|
Humbug Scoolbus posted:Well you know, J.E.Sawyer had this out in 2006 https://web.archive.org/web/20060827132423/http://www.diogenes-lamp.info/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page and there was this too http://www.fallout.ru/projects/pnp/fallout_pnp_2.0.pdf kingcom posted:Tell me more, I want to know so badly. I feel like a Fallout TTRPG would have been the easiest goal possible to design around how does it become a complete mess. Splicer fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Nov 18, 2022 |
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 21:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 05:35 |
|
|
Fan RPGs based on videogames always trend too hard into slavish replication of the source even if it would be boring at a table. Like Kain from FFIV is cool because of his aesthetic and his boring moveset isn't that bad because you've got four other characters. But in a fan RPG you pick Dragoon cause "gently caress yeah Kain!" and are then told like great, your power set is "Jump."
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 21:51
|
|
|
Humbug Scoolbus posted:Well you know, J.E.Sawyer had this out in 2006 https://web.archive.org/web/20060827132423/http://www.diogenes-lamp.info/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page and there was this too http://www.fallout.ru/projects/pnp/fallout_pnp_2.0.pdf I played a few sessions of the latter and it absolutely did not work for a mixed melee and ranged party. Even buffing movement on the melee character they just had no chance of getting anything accomplished before the rest of the party blew away every enemy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 21:53
|
|
|
Splicer posted:The straight fan ports are usually very bad because they never seem to consider that the games have save slots. All those times in Fallout 2 where some schmuck with an Uzi gets a critical hit and turns you into shredded meat inside your power armor.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 22:19
|
|
|
Splicer posted:Which is the one where every attack has a 1 in 100 chance of death by anvil. Yeah, Sawyer went on to be the dev lead on New Vegas too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 22:24
|
|
|
Epi Lepi posted:I played a few sessions of the latter and it absolutely did not work for a mixed melee and ranged party. Even buffing movement on the melee character they just had no chance of getting anything accomplished before the rest of the party blew away every enemy. theironjef posted:Fan RPGs based on videogames always trend too hard into slavish replication of the source even if it would be boring at a table. Also SPECIAL has an entire ability score just for how hard you are to kill, what kind of garbage is that at the table lol.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 23:13
|
|
|
I've definitely been at the table with people who thought "one firearms attack, in a game where firearms are common, can instantly splatter a heroic PC" is fun tradgame design, but in all fairness that was a Rifts table so who knows what was going on there
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 23:45
|
|
|
theironjef posted:Fan RPGs based on videogames always trend too hard into slavish replication of the source even if it would be boring at a table. To be fair I remember the FFD6 Dragoon had a lot of poo poo other than Jump like Dragon Breath and Lancet
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 00:04
|
|
|
Plutonis posted:To be fair I remember the FFD6 Dragoon had a lot of poo poo other than Jump like Dragon Breath and Lancet why does the dragoon get access to a british medical journal
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 00:47
|
|
|
Arivia posted:why does the dragoon get access to a british medical journal You've heard of barber-surgeons? Well, buddy, we are about to go next-level
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 01:06
|
|
|
Plutonis posted:To be fair I remember the FFD6 Dragoon had a lot of poo poo other than Jump like Dragon Breath and Lancet Arivia posted:why does the dragoon get access to a british medical journal To semiseriously answer this question, Freya in Final Fantasy 9 was a Dragon Knight/Dragoon and so came with a suite of learnable abilities beyond the innate Jump. 'Lancet' (FF10)' or 'Lancer' (FF9) was basically always superior to a regular attack in every respect other than in-game time as it did increased damage as well as restore HP and mana. Other notable abilities included Reis' Wind, which cast Regen on all allies (nice to have for boss fights), Cherry Blossom, which attacked all enemies, Dragon's Crest, which attacked a single target for a fixed amount based on the amount of defeated dragon-type enemies, and Six Dragons, which basically did random bullshit which might as well hurt you as much as help you and so basically sucked. Dragoons/DragonKnights in FF14 also have a bunch of abilities, none of which are really as interesting as anything Freya had in terms of variety other than Dragon's Eye which grants a damage boost to a linked ally.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 13:25
|
|
|
Has there ever been a game where a player’s choice of class/ability/etc also mechanically varied the victory conditions for encounters?
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2022 05:09
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Has there ever been a game where a player’s choice of class/ability/etc also mechanically varied the victory conditions for encounters? Video game or TTRPG? There are loads of TTRPG where characters have different XP events/secret agendas.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2022 05:27
|
|
|
*glances at small mountain of PbtA games* Nope, can't think of a single one.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2022 07:17
|
|
|
Mirage posted:*glances at small mountain of PbtA games* lmao
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2022 08:37
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Has there ever been a game where a player’s choice of class/ability/etc also mechanically varied the victory conditions for encounters? Even in board games this happens... like in the classic Dune boardgame! Everyone is playing by mostly the same rules, but different players have different victory conditions. The Spacer's Guild automatically wins if you hit the round limit, so they can just aim for a long game instead of trying to win normally. The Bene Gesserit can write down a round number and a player, and if that player wins on that round, then actually the Bene Gesserit won because they foretold and planned it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2022 09:39
|
|
|
I did mean TTRPGs, yes. PbtA I believe varies the conditions for gaining XP, not for winning encounters?
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2022 13:37
|
|
|
hyphz posted:I did mean TTRPGs, yes. Can you go into what you mean? What does it mean to "win" an encounter? Encounters can have different stakes (e.g., drive-off vs subdue vs kill). And I can imagine members of a party sometimes having different desires for outcome (cleric wants to kill, rogue wants to subdue), but that's going to be a lot of GM work and intra-party drama to do often. And I'm not sure how much mechanical support that needs. Or do you mean something different by "win"?
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2022 13:58
|
|
|
Mirage posted:*glances at small mountain of PbtA games* All right but what about good TTRPGs?
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2022 14:45
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Has there ever been a game where a player’s choice of class/ability/etc also mechanically varied the victory conditions for encounters? I think just from this wording you could probably count any game that lets you resolve combat encounters without combat. I'd say for my money Forged in the Dark games do this a heck of a lot, with the players being able to decide pretty freely how they want to approach their heists. Though in blades the stats all use the same systems and I'm assuming you're maybe gesturing more towards having separate non-overlapping systems for resolving the same encounter, video game style? Burning Wheel or Cyberpunk may be a good one to look into for that (but my experience with both is unfortunately limited)
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2022 15:09
|
|
|
I mean, I was thinking like this (5 minute design, probably terrible in practice) - instead of having Hit Points for the bad guy we have a pool of Victory Points. The PCs defeat the bad guy when they together score 100 VP. - when Hulk hits the bad guy he scores 10 VP. - when Spider-Man hits the bad guy he scores 15 VP but when Spider-Man is hit he loses VP (which Hulk doesn’t) as well as HP (which Hulk still does) Basically I was thinking about how many systems have a problem with character expression because all characters are ultimately held to a common standard of success, and some character types will match that standard more closely than others. If success is raw damage total for everyone then of course Hulk will do better. If success is dealing damage without the enemy being able to strike back then of course Spidey will do better. But what if we don’t enforce a common standard anymore? It’s “dissociated” mind you..
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2022 15:38
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Basically I was thinking about how many systems have a problem with character expression because all characters are ultimately held to a common standard of success, and some character types will match that standard more closely than others. If success is raw damage total for everyone then of course Hulk will do better. If success is dealing damage without the enemy being able to strike back then of course Spidey will do better. But what if we don’t enforce a common standard anymore? It’s “dissociated” mind you.. "What does it really mean to 'win,' maaaaan?" There are a lot of games that deal with this. In Fellowship, to quickly defeat a foe, you have to gain an Advantage and then Finish Them. But what that Advantage is, and how you "finish" them, is not some numerical-mechanical thing, but is driven by the ongoing story and actions of the players. You could use your amazing martial ability to disarm and skewer them, of course, but you could also tell them a terrible truth (or amazing lie) and convince them this fight's not worth fighting, or pull their pants down and shove them in a broom closet. You can even talk bad guys over to your side. If you don't Finish Them immediately, you can still whittle away their abilities until they're functionally incapable of attacking you anyway. Then you have games that are social-forward, like Hard Wired Island, or totally combat-averse, like Monster Care Squad. In games like those, you mostly pile up a bunch of results until you can trigger a new phase, and combat is tertiary at best. MCS is particularly interesting because a "win" is your team subduing, diagnosing, and healing a sick rampaging beast. Usually one big enough to eat a house. But, yeah. Hit points are old school these days.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2022 16:58
|
|
|
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F...ock-11668454430quote:An oversupply of Hasbro Inc.’s “Magic: The Gathering” cards is hurting the ecosystem for the fantasy trading-card game, “destroying the long-term value of the brand” and threatening sales, BofA analysts said in downgrading the stock on Monday. Seems like WotC is doing the same things that Upper Desk did when they were riding high on sports cards. Flooding the market with more products than consumers will buy, ignoring their retailers and producing super-premium high priced products.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2022 22:49
|
|
|
Bucnasti posted:https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F...ock-11668454430 Been talked about at length in the Trad Game Industry Thread. The important take away is lol hasbro.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2022 23:01
|
|
|
Mirage posted:"What does it really mean to 'win,' maaaaan?"
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2022 00:41
|
|
|
Bucnasti posted:https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F...ock-11668454430 This has been done to death in like 3 or 4 other threads in this subforum including https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3849301&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=931#post527733374, but the report has been debunked and basically none of that is true. The market is not yet saturated, and even the super-premium stuff they've put out has been snapped up immediately.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2022 00:42
|
|
|
Splicer posted:Are there any crunchy games with Wound/Injury/Madness analogues but no HP/Stress analogues? You can gain qualitative problems but there's no number counting down? Some flavors of FATE do this depending on your definition of "crunchy".
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2022 01:36
|
|
|
Splicer posted:Are there any crunchy games with Wound/Injury/Madness analogues but no HP/Stress analogues? You can gain qualitative problems but there's no number counting down? One of the Burning Wheel hacks went completely numberless*, but all Burning Wheel hacks fuse into one in my memory like a giant wizard-voice SRD, so I can't tell you. *It had at least 2-3 tracks of increasingly negative narrative traits that terminated in character loss though. So de facto it's the same as if you had X many HP, where X is how long the trait chain is.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2022 04:57
|
|
|
That also sounds like City of Mist, but it's an aggressive death spiral.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2022 17:43
|
|
|
So a concrete-outcome damage system that does things like "He hits you for *rolls dice* a gimpy leg!" It'd probably be table hell, especially if you had layered damage types (poisoned daggers, etc.), but it can be done. How fun it would be depends on the group.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2022 18:41
|
|
|
Mirage posted:So a concrete-outcome damage system that does things like "He hits you for *rolls dice* a gimpy leg!" At least from memory (no I can't find it with cursory googling, hopefully I didn't make this up by accident) it was nowhere near that granular and was just a stacked list of negative traits that you could get as a possible consequence/complication from the generalized conflict rules. e.g. you won the Duel of Wits but it wasn't easy so you take Angry or Tired, which is more likely to lead to other problems (and you fluff it as being still worked up about not expressing yourself better or ashamed at losing your cool or whatever because "just kind of generally pissed off" isn't that interesting a character dynamic, trust me I live it.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2022 20:12
|
|
|
Splicer posted:Are there any crunchy games with Wound/Injury/Madness analogues but no HP/Stress analogues? You can gain qualitative problems but there's no number counting down? I’d almost forgotten about this, but Legends of the Wulin (Fatal &Friends writeup) works exactly this way, no HP or alternative damage tracks at all, any and every source of damage, curses, emotional distress etc are modeled as Chi Conditions, which are most similar to Fate Aspects but have their own distinctions (most notably that they aren’t linked to a resource economy and can be created as either carrot or stick; i.e., “be bound by this condition and get a dice bonus” or “be bound by this condition or get a dice penalty”). LOTW is streamlined from its previous edition Weapons of the Gods, but still several steps crunchier than something like Fate thanks to its interest in making lots of mechanically distinct martial arts. That said, I think 3.x and onwards D&D is extremely high crunch and that’s probably a lot of people’s baseline… Parkreiner fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Nov 22, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2022 20:42
|
|
|
people roast Shadow of the Demon Lord for being a very edgelordy game, but i am forever grateful to it because part of a supplement about edgy monsters led to me finding out i have a sensory processing disorder  i didnt realise that wasnt normal and its been a cause of a lot of hypochondria in my life bc if i feel a minor variation in breathing or digestion or my heart beating it sticks out like hearing your name in a noisy room. thank you edgy decaying organ thieving monsters, because of you i dont have to constantly worry i am constantly rotting irl
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2022 02:05
|
|
|
e: sorry missed the crunchy
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2022 15:12
|
|
|
Parkreiner posted:I’d almost forgotten about this, but Legends of the Wulin (Fatal &Friends writeup) works exactly this way, no HP or alternative damage tracks at all, any and every source of damage, curses, emotional distress etc are modeled as Chi Conditions, which are most similar to Fate Aspects but have their own distinctions (most notably that they aren’t linked to a resource economy and can be created as either carrot or stick; i.e., “be bound by this condition and get a dice bonus” or “be bound by this condition or get a dice penalty”). Every time I've tried to parse Legends of the Wulin, my brain has just refused to understand it. I'm not sure if it's down to the rules, the way the rules are presented or down to me, but I just cannot manage it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2022 15:24
|
|
|
juggalo baby coffin posted:people roast Shadow of the Demon Lord for being a very edgelordy game, but i am forever grateful to it because part of a supplement about edgy monsters led to me finding out i have a sensory processing disorder
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2022 15:32
|
|
|
juggalo baby coffin posted:people roast Shadow of the Demon Lord for being a very edgelordy game, but i am forever grateful to it because part of a supplement about edgy monsters led to me finding out i have a sensory processing disorder These are also signs of hypertension + cholesterol build up.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2022 16:03
|
|
|
juggalo baby coffin posted:people roast Shadow of the Demon Lord for being a very edgelordy game, but i am forever grateful to it because part of a supplement about edgy monsters led to me finding out i have a sensory processing disorder This is what happens to me during a bad trip which is why I don't touch the stuff anymore Sometimes I feel this during the day and it sets off my anxiety
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2022 16:05
|
|
|
Also I am now extremely conscious of my own breathing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2022 16:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 05:35 |
|
|
Splicer posted:Oy maybe you're an edgy decaying organ thieving monster
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2022 16:19
|
|
