be the least harmed, it is a way to damage them while safeguarding Russian forces. strategic bombings, like sanctions, are a failed paradigm. they don't actually lead to regime change. they just inflict massive suffering on the population and turn them towards the regime, rather than away from it.
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Nov 18, 2022 16:32
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To be clear, that also means the US in every one of its modern was targeting civilians just to be clear.
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Nov 18, 2022 16:33
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Lostconfused posted:All war is crime
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Nov 18, 2022 16:33
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Ardennes posted:To be clear, that also means the US in every one of its modern was targeting civilians just to be clear. yep
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Nov 18, 2022 16:34
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Ardennes posted:To be clear, that also means the US in every one of its modern was targeting civilians just to be clear. No doubt
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Nov 18, 2022 16:34
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Ardennes posted:To be clear, that also means the US in every one of its modern was targeting civilians just to be clear. they were
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Nov 18, 2022 16:34
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Ardennes posted:To be clear, that also means the US in every one of its modern was targeting civilians just to be clear. ya obviously
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Nov 18, 2022 16:35
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:You don't get an opinion from the high ground.
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Nov 18, 2022 16:35
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4 responses in a row in 2 minutes Anyway, strategic bombing can yield results on the battlefield but it can’t do so in isolation. As far as war crimes, I don’t know how much they are affected by result, since the Russians obviously are still in this war even if it is they are keeping people guessing about exactly what they are going with this thing (also it seems like targets are pretty carefully chosen as pressure points makes it seem more like negotiating tactic. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 16:40 on Nov 18, 2022 |
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Nov 18, 2022 16:37
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speng31b posted:considering you are consistently one of the most annnoyingly pedantic posters here who will misread the diction of a single word to support multipage derails noone wants to read, you should be able to engage with euphronius on this specific nitpicky point about whether targeting infrastructure is identical to targeting civilians without melting down
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Nov 18, 2022 16:38
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OctaMurk posted:bombing the ukrainian power grid into submission without a big change in the ground war isn't going to do anything but freeze a bunch of civilians and cause misery Their position at playing tiddlywinks or their position in a land war in asia?
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Nov 18, 2022 16:38
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euphronius posted:so you have no evidence of civilians being targeted other than ?? inference from what your suppose Russian motives to be ? This very much depends on how specific you wanna get but "targeting civilians" isnt an entitely unreasonable shorthand for "targeting civilian infrastructure and also incidentally killing civilians" in the context of strategic bombing
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Nov 18, 2022 16:44
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StashAugustine posted:This very much depends on how specific you wanna get but "targeting civilians" isnt an entitely unreasonable shorthand for "targeting civilian infrastructure and also incidentally killing civilians" in the context of strategic bombing as pointed out above that distinction is the one the pentagon/nato makes routinely and dogmatically
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Nov 18, 2022 16:45
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euphronius posted:as pointed out above that distinction is the one the pentagon/nato makes routinely and dogmatically yeah and no one itt buys their bullshit
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Nov 18, 2022 16:46
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euphronius posted:targeting civilians can be a major war crime . I just want to see what your evidence is . jeez corporations are people under US law so by blowing up corporate owned energy infrastructure Russia is doing a pogrom on electro-Ukrainians
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Nov 18, 2022 16:47
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mlmp08 posted:"gently caress off, disphit" is a perfectly reasonable response. not so much fun from the other side huh dipshit
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Nov 18, 2022 16:50
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Ardennes posted:also it seems like targets are pretty carefully chosen as pressure points makes it seem more like negotiating tactic. yeah, that's my feeling too. we're debating hypotheticals here because russia hasn't done much but target easily repairable substations, etc. it's clearly a pressure tactic for negotiation purposes at this point in time.
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Nov 18, 2022 16:50
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Going by this technical definition, is there any war in modern history that does not involve "targeting civilians"? Or has liberalism rendered yet another word to describe atrocity meaningless?
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Nov 18, 2022 16:56
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Going by this technical definition, is there any war in modern history that does not involve "targeting civilians"? Or has liberalism rendered yet another word to describe atrocity meaningless? Lostconfused posted:All war is crime euphronius posted:I can conceive of a just war but Russia ans Ukraine are not fighting it e: even by the technical definition all wars are criminal, but hypothetically a non criminal war could be fought to immiserate a civilian population in horrifying ways too. the legal definitions have some value but are obviously very flawed. speng31b has issued a correction as of 17:08 on Nov 18, 2022 |
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Nov 18, 2022 16:58
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Going by this technical definition, is there any war in modern history that does not involve "targeting civilians"? Or has liberalism rendered yet another word to describe atrocity meaningless? go back further than that, premodern war had a whole fuckin lot of starvation involved. its almost like war is all hell or something
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Nov 18, 2022 16:59
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euphronius posted:as pointed out above that distinction is the one the pentagon/nato makes routinely and dogmatically yes and they are wrong to do so
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Nov 18, 2022 17:01
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Going by this technical definition, is there any war in modern history that does not involve "targeting civilians"? Or has liberalism rendered yet another word to describe atrocity meaningless? Probably not, but that's where the ICRC acknowledges that civilians may end up targeted or in a targeted area without it being a war crime. Examples: -A naval headquarters has 500 military members planning wartime operations and commanding forces. They also have 10 civilian janitors and a couple civilian barbers, and civilians who help plan the war, and civilians who help run security of the base. Blowing that up will kill civilians, but the target was the military HQs and it was for a military purpose. ICRC won't call that a war crime. -A city built a civic bridge with civilian taxpayer money and it's open to public transit. That bridge is now being used to flow in tanks to attack. The defender blows up the bridge to stop the incoming tanks. They blew up a civil piece of infrastructure, but it was for a military purpose and was not a war crime. -A power plant powers a military radar site directly. The attacking military wants to shut down the radar site, but can't target it effectively, so they blow up the civil power transformers that supply power, and there's risk that it could hit a civilian if they happen to be servicing that area at the time. targets civil infrastructure, but for specific military advantage, likely not a war crime. Other examples: Blowing up a dam will flood 1,000 enemy troops and a city of 1 million civilians. War Crime. Blowing up a power plant will cut power to a company of truck drivers doing routine training, but will also cut power to 1 million civilians and hospitals. Likely war crime. 4,000 civilians are fleeing across a bridge trying to escape conflict, and the estimate is that they'll all be gone in 12 hours. The commander decides to strike immediately anyway to prevent the chance that maybe the enemy might use the bridge, but has no specific intel that this must be done to stop from losing the war. War crime.
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Nov 18, 2022 17:04
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there's a use in distinguishing like Allied """dehousing""" from the deliberate genocide of the Nazis, but the Russians aren't trying to outright exterminate Ukrainians and the Americans are deluding themselves into thinking you can fight a clean war
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Nov 18, 2022 17:04
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| # ? May 24, 2024 22:13 |
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Orc shamans performed a ritual to summon the freezing winds of the North upon Ukraine. Its despicable
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Nov 18, 2022 17:05
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