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i think the difference cicadalek means is that wow actively tries to foster that dynamic while ffxiv tries to disincentivize it as much as possible, and i think it's true that it leads to a generally much healthier community
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Nov 26, 2022 08:47
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I will be the best MNK in the world with full spell speed melds so help me Hydaelyn.
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Nov 26, 2022 08:53
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flatluigi posted:i think the difference cicadalek means is that wow actively tries to foster that dynamic while ffxiv tries to disincentivize it as much as possible, and i think it's true that it leads to a generally much healthier community Watching the video, I have to disagree with the statement that WoW designs fights with mods in mind. Sometimes they create fights that mods are very necessary for, but legitimately there's stuff in FFXIV that is much harder to do than anything in WoW. Mods aren't necessary, they just help, and the playerbase as a whole adopt them but the argument Blizzard design with them expected is one that frustrates me personally. That idea that WoW designs with mods in mind for fights is one of the things that is used to argue that WoW fosters the dynamic involved. I would argue that it is much more that WoW doesn't do anything to stop this, and when they do people get mad at them for breaking mods. FFXIV has a healthier community, for the majority, but all those things in WoW still exist and as someone who enjoys hard group content, I've met exactly the same sort of people in both games and they suck equally in both. Plus FFXIV has some of it's own community issues, Mentors for example.
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Nov 26, 2022 08:59
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Lord_Magmar posted:No that still exists in FFXIV, it's just much more contained. All the whining about Machinist is related to this (no matter how accurate it is that Machinist is too weak). It's not really a question of overestimating the amount of optimization required; if there's something for you to optimize and you're not actively pursuing it, a lot of players will consider you to be a bad player even if you're meeting whatever damage/healing/mitigation requirements that the content demands. This applies to FFXIV as well; just because P5S lists 600 as the minimum ilvl for the content doesn't mean that people want you to show up with an i600 average when you could get at least 610 from normal mode raids, especially 3 months into the tier. Lord_Magmar posted:Watching the video, I have to disagree with the statement that WoW designs fights with mods in mind. Sometimes they create fights that mods are very necessary for, but legitimately there's stuff in FFXIV that is much harder to do than anything in WoW. Mods aren't necessary, they just help, and the playerbase as a whole adopt them but the argument Blizzard design with them expected is one that frustrates me personally. Ion has gone on record saying that they design fights in WoW with mods in mind since otherwise DBM and WeakAuras would immediately trivialize the content so this isn't a theory of Dan's but an actual thing that the game director said during an interview. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMmsFb9mf6M&t=935s
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Nov 26, 2022 09:13
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QuantaStarFire posted:Ion has gone on record saying that they design fights in WoW with mods in mind since otherwise DBM and WeakAuras would immediately trivialize the content so this isn't a theory of Dan's but an actual thing that the game director said during an interview. You know what, that's fair, I think perhaps I'm using the wrong language. Very rarely is addons REQUIRED to kill a thing in WoW, even if it's made with addons in mind the way around them tends to be making things addons can't solve, not mechanics so difficult you need addons to do them. It's specifically followed with "We don't want you to feel like you have to download mods to do stuff in game." Which is the point I was trying to make, these raids can be done without addons, and many of the stuff in FFXIV raids is actively harder than things people use mods for in WoW.
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Nov 26, 2022 09:24
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Lord_Magmar posted:You know what, that's fair, I think perhaps I'm using the wrong language. Very rarely is addons REQUIRED to kill a thing in WoW, even if it's made with addons in mind the way around them tends to be making things addons can't solve, not mechanics so difficult you need addons to do them. It's specifically followed with "We don't want you to feel like you have to download mods to do stuff in game." Which is the point I was trying to make, these raids can be done without addons, and many of the stuff in FFXIV raids is actively harder than things people use mods for in WoW. In theory, you don't need addons; in practice, people will make you download them (and one of the example mods they talk about in the Folding Ideas video is a WeakAura that bricks unless everyone in the raid has it installed, so you can be singled out if you don't have it) or they just won't invite you to do content because at that point you're actively choosing to play worse.
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Nov 26, 2022 09:43
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Heroic fate-ring-rotator was pretty much unviable without the addon assigning buffed folk to specific rings, way too quick decision making, way too laggy mechanism, and way too many things that could go wrong based on tiny variations in ping. edit: in summary, gently caress that kind of fight design. The dance of ffxiv is infinitely superior.
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Nov 26, 2022 09:52
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G-Spot Run posted:heroic fate-ring-rotator was pretty much unviable without the addon assigning buffed folk to specific rings, way too quick decision making, way too laggy mechanism, and way too many things that could go wrong based on tiny variations in ping. Oh yeah, and I cannot imagine doing Lords of Dread without the voting addon, unless you were in voice chat and even then the addon is much quicker. But I think that there should be an understanding of the separation between the things caused by design, and the things caused by player response to design. You definitely can do Lords of Dread using voice chat instead of the addon, the player base chooses the addon because it's the "best" option, not because it's a required one, and in turn that makes it required by players but not the game design. To me, this is an interesting space to consider and discuss, and turning it into just the players or just the game design feels disengenous. Especially in relation to stuff in FFXIV like P4S Phase 2, or P6S or P8S Phase 1. Things that the game aren't particularly great at presenting (massive debuff collections) being intense mechanical checks that you can't use addons for, far more intense than WoW requiring a bit of communication about who is taking which ring. It just feels a bit disengenuous to me I guess, to blame Addons for the difficulty and design of parts of WoW raiding being seen as too far. When I myself rarely used addons to raid, because I found I played worse with them (as unloading that mental capacity meant I got sloppier on mechanical execution). The games are doing different things, I appreciate and enjoy the fight design of both. WoW sometimes has some stinkers (Fatescribe is poo poo) but in return WoW has some really fun ideas that would never exist in FFXIV (off the top of my head, it's hard but the ballroom fight in Castle Nathria is a lot of goofy fun with the literal dance floor intermission). Which yes, there is Suzaku and her EX, but that's two expansions ago, and a big issue in the current savage raid design compared to say, the Alliance Raid design, is how very uninventive it can feel at times. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Nov 26, 2022 |
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Nov 26, 2022 09:57
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I'd say that the HC sections of P8S p2 count as a fun intermission section. I even get to break out Clemency for them for once.
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Nov 26, 2022 10:59
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Ibblebibble posted:I'd say that the HC sections of P8S p2 count as a fun intermission section. I even get to break out Clemency for them for once. It's also basically a solved puzzle though, I do really like it conceptually though and the solution is rad in a way that normally seems reserved for Ultimates. I think it's a numbers game, WoW raids have 9-12 bosses, FFXIV have 4, so you're more likely to get weird designs in WoW than FFXIV, even if both teams can and have been very inventive at times.
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Nov 26, 2022 11:15
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Cleretic posted:That questline tends to be the most polarizing of the role quests, I think because it asks you to be broadly sympathetic towards religious people, which nerds tend not to love--especially nerds playing JRPGs. I don't think it's because it asks for sympathy towards religious people, so much as it's the fact that it's just hammering again on the one goddamn plotline Ishgard ever has. Due to the nature of the game world they're never going to make meaningful progress on that, but they don't have to go back to the Scholasticate well for every loving questline there. Other things can happen!
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Nov 26, 2022 12:02
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Khizan posted:I don't think it's because it asks for sympathy towards religious people, so much as it's the fact that it's just hammering again on the one goddamn plotline Ishgard ever has. Due to the nature of the game world they're never going to make meaningful progress on that, but they don't have to go back to the Scholasticate well for every loving questline there. Other things can happen! Also the Scholasticate does the entire thing way better.
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Nov 26, 2022 12:35
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Are the tank role quests in Gridania not polarizing, because they're just bad full stop?
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Nov 26, 2022 13:02
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The Role quest was more on the critical path rather than totally optional so I'll cut it a little slack for trying, but yeah Scholasticate did it better for sureorcane posted:Are the tank role quests in Gridania not polarizing, because they're just bad full stop? It's "good" in the sense that it made a very, very, small step toward acknowledging that everything is not Just Fine with the Gridania system. There's a small hope we might get a little more in a treetown variant dungeon. The writers don't seem to want to get into Grids issues that much and it wasn't the citystate of a full xpac either so who knows. GloomMouse fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Nov 26, 2022 |
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Nov 26, 2022 13:03
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double post~
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Nov 26, 2022 13:10
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I like Curious Gorge edit: I also missed "Gridania" in that post so I guess this is just a Curious Gorge appreciation post now
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Nov 26, 2022 13:13
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QuantaStarFire posted:It's not really a question of overestimating the amount of optimization required; if there's something for you to optimize and you're not actively pursuing it, a lot of players will consider you to be a bad player even if you're meeting whatever damage/healing/mitigation requirements that the content demands. This applies to FFXIV as well; just because P5S lists 600 as the minimum ilvl for the content doesn't mean that people want you to show up with an i600 average when you could get at least 610 from normal mode raids, especially 3 months into the tier. to be fair, that's less because gear is an expression of player skill, and more that gear makes up for player skill. in a perfect world we're all good players with good gear, but between good players with mediocre gear, mediocre players with good gear, and mediocre players with mediocre gear, you can only really filter based on gear. when you're hard stuck on p7s due to 0.9% enrages on deathless runs for three weeks in a row, maybe it's time to crank up that 615 ilvl requirement to a 618 ilvl one also "whatever mitigation requirements that the content demands" isn't real, that's a lie made up by Big DPS to keep the little healer down so they don't have to ever press addle or feint even once in their lives. in the early weeks of p8s before people had an hp advantage thanks to better gear, if i didn't slam on extra shields people would die to sunforge flares, and the times i didn't there's always a dps going "but i was at full health, why did i die?", well maybe you shoulda addled that bud.
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Nov 26, 2022 13:50
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Black Griffon posted:I like Curious Gorge
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Nov 26, 2022 14:38
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I'm sure they'll use the forgotten 1.0 Gelmorran stuff as the basis for a Gridanian variant dungeon, though honestly I've been waiting for a FF4 style underworld zone for ages and would like to see something tie into that.
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Nov 26, 2022 16:02
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I am glad addons are mostly hush hush because you just know that you'd never get into groups if you didn't install autocombo or whatever because of tattle addons.
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Nov 26, 2022 16:32
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in my current static we joke that some people really need to install cactbot just to be able to remember what their loving number was on dog
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Nov 26, 2022 16:36
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orcane posted:Are the tank role quests in Gridania not polarizing, because they're just bad full stop? Got to keep that stupid tree happy so it doesn't murder everyone in the forest
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Nov 26, 2022 16:48
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The gridania quests were my favorite Healing the earth and learning to live with it and all that
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Nov 26, 2022 16:56
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DACK FAYDEN posted:hell who doesn't Having him go through almost the exact same character arc in HW as he did in ARR wasn’t great, though the Stormblood line made up for that.
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Nov 26, 2022 17:08
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gridania would be more fun if it had plotlines about things that weren't the elementals, but we can't talk about ixal/sylphs ever because of tribe quests and we can't do gelmorra because ???. sure, limsa and ul'dah also only have one premise apiece (sid meier's pirates, syndicate bad), but those are more fun than "elemental-related miscommunication".
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Nov 26, 2022 18:13
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Valentin posted:gridania would be more fun if it had plotlines about things that weren't the elementals, but we can't talk about ixal/sylphs ever because of tribe quests and we can't do gelmorra because ???. sure, limsa and ul'dah also only have one premise apiece (sid meier's pirates, syndicate bad), but those are more fun than "elemental-related miscommunication". Extended Gridania quests could just be Beatin doing Beatin things. If you haven't done any carpenter quests, he'll just stand there waiting impatiently for you to do them before you can continue with the Gridania story.
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Nov 26, 2022 19:37
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It would have been good to give gridania some characters over the last 10+ years. But oh well
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Nov 26, 2022 19:50
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No Mods No Masters posted:It would have been good to give gridania some characters over the last 10+ years. But oh well gridania has important characters such as "unnamed serpent guy"
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Nov 26, 2022 20:02
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The leatherworking guild lady was fun, but we're legally limited to a maximum of one mean lady in heels per expansion.
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Nov 26, 2022 20:14
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The symptoms described in that video are very recognizable in ffxiv, even in extremely easy content, it's just that xiv isn't quite as far down the road, either by design or just because fewer years have passed. But the anecdote about people yelling at you if you go left instead of right in a dungeon is basically the same thing as tanking bone dragon center. The constant friction over big pulls is exactly their point about instrumental play filtering down to content where it's more of a social constraint than something the game itself is asking for. I've seen PFs wait for an hour for a ranged physical to join for fights where double caster or triple melee would have been completely fine. The passage about unspoken rules determining player behavior in farm content is exactly how you get PFs that have descriptions which are completely impenetrable to people who don't use PF Like the game isn't ruined by any of this and in particular you'll pull big pulls from my cold dead hands but pretty much everything the video brought up is present to some degree in this game as well, with the possible exception of add-ons specifically (and even then I believe PF expects you to use them in uwu) cheetah7071 fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Nov 26, 2022 |
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Nov 26, 2022 20:30
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I'm looking at you, PFs with 600+ req for Sephirot Unreal. Thing synchs you down to 565 or some poo poo. I frequently join on my 630 main just to switch to a 585 job cause gently caress those guys
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Nov 26, 2022 20:41
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Nessus posted:The leatherworking guild lady was fun, but we're legally limited to a maximum of one mean lady in heels per expansion. Geva is a Small Business Tyrant and in this YouTube video I will take two hours examining labor relations in all the crafting questlines -
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Nov 26, 2022 20:55
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Technical question: if I use MS authenticator for my 2FA on my current phone, is there any reason why getting a new phone and transferring everything there would break Ff14 2FA? A couple months back I noticed the update text in the launcher that indicated that Ff14 will break if you don't turn off 2FA first via MOG station, then swap phones and and turn 2FA back on from scratch. I can't figure out what would make Ff14 special and am curious if it's all just some S-E paranoia to avoid customer support calls.
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Nov 26, 2022 21:53
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Zachack posted:Technical question: if I use MS authenticator for my 2FA on my current phone, is there any reason why getting a new phone and transferring everything there would break Ff14 2FA? A couple months back I noticed the update text in the launcher that indicated that Ff14 will break if you don't turn off 2FA first via MOG station, then swap phones and and turn 2FA back on from scratch. I can't figure out what would make Ff14 special and am curious if it's all just some S-E paranoia to avoid customer support calls. FF14 used to have its own authenticator app that was locked to the phone. If you use the new method that uses standard TOTP, you don't have to worry about that.
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Nov 26, 2022 22:00
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And by "used to" it only started supporting any other apps in April of this year. So glad they made the migration finally.
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Nov 26, 2022 22:09
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Funky Valentine posted:Geva is a Small Business Tyrant and in this YouTube video I will take two hours examining labor relations in all the crafting questlines -
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Nov 26, 2022 22:11
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Still waiting on Alisae to say "gently caress the police"
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Nov 26, 2022 22:18
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Tamba posted:FF14 used to have its own authenticator app that was locked to the phone. If you use the new method that uses standard TOTP, you don't have to worry about that. It still exists and I still use it as ... I haven't felt the need to switch over. laziness and all that.
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Nov 26, 2022 22:21
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Kazy posted:And by "used to" it only started supporting any other apps in April of this year. Last year, some time around the 5.5 update
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Nov 26, 2022 22:25
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Thundarr posted:Extended Gridania quests could just be Beatin doing Beatin things. If you haven't done any carpenter quests, he'll just stand there waiting impatiently for you to do them before you can continue with the Gridania story. Kan-E-Senna having a very hush-hush meeting to explain to you that, because something something dynamis something something natural balance, Beatin's unacknowledged sexual frustration is now a matter of national security
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Nov 26, 2022 23:49
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