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it seems we've found a nice rich vein in the likes of hydaelyn posting
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Nov 23, 2022 01:06
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ImpAtom posted:It is 'people will keep on the same path'  Indolent very specifically does not mean a general "people don't like to deviate" it's specifically being lazy, avoiding work or exertion.
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Nov 23, 2022 01:10
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Potsticker posted:Those are his other points, but he does say "lmao poor people don't want to work, it's just their nature" as part of it which is a weird loving thing to say as part of the whole package. i still don't think that's what he loving said, at all, but the argument is pointless.
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Nov 23, 2022 01:10
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did he say poor people don't want to work or all people don't want to also I've seen yalls posts you don't want to work!! I don't want to either
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Nov 23, 2022 01:12
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Charity uplifts one person out of poverty, which is nice. However, it does nothing to change the circumstances that put that person in poverty in the first place, which is the point Godbert was making.
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Nov 23, 2022 01:13
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Potsticker posted:
Yes, that is the M-W dictionary description. We are discussing the actual phrase it is used in. "Man is indolent by nature" which has a ton of different usages in different varieties, but Godbert's is pretty bluntly in the usage of "'Man is indolent by nature and if left to himself would follow the beaten track of his life' Which isn't an objectionable statement unless you freak out about the idea that you might take an easier route over a hard one if you have the choice, even if the easier route isn't the best. Like again this is not an objectionable statement. It is genuinely how humans function. Badger of Basra posted:did he say poor people don't want to work or all people don't want to "For all our potential we are indolent by nature" is the exact line.
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Nov 23, 2022 01:22
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this conversation is indolent
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Nov 23, 2022 01:24
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Blockhouse posted:this conversation is indolent how very glib
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Nov 23, 2022 01:24
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To believe in Eorzea is to believe in nothing!
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Nov 23, 2022 01:26
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Lord_Magmar posted:Gridania and Limsa are both effectively dictatorships, just with non-standard selection processes. Limsa's government is decided by boat race, and we should talk more often about how that's dumb as poo poo. Literally no part of the skillset required to win boat races is applicable to governing! Even if you have to captain a crew of people that's only barely got any carryover!
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Nov 23, 2022 01:26
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Cleretic posted:Limsa's government is decided by boat race, and we should talk more often about how that's dumb as poo poo. Literally no part of the skillset required to win boat races is applicable to governing! Even if you have to captain a crew of people that's only barely got any carryover! I mean that is true of most types of government. Having a skillset necessary to become a ruler doesn't mean you'll become one and vice versa. A literal game show host with 0 marketable skills became the leader of one of the largest nations on the planet. One of the other most common methods for a good chunk of human history was "I was born to the right parents so you have to listen to me." At least being good at boat racing means you're good at ONE thing instead of zero.
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Nov 23, 2022 01:29
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ImpAtom posted:Godbert's is pretty bluntly in the usage of "'Man is indolent by nature and if left to himself would follow the beaten track of his life'
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Nov 23, 2022 01:31
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"man is an indolent creature by nature" means people will generally take the easy road, the path of least resistance. it has nothing to do with being too lazy to work or any of this other bullshit people keep throwing around. the sultana wanted to offer the ala mhigans an easy solution: here's a bunch of money. do with it as you will. because she's naive, and that was all she could really think of. godbert knew this would immediately put ala mhigo, a lovely desert country full of starving people with no industry or infrastructure, under the thumb of the ul'dahn monetarists. ala mhigo would be dependent on this money. we don't know exactly how ala mhigo would have spent the money. they might have spent it on infrastructure and industry themselves, but since the money was "charitably" given, the monetarists could and would claim all of that stuff as theirs. and ala mhigo would have nothing. godbert knows that any money that comes from ul'dah is NOT unconditional. it all has strings attached. the ala mhigans would not have known that. or if they did, they wouldn't care, because they were desperate. they would have immediately taken any offer ul'dah made. and then they would have been trapped. so he tells the sultana that they have to make it so any investment leaves the ala mhigans with leverage and standing so that they're not under the heel of the monetarists. and that's what happens in the quest. it has nothing to do with poor people being too lazy to work. it's about desperation and people in power taking advantage of that.
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Nov 23, 2022 01:33
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Martman posted:He's not talking about what happens if left to themselves, he's talking about what happens if you give them welfare. And he says that they will rely on it because of their laziness I think the problem with this phrase is that people are using "indolent" as shorthand for "lazy dumb no good bums who do nothing" when it isn't. Like that isn't generally how it is used in sentences, especially in written work. (Because let's be honest that is 95% of the places you'll see it.) It can absolutely be used that way but it also can be used in lighter ways, it doesn't inherently carry the burden of insult (unless you're thin skinned.) You could rewrite the sentence as "Mankind is prone to take the easier path, and once an easy solution shows itself people may come to depend on it" and have the same basic meaning. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Nov 23, 2022 |
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Nov 23, 2022 01:39
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Clearly we need to dig up the Japanese script and work it out from there
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Nov 23, 2022 01:41
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Cleretic posted:Indeed. As an alternative, may I suggest: worst forms of government we've seen, that isn't Ul'dah? I would suggest "letting the question of which elf kingdom in Fantasyland has the worst politics slide in favor of talking about literally anything else," myself In other news, I got my Dynamis alt through the GC/chocobo/job-rock part of the MSQ! Now I just need to totally catch up on job quests for the three classes that need rocks, then start working on GC seals so I can buy ventures and work on my retainers, to unclear purpose since it's not clear if Dynamis even has an economy! Ha ha ha why am I doing this
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Nov 23, 2022 01:43
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Kerrzhe posted:godbert knew this would immediately put ala mhigo, a lovely desert country full of starving people with no industry or infrastructure, under the thumb of the ul'dahn monetarists. ala mhigo would be dependent on this money. we don't know exactly how ala mhigo would have spent the money. they might have spent it on infrastructure and industry themselves, but since the money was "charitably" given, the monetarists could and would claim all of that stuff as theirs. and ala mhigo would have nothing. I mean it's not like the monetarists won't be expecting a return on their investment in the Saltery. Regardless of the form the money takes, Ala Mhigo is going to be in debt to Ul'dah for a long time.
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Nov 23, 2022 01:50
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WrightOfWay posted:I mean it's not like the monetarists won't be expecting a return on their investment in the Saltery. Regardless of the form the money takes, Ala Mhigo is going to be in debt to Ul'dah for a long time. right, the point of bringing in Lolorito in the meeting later is to hash out the contracts so that yes, Ul'dah gets its fair share, and it is actually a FAIR share, and not the ENTIRE share.
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Nov 23, 2022 01:53
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Kerrzhe posted:right, the point of bringing in Lolorito in the meeting later is to hash out the contracts so that yes, Ul'dah gets its fair share, and it is actually a FAIR share, and not the ENTIRE share. Also he recently gave 50% of his total wealth (and all of Teledji Adeledji's wealth that he came into) to the crown, and presumably that wealth is being used for the Ala Mihgo thing. Whilst he also manages the foremost trading company in Eorzea.
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Nov 23, 2022 01:56
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YggiDee posted:Clearly we need to dig up the Japanese script and work it out from there Looking it up it looks basically the same. I don't think it got really punched up any. There may be a cultural difference in play too though, as I found a couple of blog posts which put a lot more emphasis on the "Using Ul'dah's wealth to help another nation instead of your own poor" and "It sounds more like you pity and think less of them instead of genuinely want to aid them" stuff Godbert says. Quest name is ナナモの本気 in Japanese if you want to look up videos or whatnot. Comparing scripts Godbert basically has a variation of "humans are indolent by nature" in each one, as well as in a couple of other languages I checked, though some make it a bit more clear he's referring to humanity as a whole and not The Poors.
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Nov 23, 2022 01:58
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Martman posted:He's not talking about what happens if left to themselves, he's talking about what happens if you give them welfare. And he says that they will rely on it because of their laziness If they just give Ala Mhigo some money they're going to spend it on poo poo they need to live - probably imported at great cost from other nations - because they need to live. If they set up a trade deal and develop infrastructure in Ala Mhigo with equitable terms, Ala Mhigo becomes a self-sustaining nation and won't need charity to live. It's literally just "give a man a fish, teach a man to fish". Godbert is not passing judgment on Ala Mhigans for being poor. Chillgamesh fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Nov 23, 2022 |
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Nov 23, 2022 02:06
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Kerrzhe posted:godbert knows that any money that comes from ul'dah is NOT unconditional. it all has strings attached. Chillgamesh posted:If they just give Ala Mhigo some money they're going to spend it on poo poo they need to live because they need to live. If they set up a trade deal and develop infrastructure in Ala Mhigo with equitable terms, Ala Mhigo becomes a self-sustaining nation and won't need charity to live. It's literally just "give a man a fish, teach a man to fish". Godbert is not passing judgment on Ala Mhigans for being poor. Martman fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Nov 23, 2022 |
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Nov 23, 2022 02:07
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Martman posted:How do you think this concept relates to, say, food stamps? Should people need to work to receive food assistance from the government? This is an asinine comparison because the government issuing EBT is also responsible for aggravating the circumstances leading to a populace that needs EBT.
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Nov 23, 2022 02:11
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Chillgamesh posted:This is an asinine comparison because the government issuing EBT is also responsible for aggravating the circumstances leading to a populace that needs EBT.
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Nov 23, 2022 02:12
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Cleretic posted:Limsa's government is decided by boat race, and we should talk more often about how that's dumb as poo poo. Literally no part of the skillset required to win boat races is applicable to governing! Even if you have to captain a crew of people that's only barely got any carryover! Boat race is more sensible than Gridania's, which from what I can glean is "racist trees select a child, give them horns and a stupid sounding name, they are now Tree Pope".
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Nov 23, 2022 02:14
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We get it my dude, you want to think less of the wacky joke character because one of the few serious scenes he was in they snuck in his true nature as a judgmental, bigoted prick into a single sentence with multiple plausible interpretations and it's his 100% true and canon character that they've never written or referenced again, also please disregard all his previous actions and motivations that include him literally founding the Gold Saucer as an act of charity to the realm. Also please ignore his future appearances after Stormblood where he might, I dunno, comment on how the Ala Mhigans got their homeland back. This wasn't a series of patch questlines building up to the Eorzean Alliance itself escaping their convenient status quo("We can't challenge the Empire YET!") prior to the expansion specifically about the Ala Mhigans getting back on their feet.  Godbert used that word, indolent, so he could let the greatest hero and altruistic figure of the realm and a sultana known for her altruism that actually poor people are lame.Thank God we can always drag our escapes from the tedium of the real world kicking and screaming back to it. Doomykins fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Nov 23, 2022 |
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Nov 23, 2022 02:15
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Martman posted:I don't understand why that makes it an asinine comparison. Ul'dah would be working with the monetarists to create an Ala Mhigo where no one needs charity to live and turn a profit doing so. Ul'dah is doing it out of self-interest, but so is Ala Mhigo. They both profit and eventually Ala Mhigo will be able to support itself independent of foreign investment. In contrast, giant rear end corporations are conspiring with each other to crush workers and keep wages at below sustenance levels. The government's response to this is to slap an EBT band-aid on the problem so people don't starve to death, while doing nothing to stop the corporations loving people over. It's not a good analogy.
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Nov 23, 2022 02:16
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Godbert making the Golden Saucer has had a greater net positive impact on the world than anything anyone in Gridania has ever done, discuss.
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Nov 23, 2022 02:17
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Chillgamesh posted:Ul'dah would be working with the monetarists to create an Ala Mhigo where no one needs charity to live and turn a profit doing so. Ul'dah is doing it out of self-interest, but so is Ala Mhigo. They both profit and eventually Ala Mhigo will be able to support itself independent of foreign investment.
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Nov 23, 2022 02:19
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It's literally an embodiment of whimsical video game capitalism but he specifically did it just to make the world a bit happier and he'll employ anybody without prejudice, so that's pretty cool. Godbert seems like the kind of guy who'd run a razor thin profit margin so he could donate the rest to charity or something, especially as you could put him anywhere in the world in his underwear and as long as he could find his hammer he'd still be Godbert. He seems a bit beyond money, to be honest.
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Nov 23, 2022 02:19
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Gridania is normally ruled by council, not all of whom are padjals, but most of whom are conjurers so they can at least communicate with the elementals. Kan-E-Senna was given direct control over the council at the time of the calamity and still is the direct ruler of the city - an act by the council, not the elementals.
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Nov 23, 2022 02:20
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Martman posted:I think it is weird that when Godbert criticizes what he terms "unconditional charity" (aka giving people welfare without having them "earn" it by working or whatever) because it causes "indolent creatures" to expect and rely on it, you say "actually he really meant that the charity is not unconditional at all, and the conditions are just unfavorable, and when he called them indolent creatures he didn't actually mean they're lazy even though that's what that word means" You're misunderstanding quite a bit, yes. Charity is good but it doesn't solve underlying problems. If the only reason you are surviving is because of charity then it puts you at the mercy of those providing it, even if they are technically not asking for anything in return. That doesn't mean it can't do good but to truly solve problems you need to fix the structure of those problems. In a world where you can trust everyone to have the best intentions and to remain in the same mindset that isn't a problem but it also isn't a world that exists even in fantasy. Food stamps are a very good thing but as we've seen plenty in recent years they are only a good thing as long as they exist and once they stop existing you have the same problems and no solutions. That doesn't mean charity or welfare are bad but the overall goal should be making it so they aren't necessary in the first place.
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Nov 23, 2022 02:21
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Doomykins posted:Thank God we can always drag our escapes from the tedium of the real world kicking and screaming back to it.
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Nov 23, 2022 02:21
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Funky Valentine posted:Godbert making the Golden Saucer has had a greater net positive impact on the world than anything anyone in Gridania has ever done, discuss. they get paid in mgp
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Nov 23, 2022 02:22
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He mentioned his deep thoughts on welfare states when somebody considering the effects of a welfare state came to him and asked what he thought of welfare states.
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Nov 23, 2022 02:23
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ImpAtom posted:You're misunderstanding quite a bit, yes. Charity is good but it doesn't solve underlying problems. If the only reason you are surviving is because of charity then it puts you at the mercy of those providing it, even if they are technically not asking for anything in return. That doesn't mean it can't do good but to truly solve problems you need to fix the structure of those problems.
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Nov 23, 2022 02:25
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Martman posted:Godbert is opposing giving food to hungry people "unconditionally." You seem to disagree with him, as do I! Cool. Man, I guess I missed the dialogue where he said "actually gently caress the poor, let those shitheads starve" and not the parts where he suggests that they try to create a long-term solution that benefits both Ala Mhigo and Ul'dah. Or all the previous dialogue and scenes that made it pretty bluntly clear that Godbert was actually helping the Ala Mhigan refugees quite a lot and his objection was in this specific case. You know, the thing Nanamo specifically acts surprised about because she expected him to agree because it is stuff he already does.
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Nov 23, 2022 02:29
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Zeruel posted:they get paid in mgp No they don't, you're thinking of Rowena who pays people in company scrip. Godbert pays people in Gil because he's infinitely rich and basically funding the entire Gold Saucer through his own personal money because he's a world famous goldsmith who makes incredible pieces of art worth millions. Godbert's entire thing is almost pure altruism all the time, with the caveat that his form of altruism is less about directly giving people stuff and more creating the space for them to participate and earn that stuff without prejudice or abuse.
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Nov 23, 2022 02:30
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Martman posted:Personally I thought it was a weird choice for the writers to drag the real world kicking and screaming into the game by having the billionaire character casually mention his deep thoughts on welfare states unnecessarily. Didn't ruin my appreciation for the overall story or anything, but people seem to get real mad at acknowledging that it happened. i don't actually think you think it's a weird choice and i'm beginning to think you just think it's fun to pull this poo poo instead of trying to think any deeper on the subject
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Nov 23, 2022 02:31
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flatluigi posted:i don't actually think you think it's a weird choice and i'm beginning to think you just think it's fun to pull this poo poo instead of trying to think any deeper on the subject
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Nov 23, 2022 02:35
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