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kirbysuperstar posted:AI Art is bad and should be banished, thank you for coming to my GDC talk Up next, AI generated gacha NFTs for fun and profit!
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Nov 30, 2022 03:16
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Here's my hot take: Pixel art is not art, because the  artist did not create the pixel, they just clicked a square on their computer and it showed up.Same deal with mosaics. God made those stones, not you. Unless you forged your own synthetic stones to make a mosaic out of; in that case, you're an artist.
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Nov 30, 2022 03:22
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Lucid Dream posted:I'm excited for tools that lower the barrier to entry and allow people to make larger scale games with smaller budgets, but I also 100% recognize the ethical problems with displacing existing workers. I feel that way every time automation shifts the balance of power from workers to employers whether we're talking about AI art or a factory that makes ketchup. It's so much worse when the models are trained on stolen art, and that's solvable through law in principle, but the end result would be the same even if the models were only trained on art that they had secured the license to. I don't think many folks are ignoring the ethical issues or cheering that folks are going to have their livelihood affected, but at the same time it's hard not to see the writing on the wall and start planning on how we'll all have to adapt to this new technology in order to continue competing in this capitalist hellscape. Maybe we'll get lucky and the courts will decide that it's too disruptive, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. I think the stolen art part of it is really the only unique thing happening here. The rest of the problems are the same story of automation that has been playing out again and again since Ned Ludd: replacing workers with machines or turning skilled jobs into less skilled, worse paid ones. That's bad and this example is maybe the shiniest, newest expression of that trend, but I don't think artists are in an unusual situation compared to other workers. No matter what your job is, automation is coming for you faster and harder - until the last few decades it's been easiest to automate physical work, but creative and knowledge-driven work has never been immune (think of all the people Microsoft Office has put out of work by making it so any idiot can run a spreadsheet or typeset a document). The technology is here to stay, and the technology is not necessarily a bad thing in itself, it's how and by whom it is put to work that is the issue. How to ensure that it is controlled by workers not bosses is left as an exercise to the reader, but I don't think that solo indie devs with no budget using it to make better-than-programmer art are the problem any more than students being able to make nice-looking homework and edit their work without Tipp-Ex are the problem.
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Nov 30, 2022 03:24
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Just got out of a meeting with my fellow Franciscan monks. The printing press will surely destroy the illuminated manuscript and Brother Jose has no career as a brewer.
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Nov 30, 2022 03:28
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AI art is probably going to do more for recognition of artists' names and styles than centuries of college art history courses has. If anything it will draw more distinct parallels between the artist and their style because evoking the artist is how you get that style out of ai-generated images. I think we're at a point with technology and tools available that any sufficiently-skilled professional artist could replicate the style of any other artist in existence. What makes a name like H.R. Giger stand out is their creative vision and their ability to think up something that no one else was thinking up. His genius wasn't the technical works he put down on paper, it was the ideas that drove them. If a million kids across the country suddenly go to AI Art tools and start generating H.R. Giger-based images, in what way does that hurt him or his estate? It draws more recognition to his body of work, it solidifies them in the zeitgeist at a far more broad level than possible before. It raises the value of his originals, because "oh poo poo it's an original by on that guy we all use to generate art off of" If someone with his same level of creative vision popped up today, they could create a distinct, unique style that would enter the zeitgeist much the same way. The viability of the creative mind that drives the creation of art is not diminished in any way, if anything it becomes more valuable because of its ability to create a new style for the AI to steal. It makes developing a unique style a commercially viable product on its own. That's good for the artist. What is potentially diminished is the technical grunt-work of sitting around laboring over replicated drawings your corporate overlords want you to produce. And yeah, that absolutely sucks for the people affected, but it doesn't affect "Art", it affects the commercial production of art assets (also: it's very, very good for everyone who isn't an artist getting paid for commercial technical work). e: vv Quote me on it and check back in on that idea in 5 years and let's see where we're at 
deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 03:30
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deep dish peat moss posted:AI art is probably going to do more for recognition of artists' names and styles than centuries of college art history courses has. If anything it will draw more distinct parallels between the artist and their style because evoking the artist is how you get that style out of ai-generated images. Oh my god
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Nov 30, 2022 03:34
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al-azad posted:Just got out of a meeting with my fellow Franciscan monks. The printing press will surely destroy the illuminated manuscript and Brother Jose has no career as a brewer. The printing press did destroy illuminated manuscripts and worse yet encouraged the poor and impious to learn to read. The church has never recovered.
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Nov 30, 2022 03:37
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deep dish peat moss posted:I'm just curious why Of course I'm talking about what it will be capable of in the future. That's literally what we're all talking about, lol. But I'm also talking about the discourse and the conversations surrounding AI art right now, which absolutely steer the tech towards stealing art on the sly and then replacing art positions with AI. If you want to talk about what AI art can do TODAY, then here. Here's what AI art is already capable of, supposedly (as claimed by the person who posted it on LinkedIn) just straight out of Midjourney with no cleanup:   That last one with potions was attached to this post:  Wherein this person draws a line directly from the "problem" that actual human beings can't fulfill ridiculous demands at work to the "solution" of AI art. Bing bong, so simple. If you are a full time commercial artist and you claim that you can't imagine how AI art could negatively affect your livelihood, then you are a liar or an idiot. mutata fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 03:45
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I've never found anyone with that opinion who is able to enunciate why beyond general fear of a technology they don't understand. Are you fearful of imaginary visions of what you think it might do in the future, or because of something you have actually personally seen it do (as in: you witnessed the entire process that went into creating the final product)? Because I have been banging away with it for 2 years in parallel to developing actual art skills and as I have transitioned into the art industry as a new artist who never drew a thing before 2018, I do not at all see it as a threat to my ability to survive in the industry. If anything, I see it as a nice skill to have on my resume and something that has assisted me with overcoming my disability to produce commercially-viable human-driven work.
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deep dish peat moss posted:If a million kids across the country suddenly go to AI Art tools and start generating H.R. Giger-based images, in what way does that hurt him or his estate? It draws more recognition to his body of work, it solidifies them in the zeitgeist at a far more broad level than possible before. It raises the value of his originals, because "oh poo poo it's an original by on that guy we all use to generate art off of" Ok but you understand people already got to colleges and learn about bodies of work in art/movies right? This has been happening for a while now. At least a few decades. And once again, where is the H.R. Giger art in the training data coming from? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to teach these students how to create their own training data for AI models? I remember my time in college well after digital art became a thing and we were still told to make original works because on an academic level plagiarism is Bad.
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Nov 30, 2022 03:46
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deep dish peat moss posted:AI art is probably going to do more for recognition of artists' names and styles than centuries of college art history courses has. If anything it will draw more distinct parallels between the artist and their style because evoking the artist is how you get that style out of ai-generated images. lol, I don't loving care that the Kinkade or Giger estates will survive just fine. What the gently caress is all of this nonsense?
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Nov 30, 2022 04:00
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Hammer Bro. posted:Do you still feel that you got nothing of what the human behind the tools intended to convey? I genuinely don't understand why it is so hard to grasp: "AI generates assets not art. But you can still use assets in composition to create artistic expression." I feel like I've been repeating myself, am I just not expressing this clearly enough?
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Nov 30, 2022 04:13
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SweetBro posted:I genuinely don't understand why it is so hard to grasp: "AI generates assets not art. But you can still use assets in composition to create artistic expression." I feel like I've been repeating myself, am I just not expressing this clearly enough? Oh, I grasp your opinion. I just think it's pretty bunk.
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Nov 30, 2022 04:16
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deep dish peat moss posted:Also worth noting is I have a disability called Aphantasia that makes me incapable of having an "image" in my mind. I think only in words. Without the AI step here I'd be severely limited in what I could do as an artist, and I'm insulted by the insinuation that that precludes me from having true creative value You'd be surprised. While it's not been rigorously studied to my knowledge, there's anecdotal evidence that aphantasia correlates positively with aptitude in visual arts and may be more prevalent in professional artists than the general population. Visualization is often a stumbling block that must be overcome for artistic proficiency: it's hard to draw well from imagination if you can't draw from reference, and it's hard to draw from reference when you're drawing what you think instead of what you see. It's great that you're finding AI useful for concept art but you're selling yourself short if you think you're not capable of the same without it.
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Nov 30, 2022 04:16
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mutata posted:Oh, I grasp your opinion. I just think it's pretty bunk. Clearly wasn't referring to you as you aren't making an argument against a point I'm not making.
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Nov 30, 2022 04:19
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deep dish peat moss posted:
Whoa, hahaha aphantasia is not by any definition of the word a "disability", and I know just as many professional artists who have it as those who don't. Jesus christ.
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Nov 30, 2022 04:21
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All right, settle down a bit. This is an emotive subject on a few levels but let's not go at each other.
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Nov 30, 2022 04:31
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On that note, how about a completely different topic? What things would y'all put on your launch checklists? So far this is what I have: Push new build Update trailer? Announce on social media+discord Remove game from Early Access Review Steam store page language to make sure it doesn't reference Early Access Launch stream? (on Steam/Twitch?) Retweet press To be clear, this is the "actions to take on the day the game goes live" checklist. Stuff like "reach out to press to try to drum up as much interest as possible" will be happening well in advance of that moment.
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Nov 30, 2022 04:59
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Whatever your steps may be the final step should be logging off the internet for 24 hours.
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Nov 30, 2022 05:03
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al-azad posted:Whatever your steps may be the final step should be logging off the internet for 24 hours. Maybe I'm making this up, but isn't this what the Super Meatboy dev did and it took him a while to find out he was suddenly rich?
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Nov 30, 2022 05:05
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al-azad posted:Whatever your steps may be the final step should be logging off the internet for 24 hours. Gonna test this advice out myself starting now.
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Nov 30, 2022 05:07
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I don't know where else to put this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY6k8jWi5Ws
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Nov 30, 2022 05:28
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Currently I'm glad my past self came up with a good enough tree of framework nodes that it doesn't explode when I start needing new viewports for implementing my intended UI design on my current project. Good work past me, you saved me a hell of a headache with your flexible design.KillHour posted:I don't know where else to put this I do remember it because I'm still using it  my joints do hurt by the way, this video is calling me out Left 4 Bread fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 05:50
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Gotta update to get those awesome geometry nodes though.
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Nov 30, 2022 05:56
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Odd Wilson posted:my joints do hurt by the way, this is calling me out time to OD on magnesium Not even sure what to do with the duck adventure at this point, I got the duck in, made that quick house map and then drew a big fat blank, I should just mess with things and see what sticks but sometimes my brain is completely bass awkwards with that
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Nov 30, 2022 05:56
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I added automated item transporting into my game and it was shockingly easy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqdYVR5xopU I thought it was going to suck, but I had been leaving myself little hooks and callbacks in the machine and inventory code just in case I ever found time to implement it. Which I'm dumbfounded by, because usually that kind of bullshit blows up in my face and I have to delete and rewrite 90% of it. Not totally satisfied with the visuals, but the one thing I wanted was to transport items without the clutter of pipes or conveyor belts, so it's doing that at least. It can just grab anything from a nearby inventory and pump it into another nearby inventory.
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Nov 30, 2022 06:23
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xzzy posted:Gotta update to get those awesome geometry nodes though. My cofounder has been going nuts about geo nodes for like the last year.
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Nov 30, 2022 08:17
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working on those corridors.... it's a tricky problem i've got something that kind of works right now  what it does not do yet is ensure that all (or any, tbh) of the rooms are connected so it might generate isolated rooms or sections as seen in many of the examples here. what i'm thinking might be enough is to do another pass and see if i can connect the unconnected room(s) to an existing corridor, and if that fails just remove them. the method i'm using right now is really simple but it was the first thing that came to mind - first i mark all possible connection points (in this case walls that have a wall to the left/right or above/below of them) in each room - then i go through all those possible connections in each room and draw a line straight to the left. if it finds another connection point then it's a possible corridor - i discard all corridors that don't have enough space for walls - then i do the same but with a line straight up
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Nov 30, 2022 08:32
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Your Computer posted:working on those corridors.... it's a tricky problem The most common way that I've seen this done is with an abstract graph representation of the rooms as nodes and corridors as edges. You then use a spanning tree algorithm to find a minimum connectivity graph and create corridors between the rooms connected by the edges. Now you know they are all connected and you can add more corridors or intersections or whatever else.
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Nov 30, 2022 08:36
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KillHour posted:The most common way that I've seen this done is with an abstract graph representation of the rooms as nodes and corridors as edges. You then use a spanning tree algorithm to find a minimum connectivity graph and create corridors between the rooms connected by the edges. Now you know they are all connected and you can add more corridors or intersections or whatever else. problem with this is that it's not enough to just have them connected, it needs to follow a bunch of rules like i don't want the corridors to overlap, i don't want them going diagonally or intersecting a room and i don't want the walls of corridors and rooms to overlap or be adjacent to each other i feel like simply connecting all the rooms is a trivial problem since i could just draw a line between the center of each room to the center of each other room if that was all i wanted, but getting it to look aesthetically pleasing is an entire can of worms that doesn't seem to have an easy answer...
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Nov 30, 2022 08:44
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Your Computer posted:problem with this is that it's not enough to just have them connected, it needs to follow a bunch of rules like i don't want the corridors to overlap, i don't want them going diagonally or intersecting a room and i don't want the walls of corridors and rooms to overlap or be adjacent to each other Then instead of making a bunch of rooms and then trying to connect them, I recommend placing a room, seeing if it can be connected to an existing room with whatever connection rules you like, and then moving it if it can't. You can include connecting to an existing corridor as a valid solution or not. Another option is to place a room, have it spawn a corridor that then terminates in a new room, rinse and repeat until you've filled out enough of the space. Edit: Also, do you want your corridors to not have corners? Because it's a lot easier to connect rooms if your corridors can have corners, even 90 degree ones. KillHour fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 08:50
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On the subject of not being very good at art and trying to make art anyway I decided to share the current character sprites from my project:   And what they currently look like in action:  This is actually my first revision to them, they originally had eyes (one black square with one white square behind) but I feel the only way to make this work is to lean into the abstraction. Of course that does affect how the background tiles should look as well, maybe use different colors. Aiming for something like the SSI Gold Box games, maybe.
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Nov 30, 2022 10:14
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KillHour posted:Edit: Also, do you want your corridors to not have corners? Because it's a lot easier to connect rooms if your corridors can have corners, even 90 degree ones. in general i feel like a lot of the potential solutions to this stuff is really easy/intuitive for a human to solve on a piece of paper but actually writing down the steps so an algorithm can do it is borderline maddening.
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Nov 30, 2022 10:32
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deep dish peat moss posted:Here's my hot take: When did you get a lobotomy? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 30, 2022 10:42
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And I'm sure solutions to this exist and have been used but I'm not sure what they'd be. For what I'm doing I actually watched a video on how Spelunky was put together and I'm going that way- instead of designing rooms and corridors I'll design whole modular chunks of a set size. For Spelunky what they do is the level is divided into cells, and the agent stamps an entrance chunk onto one cell on the top row, moves randomly along stamping cells until it gets to the bottom, and stamps an exit cell there. The thing is, all the cells it stamps are "open" to each other, there's a clean path that you don't need to use bombs to get through or anything. It then goes through all the cells that don't have anything in them and stamps chunks in there that aren't necessarily open to the main path, so you may have to do some digging. I have no idea how I'll express this in GML terms when the time comes and right now I'm just trying to get the basic turn-based engine to work.
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Nov 30, 2022 10:43
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Your Computer posted:working on those corridors.... it's a tricky problem I worked on a roguelike a couple of years ago. I remember getting sick of trying to line all the rooms up, so I just generated a bunch of intersecting corridors and then selected random tiles along the paths and blew them out into rooms. Had some quirks, but it definitely didn't have any orphaned rooms.
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Nov 30, 2022 11:07
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Tummyache posted:I worked on a roguelike a couple of years ago. I remember getting sick of trying to line all the rooms up, so I just generated a bunch of intersecting corridors and then selected random tiles along the paths and blew them out into rooms. Had some quirks, but it definitely didn't have any orphaned rooms. I'm preetttty sure that's how all the Mysterious Dungeon games work
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Nov 30, 2022 11:30
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Maxwell Lord posted:And I'm sure solutions to this exist and have been used but I'm not sure what they'd be. The original Spelunky is an open project so could load it up in gamemaker and poke around.
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Nov 30, 2022 13:45
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Your Computer posted:i have nothing against 90 degree corners but that requires you to already know which two points you want to connect and figuring that out is another can of worms. I don't know what your room structures look like in the code, but the easiest algorithm would be roughly - Create a new room - Find the nearest existing room - Find the point on each room closest to the other room that is valid for a corridor (is straight, isn't already a corridor, etc) * The simplest way to do this is to just loop over all the points that could have a corridor connection, but there are fancier algorithms for it as well if that is too slow - Use pathfinding algorithm of your choice to connect the two points * If you want to try to favor straighter paths, you can make corners a higher pathfinding cost than continuing straight by keeping track of the direction of the last piece of path * If you want to avoid intersections, make the cost of tiles adjacent to existing walkable tiles infinite * If you want to try to avoid corridors right next to each other, you can make pathfinding cost relative to the distance to the nearest existing walkable tile.
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Nov 30, 2022 16:26
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Re AI It sucks that it's going to put artists out of a job but also its possible it lets other people make art. At the turn of the 20th century photography came around and threatened a bunch of artists' jobs, but look how that turned out. If you're a traditional artist doing traditional art but digitally you've already gone through the effort to learn one technology to supplant another. Take the next step and learn how to utilize AI to make more art. The silver lining is that you won't have to make five incrementally more menacing versions of the same poison potion bottle or eighty variations of generic NPC faces anymore.
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Nov 30, 2022 16:27
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SweetBro posted:I genuinely don't understand why it is so hard to grasp: "AI generates assets not art. But you can still use assets in composition to create artistic expression." I feel like I've been repeating myself, am I just not expressing this clearly enough? My initial read was that your stance was that AI generated content could not be art period. The above sentence is closer to my (and I think others') interpretation of the situation though there might still be one disagreement about semantics. I do expect a lot of AI output to be lazy, uninspired, and much closer to assets than art. But I don't want to discount the situations in which an operator deliberately modifies and refines prompts to fulfill their specific artistic vision. I don't feel like there's a meaningful distinction between taking AI-generated assets and composing them with Photoshop to create artistic expression and refining prompts / tweaking AI settings to cause the AI to produce those assets into the desired composition as artistic expression. Unless you're taking the stance that artistic expression is not art. Which is actually perhaps a stronger question since, "What is art?" is still an active philosophical discussion. tl;dr: I want to use those potion bottles in my game.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:33
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