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Erg posted:I think people are talking about earlier when he was telling people to print out their last 50 pages of code I missed this back at the end of October. Thanks for adding it! quote:engineers were asked to print out their recent code contributions from the last 30 to 60 days and bring them to be reviewed by Musk and Tesla engineers. They were then quickly told to shred their print outs and show the code on their computers instead An honest-to-god request in 2022 from the CEO of a tech company just purchased for $44 billion. He's a very intelligent man, some tell me the most brilliant, maybe.
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Nov 20, 2022 19:28
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bob dobbs is dead posted:ive watched the 20-peeps-in-a-room to 150-peeps-over-multiple-offices transition like... 6 or 7 times from the inside, 40, 50 times from the outside now and it deffo is subject to a lotta nostalgia from c-levels, because 20-to-40-peeps-in-a-room is the last time the c-levels feel like they have total control over an org. C-level nostalgia is the best explanation I've ever heard for the phenomena. Thanks!
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Nov 20, 2022 20:07
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Ah yes, the managers that can find the time to contribute to coding when sitting in 40 hours of zoom calls a week, plus doing code reviews, plus planning, refinement, and every other "ceremony" under the sun
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Nov 20, 2022 20:33
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Peggle Fever posted:Ah yes, the managers that can find the time to contribute to coding when sitting in 40 hours of zoom calls a week, plus doing code reviews, plus planning, refinement, and every other "ceremony" under the sun Bonus! They will now have 20 reports each. I'm not kidding.
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Nov 20, 2022 20:47
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That was another funny wrinkle in the Twitter fiasco. When Elon demanded everybody come back to the office and most people went "nah", he amended it to say you can still work remotely if your manager checks up on you and verifies you're contributing at an exceptional level. And each manager had more than a dozen direct reports.
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Nov 20, 2022 21:29
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Furthermore, the managers were staking their jobs on those employees being excellent; if somebody decides Fred isn't excellent, their manager goes too.
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Nov 20, 2022 22:22
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Before the "oops 75% of the company took severance" the engineer to manager ratio was supposedly 70:1.
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Nov 20, 2022 22:50
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Plorkyeran posted:Before the "oops 75% of the company took severance" the engineer to manager ratio was supposedly 70:1. That can't possibly be true. That would mean each manager has 70 direct reports, at minimum. Realistically, it would be higher than that because some managers manage managers. Plus there's product and project managers, etc. We're they counting managers of engineers as engineers?
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Nov 20, 2022 22:58
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Peggle Fever posted:40 hours of zoom calls a week
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Nov 20, 2022 23:31
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LLSix posted:That can't possibly be true. That would mean each manager has 70 direct reports, at minimum.
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Nov 21, 2022 01:50
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I got a job offer and the new role looks cool and like it would be good for my career and personal development...but it's a substantial TC cut. (Specifically, it's a slight salary cut and a conversion of my annual bonus, which is finance-tier, into not very many startup scratchers.) How do people make this decision?
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Nov 21, 2022 03:42
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that wouldn't even be a decision for me. hard no thank you
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Nov 21, 2022 03:47
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If it's a transition from unhappy to happy then I'd take it. (Not sure what "personal development" means here.)
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Nov 21, 2022 04:02
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pokeyman posted:If it's a transition from unhappy to happy then I'd take it. (Not sure what "personal development" means here.) My current job is fine for coasting, but the long-term prospects are not good for two reasons. The first is that we're clearly considered an unfortunate cost center and management wants to get rid of us. I don't think this is wise, and they might not succeed, but I know that at best the stress of the politics will degrade my mental health. The second reason is that I'm not really learning (and will never learn) some things that I'd like to learn and would look good on my resume. I'm not unhappy, exactly, but I know it's not a good long-term home. The new role wouldn't have these problems. (I'm not saying it has no problems, but it wouldn't have those.)
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Nov 21, 2022 04:10
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How much time have you spent looking? I'd keep hunting for now; no need to spring for the first vaguely-acceptable job you find. TC cut is bad not just for the short-term but also your long-term prospects, since it can anchor your future expectations of what you're worth and make you worse at negotiating.
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Nov 21, 2022 04:43
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What’s the point of working in an overpaid industry if you can’t sacrifice some money for happiness?
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Nov 21, 2022 04:47
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lifg posted:What’s the point of working in an overpaid industry if you can’t sacrifice some money for happiness? read closer, they didnt mention their drat happiness
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Nov 21, 2022 04:52
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A long time ago, I took 20% TC cuts to go from a dead end tech area to a growing one (solo FPGA design to team microcontroller code), and I think it worked out well for me, but if I had it to do all over again I might have done one of the following: - Looked more into what I would have needed to do to stick in my technical area. (ie what would it have taken to get into NVIDIA or something) - Spent less time searching for a job and more time growing the skills it turns out I would have needed - Tried to work the skills I wanted into the job I had - Tried harder to ignore the dumb and insulting decisions happening at the company I wanted to leave
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Nov 21, 2022 04:53
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lifg posted:What’s the point of working in an overpaid industry if you can’t sacrifice some money for happiness? in my experience, there's no virtue to working a lower paid job, and the people that talk them up are suffering from "grass is greener syndrome". the dev jobs that pay the most are also easier and less stressful day-to-day - if a workplace is willing to pay you a lot of money, it's less likely to dick you around or waste your time, and if you can't be replaced easily, the project managers are just going to have to deal with your timeline on when poo poo will get done. before the whole remote work thing you used to be able to get away with saying "I don't want to commute an hour to x job etc" and have that be fine, but with remote work there's little reason not to chase the figgies.
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Nov 21, 2022 04:55
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raminasi posted:My current job is fine for coasting, but the long-term prospects are not good for two reasons. The first is that we're clearly considered an unfortunate cost center and management wants to get rid of us. I don't think this is wise, and they might not succeed, but I know that at best the stress of the politics will degrade my mental health. The second reason is that I'm not really learning (and will never learn) some things that I'd like to learn and would look good on my resume. I'm not unhappy, exactly, but I know it's not a good long-term home. The new role wouldn't have these problems. (I'm not saying it has no problems, but it wouldn't have those.) Right on, wanted to make sure it wasn't a "I'm actually kinda miserable but oh god the pay cut" situation  I agree withTooMuchAbstraction posted:How much time have you spent looking? I'd keep hunting for now; no need to spring for the first vaguely-acceptable job you find.
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Nov 21, 2022 04:58
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StumblyWumbly posted:- Tried harder to ignore the dumb and insulting decisions happening at the company I wanted to leave What sort of decisions were these that were dumb and insulting but should be ignored rather than having an effect on your future?
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Nov 21, 2022 05:33
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:in my experience, there's no virtue to working a lower paid job, and the people that talk them up are suffering from "grass is greener syndrome". the dev jobs that pay the most are also easier and less stressful day-to-day - if a workplace is willing to pay you a lot of money, it's less likely to dick you around or waste your time, and if you can't be replaced easily, the project managers are just going to have to deal with your timeline on when poo poo will get done. before the whole remote work thing you used to be able to get away with saying "I don't want to commute an hour to x job etc" and have that be fine, but with remote work there's little reason not to chase the figgies. Your experience of being well paid and treated well sounds pleasant, but mine has been muuuuch different. Not all workplaces are equal-but-for-the-money, there are definitely quality of life and quality of career issues. If someone’s at the point of interviewing, that’s a sign it’s time to leave soon. (I mean, I don’t know how money we’re talking about, and there are a lot of other factors.)
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Nov 21, 2022 05:35
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Thanks for all the comments! To respond to some individual points:TooMuchAbstraction posted:How much time have you spent looking? I'd keep hunting for now; no need to spring for the first vaguely-acceptable job you find. TC cut is bad not just for the short-term but also your long-term prospects, since it can anchor your future expectations of what you're worth and make you worse at negotiating. Not too long, I can justify spending longer. But I'd consider this offer better than vaguely-acceptable - for one, I already know the guy who'd be managing me, and I like him, which is great. Point taken about the long-term comp stuff though. It's worth mentioning that I'm really, really skeptical of being able to get offers from the kinds of places I want to try working at (other than this one) because they all seem to be leetcode gauntlet shops. I'm really, really, really bad at those, and failure throws me into a depressive spiral. It's not necessarily insurmountable, but "just practice more" doesn't seem to cut it and there's a very real mental health cost to trying. StumblyWumbly posted:A long time ago, I took 20% TC cuts to go from a dead end tech area to a growing one (solo FPGA design to team microcontroller code), and I think it worked out well for me, but if I had it to do all over again I might have done one of the following: Unfortunately, the things I want to learn can't really be self-taught or crammed into my existing workflow, because they're basically questions of scale. My job right now, to be frank, is pretty rinky-dink, and I can't just manufacture bigger problems to work on. Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:in my experience, there's no virtue to working a lower paid job, and the people that talk them up are suffering from "grass is greener syndrome". the dev jobs that pay the most are also easier and less stressful day-to-day - if a workplace is willing to pay you a lot of money, it's less likely to dick you around or waste your time, and if you can't be replaced easily, the project managers are just going to have to deal with your timeline on when poo poo will get done. before the whole remote work thing you used to be able to get away with saying "I don't want to commute an hour to x job etc" and have that be fine, but with remote work there's little reason not to chase the figgies. My current well-paid job is easy and not stressful, but my group's attitude of telling management to just deal with our timeline is what got a fifth of us fired a few months ago, and management's communication on the topic has made it pretty clear that they'd love to get rid of the rest of us. They can't do it soon - the people who got fired were actually doing a ton of work, as is now becoming clear to the decision-makers - but it's a bad dynamic.
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Nov 21, 2022 06:17
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Unless you are absolutely miserable never take a pay cut.
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Nov 21, 2022 10:58
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:the dev jobs that pay the most are also easier and less stressful day-to-day - if a workplace is willing to pay you a lot of money, it's less likely to dick you around or waste your time, I do not get that impression from quant jobs, you get paid because they do dick you around.
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Nov 21, 2022 14:31
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I'm assuming that the sudden addition of thousands of engineers into the job market is going to make the "don't take a pay cut" a lot more difficult to achieve. Unless things are so ridiculously tight still, it would seem likely there'd be something of a race to the bottom. Unless folks want to unionize 
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Nov 21, 2022 16:24
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Cugel the Clever posted:I'm assuming that the sudden addition of thousands of engineers into the job market is going to make the "don't take a pay cut" a lot more difficult to achieve. Unless things are so ridiculously tight still, it would seem likely there'd be something of a race to the bottom. I wonder if it will make mid-tier compensation come up a bit. Those companies that have been drained over the last 5 years are still desperate for engineers, but their traditional pay structure is no stock, less perks, and like 1/3 TC.
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Nov 21, 2022 16:31
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Cugel the Clever posted:I'm assuming that the sudden addition of thousands of engineers into the job market is going to make the "don't take a pay cut" a lot more difficult to achieve. Unless things are so ridiculously tight still, it would seem likely there'd be something of a race to the bottom. keynes noted a century ago that management doesnt save on payroll by doing pay cuts, they fire peeps and the market stops clearing true a century ago, true in 2008, i bet it'll be true in 2022
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Nov 21, 2022 17:04
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Individual firms don't do pay cuts (in the short term) but the market absolutely adjusts to increased supply.
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Nov 21, 2022 17:08
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bob dobbs is dead posted:keynes noted a century ago that management doesnt save on payroll by doing pay cuts, they fire peeps and the market stops clearing
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Nov 21, 2022 17:33
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Oh, I should mention that they’d be letting me start in March (because I’ve made it clear that I’m not walking away from my existing 2022 bonus, which will be paid out mid-Feb.) Is the right move to accept, spend three months continuing to search for a better offer, and then withdraw if I find one?
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Nov 21, 2022 18:02
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Yes.
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Nov 21, 2022 18:05
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Crazyweasel posted:I wonder if it will make mid-tier compensation come up a bit. Those companies that have been drained over the last 5 years are still desperate for engineers, but their traditional pay structure is no stock, less perks, and like 1/3 TC. It may be an end of a bubble. Are these engineers actually any good at anything? Are their skills only for super-size cloud projects and completely non transferable to any other workplace? How many will move to "Web3"? That's another bubble waiting to burst.
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Nov 21, 2022 19:21
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Given what I’ve seen of super-size networking level project work, I’m happy to never touch that ever again.
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Nov 22, 2022 21:05
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MrMoo posted:It may be an end of a bubble. Are these engineers actually any good at anything? Are their skills only for super-size cloud projects and completely non transferable to any other workplace? How many will move to "Web3"? That's another bubble waiting to burst. Only engineers using my stack are ACTUALLY good
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Nov 23, 2022 14:51
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MrMoo posted:How many will move to "Web3"? That's another bubble waiting to burst. Waiting to burst? The 2nd largest exchange is going under and is taking dozens of companies down with it directly. Bitcoin is at its lowest point since 2017 and the worlds Governments are still in the process of writing up regulations. People will be going to jail over this. Anyone making a move into Web3 right now is suicidal.
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Nov 23, 2022 15:10
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That’s just another day for butt coins, it’s all the infrastructure people are trying to conjure above Ethereum, for presumably some level of stability. It’s not a far jump working for Zuckerberg then working for crypto. Both are not exactly shining beacons of ethics. awesomeolion posted:Only engineers using my stack are ACTUALLY good It’s all about being flexible to retrain and be humble on knowledge. Not usually a known trait of senior engineers. MrMoo fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Nov 23, 2022 |
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Nov 23, 2022 16:06
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Mega Comrade posted:Waiting to burst? The 2nd largest exchange is going under and is taking dozens of companies down with it directly. Bitcoin is at its lowest point since 2017 and the worlds Governments are still in the process of writing up regulations. People will be going to jail over this. no bro you don't understand blockchain is going to change the world, it has so many applications just bro please give it ten more years.
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Nov 23, 2022 23:33
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Crypto technology is maturing. You used to only hear of companies that lost all their coins through hacking. Now these companies are lasting long enough to lose all their coins through fraud.
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Nov 24, 2022 00:44
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lifg posted:Crypto technology is maturing. You used to only hear of companies that lost all their coins through hacking. Now these companies are lasting long enough to lose all their coins through fraud. I know you're being facetious but it's difficult to determine how much FTX lost through hacking and how much they lost through fraud as it's possible they were using "hacking" as a cover for fraud. They definitely did get hacked for at least hundreds of millions of dollars, so not really a good example of the technology maturing. It's a total dumpster fire all around.
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Nov 24, 2022 01:05
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