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basically there are three conflicting design priorities when it comes to F2P mmo boss design 1. straight DPS races where you don't have to think about mechanics at all are boring. the solution to this is to introduce mechanics you literally can't ignore, but if done naively, that leads to problem number 2 2. phases where the boss is invulnerable and you can't advance the win condition, only "avoid dying" or w/e, are boring (invuln is fine if there's something pro-active to do like gathering glowy bits or killing certain adds or something, but just "dodge for 10 seconds" is no bueno. never leave the player with only reactive options.) the solution to BOTH the above problems is do them at the same time. make the player dodge nasty attack patterns while dealing DPS and/or pursuing mandatory secondary objectives. this, however, runs into design constraint #3 3. F2P games almost inevitably power creep and power creep, past a certain point, almost inevitably enables/creates a subset of whales who disagree with point #1 and are willing to spend bajillions of dollars to opt out of having to actually play the game. this is often the most financially lucrative audience to chase, and the minute you start catering to them is the same moment you start hemorrhaging normal players who actually enjoy video games genshin isn't nearly as far down this self-destructive spiral as some stuff i've played (rip Dungeon Fighter Online) but there are hints of it here and there Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Nov 21, 2022 |
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Nov 21, 2022 23:00
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Tree Reformat posted:I'm not entirely sure why they designed a weekly boss where you can beat it perfectly well completely ignoring half its mechanics. This isn't the first time they've made a boss like this. You can knock Stormterror out of the sky with Ganyu, the Raiden Bot can be killed before they transform, and Boreas can also be killed before they transform if you have enough burst damage. https://imgur.com/aWZGNL6.mp4
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Nov 21, 2022 23:05
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I saw a video on the meme reddit that highlighted how almost all the "how to hu tao one shot bosses" videos are made by whales. That very good effortpost made me think of that.
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Nov 21, 2022 23:07
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the idea that Signora is something they needed to "correct for" -- whether that poster was correct or not -- is really bizarre to me because, like, she's one of the best bossfights in the game? i'm not a fan of the tornado mini-phase for hopefully obvious reasons but apart from that she's fantastic
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Nov 21, 2022 23:10
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:the idea that Signora is something they needed to "correct for" -- whether that poster was correct or not -- is really bizarre to me because, like, she's one of the best bossfights in the game? i'm not a fan of the tornado mini-phase for hopefully obvious reasons but apart from that she's fantastic I wouldn't complain if her heat version of Sheer Cold had a goulash equivalent I could use against it. Not til loving Natlan, I suppose.
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Nov 21, 2022 23:12
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signora sucks imo too much time chasing her around after random teleports and waiting for tornados to end
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Nov 21, 2022 23:13
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Signora needs to teleport less
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Nov 21, 2022 23:13
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oh, right, this is probably archer privilege speaking again lol what if we compromise and give the player a universal teleport of their own
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Nov 21, 2022 23:17
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then i still get to watch all my ningguang burst projectiles slam uselessly into a wall because she tped away halfway through the animation
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Nov 21, 2022 23:19
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:signora sucks imo
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Nov 21, 2022 23:20
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:the idea that Signora is something they needed to "correct for" -- whether that poster was correct or not -- is really bizarre to me because, like, she's one of the best bossfights in the game? i'm not a fan of the tornado mini-phase for hopefully obvious reasons but apart from that she's fantastic She doesn't stay in the same spot long enough for some teams to execute their combo then teleports and remains untouchable for sometimes unreasonable amount of time so your buffs may run out. The first phase is also just a boring punching bag.
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Nov 21, 2022 23:21
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Signora is a puzzle boss to make a comp that kills her while skipping the 45 seconds of offscreen tornado (she seems to do it at ~30% life). Ayato Zhongli Yelan Fischl does it smoothest for me. To me every boss is bad compared to the shogunbot boss which is just perfect, you get to use almost all the mechanics in the game. I was sad Scara was so different. No Wave fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Nov 21, 2022 |
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Nov 21, 2022 23:22
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:oh, right, this is probably archer privilege speaking again lol If I were using Fischl, Ganyu and Yelan I'd probably have no problem with how much she warps around, but I tend to use random friendship teams that're all trying their best with a couple powerful carries keeping them alive so it's a lot more annoying. Tuxedo Catfish posted:basically there are three conflicting design priorities when it comes to F2P mmo boss design I think there should be a 'savage' mode or something, so I can have them just pull out their final form immediately and not stop taking damage after a point. But these are just gripes that come with doing content 50+ times, it's not really a big deal at the end of the day
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Nov 21, 2022 23:30
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She also won't teleport to the middle until she finished her combo, so let her start one when she is at low hp https://i.imgur.com/XlJdtQO.mp4 If you held on some resources for the end she is not so bad, but not really interesting.
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Nov 21, 2022 23:37
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None of the bosses so far have been good enough to survive farming on a weekly basis for a year+ so I'm reluctant to praise any. Maybe because they do have higher difficulty than domains, there's less flexibility in how you can reasonably tackle them without pulling your hair out and they just get stale. e: Obviously this doesn't include Scara, who I haven't even progressed the story to do once. Just going to do my best to forget the weeks of lost mats.
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Nov 22, 2022 01:04
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no singleplayer encounter holds up forever unless it's extremely amenable to speedrunning / high score chasing / etc., which also requires a pretty specific mindset as a player and arguably, even as someone who loves doing that sort of thing, probably shouldn't be your first design priority
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Nov 22, 2022 01:09
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AParadox posted:She also won't teleport to the middle until she finished her combo, so let her start one when she is at low hp drat man that's a strong loving Fox
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Nov 22, 2022 01:10
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Ideally you could have repeatable bosses that are made of wet paper (Childe) that drop the highest tier of stuff, while still having versions that function better for showcases etc. Maybe add the event difficulty multiplier options when you're entering the boss domain.
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Nov 22, 2022 01:13
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Yeah, I don't think a boss you run every week should be "fun" so much as "less tedious." Add a harder mode with one-time rewards instead.
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Nov 22, 2022 01:53
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Childe is interesting because sure he has no hp but he has the most deaths of any of the weakly bosses I've fought, by a large magnitude. He does some serious damage.
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Nov 22, 2022 01:59
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Not a weekly boss but probably like 80% of my deaths can be attributed to abyss Maguu kenki, failing to dodge the first hit of any of his teleport moves with abyss scaling means death for most characters, and I've died a lot to him while doing some challenge runs.
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Nov 22, 2022 02:22
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Justin_Brett posted:Can't loving stand Scara's first phase, you get rid of the floor hazards and then he just does that move again. Or the lasers when there's no way for you to get more blocks in time. I must be doing it "wrong" because I just get up close and hit him until he changes phase  I don't even see his attacks because they go behind me. Strange design for a fight.
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Nov 22, 2022 02:39
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The spinning lasers can hit you from up close, but if you have enough dps you can just burn him down before they happen. Or just healing/shields.
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Nov 22, 2022 02:57
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Clarste posted:The spinning lasers can hit you from up close, but if you have enough dps you can just burn him down before they happen. Or just healing/shields. Jellyfish son. It heals in response to physical trauma.
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Nov 22, 2022 02:58
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Eimi posted:Childe is interesting because sure he has no hp but he has the most deaths of any of the weakly bosses I've fought, by a large magnitude. He does some serious damage. He legitimately used to be so difficult he had to be nerfed
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Nov 22, 2022 04:40
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i think they only nerfed the story boss version, the level 90 trounce domain is still much stronger but you have the benefit of fighting it at AR50 with a much stronger higher-level team instead of AR29 or whatever i think when he released in liyue pretty much nobody had a full set of 5-star artifacts, to say nothing of good substats or whatever
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Nov 22, 2022 04:44
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To get Raiden to hit harder in a Hyperbloom team, do I need to increase her EM stat?
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Nov 22, 2022 04:50
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I remember the recommended level on story boss fight for Childe was something like 36, and I was smug because all of my guys were level 50. I survived with 2 guys, and was utterly shocked that they threw a third part at you.
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Nov 22, 2022 04:52
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x1o posted:To get Raiden to hit harder in a Hyperbloom team, do I need to increase her EM stat? The trick is raiden's skill hits in an AoE around the character it targets, so it hits the hyperbloom. Hyperbloom damage is determined by character level and EM.
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Nov 22, 2022 04:53
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specifically EM will increase the damage of the hyperbloom reaction but do absolutely nothing for the rest of her kit so if you're using her burst and wondering why it does so little damage, that's how it's supposed to be -- hyperbloom raiden's role is to ignore her burst, just press E once every 25s and then go away (and casually do 90% of the team's dps anyways) the things that affect hyperbloom damage are:
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Nov 22, 2022 04:57
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x1o posted:To get Raiden to hit harder in a Hyperbloom team, do I need to increase her EM stat? If she's the hyberbloom ignition, she wants EM/Dendro Goblet because Hyperbloom is Dendro so an electro goblet is quite literally useless.
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Nov 22, 2022 05:11
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goblets do not affect transformative reaction damage though
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Nov 22, 2022 05:12
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Nah, it's like swirl. EM/EM/EM, level 90, EM weapon. The only things that affects bloom damage is stuff like the 4 piece effect of thundering fury and the new set that's gonna release in a couple weeks. But gilded dreams is good enough, and 2 gilded/2 wanderer's is also fine. Edit: preemptively beaten somehow 
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Nov 22, 2022 05:20
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:3. F2P games almost inevitably power creep and power creep, past a certain point, almost inevitably enables/creates a subset of whales who disagree with point #1 and are willing to spend bajillions of dollars to opt out of having to actually play the game. this is often the most financially lucrative audience to chase, and the minute you start catering to them is the same moment you start hemorrhaging normal players who actually enjoy video games One of my favorite historical moments was when they first introduced a solo-only event and the "pfft, this game is too easy anyway" crowd on reddit went insane with the "this event is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE" posts. Mihoyo has, to its credit, confined all the whale bait to abyss so far. Their boss design is still nonstop invulnerability (or effective invulnerability, like teleporting/flying away) segments and that sucks, but their good stuff is the actual exploration/story content and that's all free. They even toned down the initial painful abyss-like event difficulty and now they're all designed for normies.
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Nov 22, 2022 05:41
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They did a few with optional abyss-ish difficulty like the Diluc one though
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Nov 22, 2022 05:42
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This upcoming Cube event might be rough, given the reaction I see to the last time they did it. Still better than starting playing in August, running into that Diluc event (which has no trial characters), barely beat one challenge on baby difficulty, then discovering I can't even get the event costume because I had no Diluc.
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Nov 22, 2022 05:54
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there was no event costume, the event was just an ad for the $20 paid-only costume.
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Nov 22, 2022 05:57
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Unless they really change up the mechanics or go wild with the stats for the event, hyperbloom should be able to bully 6 out of 7 cubes
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Nov 22, 2022 05:57
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Mailer posted:One of my favorite historical moments was when they first introduced a solo-only event and the "pfft, this game is too easy anyway" crowd on reddit went insane with the "this event is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE" posts. I don't know if this is what you meant, but honestly this game makes no sense in multiplayer. Because all the gameplay is about switching through your team, with each character being closer to a single spell than a complete playable unit. But multiplayer completely ruins that and you end up controlling XQ or whatever and feeling weak and useless. Edit: Edited the wrong post in the wrong thread, somehow. Clarste fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Nov 22, 2022 |
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Nov 22, 2022 05:57
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Tree Reformat posted:This upcoming Cube event might be rough, given the reaction I see to the last time they did it. The event costume wasn't given out during the event though, just had a small discount on purchase though. Wasn't it still like 15 bucks? Not like Fischl one you could get free during the summer event.
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