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QuarkJets posted:It was definitely thought up later, but I think Dr Venture in seasons 1-3 would have had a lower EMA level - maybe a 7? He becomes a level 10 protagonist when he inherits the company that Jonas created (probably because of the wealth and up to date inventions that came with) EMA is noted to take a lot of things into account, including presentation, and presumably skill and motivation. As in, how much they're able and willing to bring to bear. It's basically canon that supervillains use the kid gloves because they like it, but have access to far worse, and part of the reason the OSI cooperates- and they and the Guild even have terms of engagement set out by treaty- is to keep superpowered freaks, mad scientists and rich lunatics from running completely rampant unpredictably. See also Gathers' version of SPHINX, going after non-costumed threats using super-science that the OSI was apparently neglecting. And it's funny how well it works in retrospect, but I think from the start they had an idea of how there's at the very least a gentleman's agreement to meet your arch on more or less equal terms to keep it fun, like when 21 and 24 recruited a bunch of gang bangers they were chewed out for using actual guns. Which also says something about how pathetic level 2 and 3 arching must be even considering what we see of level 1.
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Nov 28, 2022 02:47
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Ghost Leviathan posted:EMA is noted to take a lot of things into account, including presentation, and presumably skill and motivation. As in, how much they're able and willing to bring to bear. It's basically canon that supervillains use the kid gloves because they like it, but have access to far worse, and part of the reason the OSI cooperates- and they and the Guild even have terms of engagement set out by treaty- is to keep superpowered freaks, mad scientists and rich lunatics from running completely rampant unpredictably. See also Gathers' version of SPHINX, going after non-costumed threats using super-science that the OSI was apparently neglecting. BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRICK FROG!
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Nov 28, 2022 04:01
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Speaking of which, in "Hate Floats", Phantom Limb actually directly calls Doctor Venture a Level 1 threat when saying that those henchmen with guns were using Level 5 weapons. So yeah, what they are able to bring to bear certainly matters as Brock himself is what rases the threat level of the Venture operation. Also, when Venture makes it big after JJ dies, his assets (money and technological) are what makes him a Level 10 rather than any change in Venture himself that makes him more of a threat. Funny enough, even when Venture jumps up to top level, he STILL only has the same bodyguard that he did in the early days. That's because Brock is that good and he was really just only taking things as far as he needed to when protecting Venture. Basically, Doctor Venture is a special case because he's a legacy. That makes him important with respect to the ORB and then his inherited assets after JJ dies, but no real threat in and of himself through both lack of desire and skill. That's why a mid level Monarch (and presumably Sargent Hatred) is allowed to arch Venture because the OSI knew Brock was more than a match and that he wouldn't go too far. This is also how I reconcile "The Bellicose Proxy" as they are excited for Billy and White to get costumes and protagonist identities when Doctor Venture NEVER did any of that poo poo.
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Nov 28, 2022 04:27
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It could be that Dr Venture as an individual is a level 1 "threat" while having a higher overall arch level thanks to Brokk (and probably HELPeR too I guess)
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Nov 28, 2022 04:33
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I wouldn't be surprised if there was a phase where Rusty at least tried giving a poo poo, that he probably looks back on with a mix of embarrassment and a little fondness.
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Nov 28, 2022 06:28
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bull3964 posted:Speaking of which, in "Hate Floats", Phantom Limb actually directly calls Doctor Venture a Level 1 threat when saying that those henchmen with guns were using Level 5 weapons. He also adds Vatered when he hits it big. That has to count as something he was what a level 5 villain?
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Nov 28, 2022 13:06
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pixaal posted:He also adds Vatered when he hits it big. That has to count as something he was what a level 5 villain? Technically Vatred is just a security guard who works for Venture but yeah maybe. But they do make it explicit when Gathers reassigns Hatred that the only reason Doc is top level is because he inherited another fortune and basement full of science fiction devices hence getting Brock back. The OSI has to put up with Doc because there's always a chance he'll open a linen closet to look for Parcheesy and accidentally activate Jonas' Super-Mega Kill-O-Zap Doomsday Ray, or (possibly) worse one of his bumbling archenemies will steal the machine from him.
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Nov 28, 2022 13:51
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Tad can actually do some things, too, when he isn't being a lazy rear end. Unfortunately, he's the laziest motherfucker out there.
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Nov 28, 2022 14:44
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DaysBefore posted:Technically Vatred is just a security guard who works for Venture but yeah maybe. But they do make it explicit when Gathers reassigns Hatred that the only reason Doc is top level is because he inherited another fortune and basement full of science fiction devices hence getting Brock back. The OSI has to put up with Doc because there's always a chance he'll open a linen closet to look for Parcheesy and accidentally activate Jonas' Super-Mega Kill-O-Zap Doomsday Ray, or (possibly) worse one of his bumbling archenemies will steal the machine from him. That's basically half the episodes of one season stumbling into random poo poo around the compound that Jonas forgot about. Rusty is an interesting example given he's spent literally his entire life adventuring to the point where it's utterly routine to him, but he is also actually pretty good at it when he can muster the motivation. It's been outright said he was an amazing boy adventurer and sidekick- hell, he had to be to survive, probably- but left him nowhere to go but down as an adult, even considering his education got interrupted right when he might have developed the skills to come into his own. Also implied that he and the boys were literal Scooby-Doo level adventurers for a lot of it. Main problem is Rusty took all the wrong lessons about super-science and has an absolutely hosed sense of priorities, as well as being hopelessly out of touch with the modern world- he's been immersed on that society all his life, after all, and never really had any sense of normalcy. That's his tragedy. Also remember the backstory; Brock was originally assigned to Venture as a punishment slash retaliation to keep him away from anywhere important after Hunter Gathers was the only one still paying attention to the Guild at the height of the Pyramid Wars, a clear easy-mode post whose previous holder was only removed because she went nuts. About everyone came to see it as a waste of an exemplary agent, but Brock clearly grew into it. Though interesting it's implied that Hatred is actually far more effective both at fighting bad guys- see above the Monarch henchmen complaining he actually has a higher kill count on them because he uses guns- and in actually protecting the boys, they don't have their clones anymore by the time Hatred becomes their bodyguard but he keeps them alive and seems to actively train them a bit. Basically, Brock is an extremely optimised minion murder machine but Hatred is more an all-rounder- he and 21 are explicitly shown to be evenly matched, after all.
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Nov 28, 2022 15:10
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Hatred is more an all-rounder- he and 21 are explicitly shown to be evenly matched, after all. In your dreams, fatback.
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Nov 28, 2022 15:38
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It's a shame we never got to see more of Hatred being a world-weary double-agent who knew every aspect of both the Guild and The OSI inside-out. The episode where he teams up with Brock to punk Wide Whale and they parachute away together is great but most of his actual competency both as a villain and bodyguard is usually only referred to off-screen.
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Nov 28, 2022 15:42
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DaysBefore posted:Technically Vatred is just a security guard who works for Venture but yeah maybe. But they do make it explicit when Gathers reassigns Hatred that the only reason Doc is top level is because he inherited another fortune and basement full of science fiction devices hence getting Brock back. The OSI has to put up with Doc because there's always a chance he'll open a linen closet to look for Parcheesy and accidentally activate Jonas' Super-Mega Kill-O-Zap Doomsday Ray, or (possibly) worse one of his bumbling archenemies will steal the machine from him. They also pay attention to him for the chance he might invent a true game changer so that they can fail to protect it.
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Nov 28, 2022 15:45
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Making Hatred a pedophile was an awful mistake and has aged incredibly poorly. He molested the boys for God's sake Despite this I say "it was mostly awful" at least once a week
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Nov 28, 2022 15:51
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Alan_Shore posted:Making Hatred a pedophile was an awful mistake and has aged incredibly poorly. He molested the boys for God's sake You could even say it was Something Awful 
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Nov 28, 2022 16:07
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Alan_Shore posted:Making Hatred a pedophile was an awful mistake and has aged incredibly poorly. He molested the boys for God's sake I will say the b-plot where he runs out of Pedophilia Inhibitors and they treat it like he's Blade is one of his best moments.
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Nov 28, 2022 16:56
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I enjoy that the adult swim marathon includes the Shallow Gravy documentary and JJ's funeral.
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Nov 28, 2022 17:30
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i hear your notes but if Hatred wasn't who he is you wouldn't get the Henry Darger bit.
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Nov 28, 2022 17:49
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pablo gbscobar posted:It's a shame we never got to see more of Hatred being a world-weary double-agent who knew every aspect of both the Guild and The OSI inside-out. The episode where he teams up with Brock to punk Wide Whale and they parachute away together is great but most of his actual competency both as a villain and bodyguard is usually only referred to off-screen. I really like when The Monarch first loses the right to arch Rusty and Hatred takes over. He's willing to throw his men at Brock to be killed while not being able to do any real damage themselves just to piss off The Monarch, because Rusty will never be in any real danger despite Hatred constantly arching him. He really shows that he fully understands the Guild vs OSI dynamic and runs his operation by the book.
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Nov 28, 2022 19:05
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"We're going full nerf on this one!"
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Nov 28, 2022 20:50
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Sgt Hatred as the bureaucratic villain was good, literally giving Rusty a survey about how much "menace" he feels regarding spiders and flamethrowers and then having him sign feedback forms after an arching was a good way of separating him from The Monarch. Sgt Hatred is a professional villain, this is his job. The Monarch just hates Dr Venture. He runs out of money and Sheila tells him to go rob a bank, an obvious act of professional villainy that completely perplexes The Monarch. Later in the same season it's revealed that Sheila was robbing banks when she was Lady Au Pair; I thought this was a nice callback. The Monarch is really a one of a kind villain: he's the real deal. The busy-work of villainy doesn't interest him at all
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Nov 28, 2022 22:51
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QuarkJets posted:Sgt Hatred as the bureaucratic villain was good, literally giving Rusty a survey about how much "menace" he feels regarding spiders and flamethrowers and then having him sign feedback forms after an arching was a good way of separating him from The Monarch. Sgt Hatred is a professional villain, this is his job. The Monarch just hates Dr Venture. He runs out of money and Sheila tells him to go rob a bank, an obvious act of professional villainy that completely perplexes The Monarch. Later in the same season it's revealed that Sheila was robbing banks when she was Lady Au Pair; I thought this was a nice callback. The Monarch the True Villain, Rusty the true Reluctant (anti)Hero
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Nov 28, 2022 22:57
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QuarkJets posted:The Monarch is really a one of a kind villain: he's the real deal. The busy-work of villainy doesn't interest him at all
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Nov 28, 2022 23:04
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Monarch only joined the GCI to get benefits, or so he says early on. Specifically, he wanted in on the dental plan.
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Nov 28, 2022 23:33
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I love that they still have never given an answer for why The Monarch hates Dr. Venture. At this point I assume even The Monarch doesn't remember.
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Nov 29, 2022 00:31
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limp_cheese posted:I love that they still have never given an answer for why The Monarch hates Dr. Venture. According to photos in the show, clone Rusty stole his toy truck when they were both 7 or 8. He never knew the original Rusty.
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Nov 29, 2022 00:50
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Mr. Nice! posted:According to photos in the show, clone Rusty stole his toy truck when they were both 7 or 8. He never knew the original Rusty. Or he was playing with it out-of-turn and wouldn't give it back soon enough. Or it was Rusty's truck and he wouldn't share it. Or maybe Lil' Monarch was bawling because he was in yet another "candid" picture with the Venture family and he didn't want to be on the front lawn. He had to go to the bathroom and didn't want to go in his pants again. And it wasn't tinkles. He had to push a mess. Hell, maybe Monarch already heated Rusty because even though he wasn't aware of the details, the obvious friction between Jonas and Morpho was palpable, and it put him on edge because when he got home, he knew his dad would be in one of his moods.
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Nov 29, 2022 01:39
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I have this long theory about them actually being childhood friends at too early an age to remember. "You ABANDONED me! You ABANDONED my HATRED!" feels like it's about more than the Monarch no longer being allowed to arch Venture, it's that Monarch is angry that Venture forgot him. After Malcolm's parents died, it probably never occurred to anyone to take him to the old Venture compound, or perhaps it was no longer convenient to Jonas to allow it (now that he couldn't show the Morpho's wife any more of his potent science, hem hem). When Venture Sr. said he couldn't come over and play anymore, that cold response made young Malcom think his only friend/playmate/"enemy" had abandoned him. (This conveniently makes it also Venture Sr.'s fault, the controlling dick.) tl;dr he's been playing cops and robbers / cowboys and First Peoples with Rusty since they were six years old, and Rusty grew out of it after Malcolm moved away, but Malcolm never did.
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Nov 29, 2022 02:31
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QuarkJets posted:The Monarch is really a one of a kind villain: he's the real deal. The busy-work of villainy doesn't interest him at all The fact Red Death, the most fearsome and competent villain int he show is a fan and respects The Monarch on a professional level says just how good The Monarch is at hatred and villainy
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Nov 29, 2022 04:41
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God I wish Red Death would show up more.
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Nov 29, 2022 05:02
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Kesper North posted:
That, or Rusty just plays along because it's his brother and he loves him. And unlike his twin, this is a brother he truly understands.
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Nov 29, 2022 05:14
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:The fact Red Death, the most fearsome and competent villain int he show is a fan and respects The Monarch on a professional level says just how good The Monarch is at hatred and villainy I think it's down to what kind of antagonist someone wants to be. Hatred is in it for the rules and regulations. Phantom Limb is in it for the pomp. The Monarch is in it simply to be able to hate someone with every ounce of his being. Red Death is able to respect the amount of hatred The Monarch can have for Rusty. I think that's also why it is so easy for Hatred and Phantom Limb to be able to switch sides or join/create new teams. The villainy isn't the main part of their thing, the villainy allows them to get what they want out of it. So hatred can join Venture because he still gets to follow Guild/OSI rules. Even when he's kicked out, he's still trying to enforce the rules. Phantom Limb is able to start The Revenge Society because it still allows him to be theatrical and over the top. The Monarch hates all of it when he's not allowed to arch Rusty anymore, because that's all he was into.
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Nov 29, 2022 05:31
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Cojawfee posted:Whoa-level post. That was just lovely. Thank you.
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Nov 29, 2022 06:17
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Was excited to start the double length S4 finale. Was overjoyed to find out that half of that extra time was devoted to figuring out obscure sexual slang. Looking forward to finishing the show so I can understand what the hell you guys have been talking about for the past 2 days
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Nov 30, 2022 01:07
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Which definition was the right one? It absolutely was Brock's.
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Nov 30, 2022 01:15
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Remember after the S4 finale when we all thought the show was over because it felt like such a perfect ending?
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Nov 30, 2022 01:25
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Alan_Shore posted:Making Hatred a pedophile was an awful mistake and has aged incredibly poorly. He molested the boys for God's sake I thought it was implied that the flawed super soldier serum they gave him made him a pedophile. Also, with regards to Malcom and Rusty, I think Rusty used to bully Malcom and THAT'S why the Monarch personality came out with such a mad-on for Rusty. I also think both of them were mind-wiped at some point which is why neither remembers that picture of them and their parents together. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 01:29
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BIG HEADLINE posted:I thought it was implied that the flawed super soldier serum they gave him made him a pedophile. Yeah it was, but that's still not good haa
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Nov 30, 2022 01:31
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As much as some of the pedophile stuff was uncomfortable, it lead to a GREAT Hunter line and delivery in Hostile Makeover. "He's a 9 year old boy genius and he's cut as a drat button. You're the LAST thing I'm putting on him!"
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Nov 30, 2022 01:34
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BIG HEADLINE posted:I thought it was implied that the flawed super soldier serum they gave him made him a pedophile. They are both Rusty clones, that's why they don't remember any of that
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Nov 30, 2022 01:44
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bull3964 posted:As much as some of the pedophile stuff was uncomfortable, it lead to a GREAT Hunter line and delivery in Hostile Makeover. There isn't a single loving Hunter line in the series that isn't 100% pure gold. Though, my favorite Hunter moment is at Sphinx HQ where he just rips the phone out of the wall to chuck it at that one dork slow clapping.
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Nov 30, 2022 02:03
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