|
cat botherer posted:Do you remember the BLM protests, the pipeline protests, or have you just generally seen how cops behave? Yes. And, shockingly, they still did not involve machinegunning down the crowd.
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 17:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 19:15 |
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Political parties are not unitary groups. The fact that there is variance in positions within a political party is part of what allows it to function at all; it does not mean that "they" (again with the categorical) don't care about "their" stated beliefs. And yet when push comes to shove they "can't" get enough of them to come together to support their constitutents. Acebuckeye13 posted:My man everyone posting in this thread is some variety of left of center and if you tried to get everyone to order a loving pizza it would end with someone getting strangled with their own entrails. Parties in the US have never and will never be in 100% lockstep on every issue. Why is it that they aren't in lockstep on an issue that matters a great deal to the people who are supposed to be reliable voters.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 17:57
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:Do you remember the BLM protests, the pipeline protests, or have you just generally seen how cops behave? The cops are not going to mass murder a bunch of white rural blue collar workers. I think I can just definitively state that without further explanation.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 17:57
|
|
|
selec posted:Have you literally never donated food, or money to a strike fund? Have you never written a rep to tell them to support the workers? Do not make this about ensuring the purity of fellow posters or posting about them, do not post about posters. This goes for all others present, there is plenty to talk about that isn't posting about posters and if anybody cannot stop they will be stopped.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 17:59
|
|
|
Twincityhacker posted:Yes. And, shockingly, they still did not involve machinegunning down the crowd. Well, you don’t have to gun them down when you can blind them (ask Linda Tirado) or kettle and mass arrest them or give them a rough ride (Freddie Gray) or just beat the poo poo out of them in the streets or pepper spray them from a few feet away (Lt John Pike). Is all that okay as long as it’s not shooting?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 17:59
|
|
|
Gerund posted:Lets walk it out: will there be enough workers to run the most critical trains, prioritized trains, necessary-for-national-defense trains? Those are much easier to define (and defend the choice of) rather than rooms full of Canadian children with Canadian parents who would dislike knowing their kids were called "Canada's most worthless pupils". Let's say half of the workers walk off the job. How are those critical trains going to move around with so many trains idle and yards barely functioning? How are those critical trains going to be assembled from whatever consists are currently moving around the country? You'd probably see massive problems if even 20% of workers were off the job at the same time, because the delays would pile up quickly. The second half of your answer indicates that you don't know how school systems operate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:00
|
|
|
selec posted:Well, you don’t have to gun them down when you can blind them (ask Linda Tirado) or kettle and mass arrest them or give them a rough ride (Freddie Gray) or just beat the poo poo out of them in the streets or pepper spray them from a few feet away (Lt John Pike). The cops are also not going to do that to a bunch of white rural blue collar workers.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:01
|
|
|
Nucleic Acids posted:And yet when push comes to shove they "can't" get enough of them to come together to support their constitutents. Why are you asking stupid questions you already know the answer to? Union voters and interests aren't the only voters and interests. And people like Sinema are dumb motherfuckers who love to be contrarian and/or are deeply corrupt. And it doesn't matter anyway because this vote requires 60 votes, not 50.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:01
|
|
|
If the railroad workers strike they won't be shot at by the police. We're more civilized now. But if they go to a protest for civil rights? All bets off.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:02
|
|
|
Why were the BLM protestors out getting beaten and thrown into blacksite vans anyway? Probably because they were tired of getting so much support and love from the government's armed wing, just like railroad strikers will!
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:07
|
|
|
Epic High Five posted:Do not make this about ensuring the purity of fellow posters or posting about them, do not post about posters. This goes for all others present, there is plenty to talk about that isn't posting about posters and if anybody cannot stop they will be stopped. Can I rephrase the question to DV to ask if they are aware of these things you can do to help a strike out, rather than if they personally have done these things? They posted as though they didn’t believe they could have any impact, positive or negative on a strike, the examples I gave showing this to be obviously untrue. (Full disclosure: I have done these things, personally, because solidarity)
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:07
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:Why are you asking stupid questions you already know the answer to? Union voters and interests aren't the only voters and interests. And people like Sinema are dumb motherfuckers who love to be contrarian and/or are deeply corrupt. And it doesn't matter anyway because this vote requires 60 votes, not 50. The interests the Democratic Party is listening to right now are those of the rail bosses and companies scared of a strike disrupting their profits.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:07
|
|
|
Some of you are so comically over the top. No one is getting "machine gunned," you dopes. If it comes down to a strike, it will be an extremely precarious situation for Biden and the people in charge and killing protestors is not going to be on the agenda. It's obvious that paid sick leave and workers' rights are important to Democrats, which is why Democratic states have some of the best protections of this kind in America. Paid family leave, etc. are signature Biden proposals and not getting it was downright embarrassing for him. It is extremely doubtful that this is Biden doing the bidding of... *checks notes* Big Rail. What Biden doesn't want is the economy collapsing any further and losing the next election and any upcoming special elections (which, by the way, would have way worse repercussions for labor than getting a mediocre deal that half of them agreed to). If Biden had the power to have the rail companies agree to the deal, why the gently caress wouldn't he do it? small butter fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Nov 30, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:08
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:Why are you asking stupid questions you already know the answer to? Union voters and interests aren't the only voters and interests. And people like Sinema are dumb motherfuckers who love to be contrarian and/or are deeply corrupt. And it doesn't matter anyway because this vote requires 60 votes, not 50. ed: small butter posted:Some of you are so comically over the top. No one is getting "machine gunned," you dopes. If it comes down to a strike, it will be an extremely precarious situation for Biden and the people in charge and killing protestors is not going to be on the agenda. quote:It's obvious that paid sick leave and workers' rights are important to Democrats,
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:09
|
|
|
selec posted:Well, you don’t have to gun them down when you can blind them (ask Linda Tirado) or kettle and mass arrest them or give them a rough ride (Freddie Gray) or just beat the poo poo out of them in the streets or pepper spray them from a few feet away (Lt John Pike). Twincityhacker posted:We're gonna go with a non-labor example for a quick second. Remember the Black Lives Matter protests in 2020? Remember how while plenty of Bad poo poo happened to protesters and how leadership were murdered, no cop machinegunned down the crowd and the facists that did kill people were punished? EDIT: AKA, no, I think it's loving bad, it's just not "mass murder" bad.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:10
|
|
|
selec posted:Can I rephrase the question to DV to ask if they are aware of these things you can do to help a strike out, rather than if they personally have done these things? They posted as though they didn’t believe they could have any impact, positive or negative on a strike, the examples I gave showing this to be obviously untrue. I'd be amazed if anybody wasn't aware of the notion that there are things one can do to help with a strike, I'd personally prefer arguing about what's going on instead of sending a multiple choice test out to everybody to ensure they are indeed completely politics brained in this politics thread at noon on a weekday. Seems like all that'd do is give you an answer you already know and keep posting about posters going with a brand new sheen.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:14
|
|
|
Why is “machine gunning” the sole use of force you’re focused on? There is a huge menu of abusive practices cops get up to. We’ve had I think three protestors or strikers hit by civilians with their cars intentionally in the last month or two in my state alone, and the cops don’t do poo poo. That’s a great example of cops choosing a tactic (non-enforcement) that harms people. Not to mention the videos of cops just randomly beating the poo poo out of people at protests. Also not okay! Or running them over with their cop cars. It seems like you’ve staked out a claim that depends on police overreach only reaching a level it hasn’t yet recently to argue that state violence wont be used, but it already is being used against strikers.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:15
|
|
|
Twincityhacker posted:EDIT: AKA, no, I think it's loving bad, it's just not "mass murder" bad. Also, can we just all agree to shut up about the machine guns?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:15
|
|
|
tagesschau posted:Let's say half of the workers walk off the job. How are those critical trains going to move around with so many trains idle and yards barely functioning? How are those critical trains going to be assembled from whatever consists are currently moving around the country? You'd probably see massive problems if even 20% of workers were off the job at the same time, because the delays would pile up quickly. You're the one who proffered that Canadian pupils and rolling stock was a one-to-one comparison! If you dislike how the analogy works once given scrutiny, get mad at yourself. If somewhere between half and 20% of the current workers (sure, whatever) are critical for national security, then coercive force or force deployed against labor agitation has a number to aim for and a number of ex-train-eous cars to shift. The idea that there IS a goal to shoot for is why I think the "we have declared the following Canadian students to be surplus to requirements" was a poor analogy in the main.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:18
|
|
|
Rigel posted:The cops are also not going to do that to a bunch of white rural blue collar workers. Why? Could you maybe get into details about what number of white rural workers labor demonstrations need to have in order to get immunity from police beatings? Police beat and oppress people for many different reasons, and if you think an us-vs-them mentality can’t be easily set up in this kind of situation you have much, much more faith in police in america than I do.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:18
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:Could'a fooled me! Look, there's actual data we could discuss, and then there's whatever your comment is. https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/countries/united-states/poverty-in-the-us/best-and-worst-states-work-america-2020/ Top 18 are Democratic states. The bottom states are Republican. The biggest predictor of whether or not a state is poo poo for workers is the state's partisan makeup. You're frustrated with the electoral reality of America and are taking it out on Biden.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:20
|
|
|
Cygnids posted:Why? Could you maybe get into details about what number of white rural workers labor demonstrations need to have in order to get immunity from police beatings? Seeing as how cops used to do the very thing Rigel claims they won’t do any more, I’m curious too, as to what the reasoning behind that assertion is. Did the cops somehow get more class conscious, or more racist than they were during the 20th century? Like what’s the mechanism of change that we think landed us here?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:20
|
|
|
Cygnids posted:Why? Could you maybe get into details about what number of white rural workers labor demonstrations need to have in order to get immunity from police beatings? Police (and military in an enforcement role) are always rational and calm and follow the rules, especially when faced with people they consider lesser or weak or, just for example, were given a green light by Biden and Congress to get back to work by any means necessary. Sounds like you need a reminder to back the blue.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:21
|
|
|
small butter posted:Look, there's actual data we could point to, and then there's whatever your comment is. Yeah, it's a good cop/bad cop thing. I'm not debating that on average, Dems are marginally less awful. I'm "taking it out on Biden" because he could do the right thing here, but he chooses not to.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:22
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:Everyone is just being so mean to Biden, poor guy. Which is what? Edit: And do you have any comment about why Democratic states rank at the top and Republican states at the bottom for worker protections and wages?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:23
|
|
|
Rigel posted:
They won't. I don't know why people expect Republicans to help give Bernie a win here. And even if they do vote for it it will probably be because it isn't going to pass. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Nov 30, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:24
|
|
|
small butter posted:Which is what?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:24
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:Not use his power to crush the workers. Isn't that obvious? You're speaking in generalities. Can you be more specific?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:25
|
|
|
small butter posted:You're speaking in generalities. Can you be more specific? e: Again, I'm not debating that Dems are marginally less awful on average. That's not the win you seem to think it is. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 30, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:26
|
|
|
Rigel posted:Quick clarification from earlier, apparently we are talking about zero vs 7. Management wanted 0, labor wanted 4 and to also resolve another complicated issue regarding being penalized for emergencies. Bernie's solution basically says "well we aren't going to resolve that complicated issue here, but how about we just bump it up to 7 and call it good" and the unions seem to be saying that would be fine too. So the one that is actually likely to go up for a vote is the 0 days one, and the scrambling is in response to Bernie either saying or strongly hinting he will kill anything that has less than 7? That's a good position to take, since nuking the whole thing is de facto siding with the unions which seems like the good-not-perfect option when everything else on the table will end in a strike anyway. Just make sure the split off bill is voted on first, easy peasy, which it will be if it's an amendment instead.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:26
|
|
|
Rigel posted:From there, Pelosi caved and said there would be a vote on the Bernie amendment. Then some Republicans, perhaps sensing an opportunity to benefit from something they might end up having to vote for anyway, are trying to get to the left of Biden on this. We have Cornyn publicly saying there will be significant GOP support for Bernie's amendment, and 3 others who you wouldn't expect (Rubio on twitter, Hawley, and Cruz) have come out at least hinting that they'll vote for the 7 days. Apparently Cornyn walked it back. Best source I have: https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1597987428362760193
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:31
|
|
|
Shooting Blanks posted:Apparently Cornyn walked it back. Best source I have:
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:32
|
|
|
selec posted:But if you wanted the sick leave protections why not play hardball and combine them and whip the hell out of your caucus? This just gives them an out. "Whip the hell out of your caucus" has had an infamously poor success rate in the current Congress. And if the bill can't even pass the House without heavy whipping then there's no point even sending it to the 50/50 Senate where it needs 10 GOP votes or the nuclear option. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:he opened with 'yes, it does, but we haven't done it in a long time.' because he knows about the Pullman strike, and chose to excise it from consideration on grounds of inconvenience. Personally, I think that the national rail strikes that happened in the 1990s are a much more relevant comparison than the rail strikes that happened in the 1890s. In fact, the Pullman Strike isn't included in your original claim because it was never declared illegal by Congress. Hell, most modern anti-strike legislation didn't exist yet. The Railway Labor Act wasn't passed until decades later. Taft-Harley was still more than half a century away. Labor law in general was in its infancy; there were no minimum wage laws, overtime/work hours laws, or even child labor laws, let alone worker protections such as the Fair Labor Standards Act. I'm pointing out that literally every single national railway strike in living memory ended peacefully, without federal troops being sent out to shoot anyone - even if they were declared illegal by Congress forcing a settlement on them. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:it is not, in fact As I pointed out above, Congress did not in fact establish that, because Congress never declared the Pullman Strike illegal. The suppression was driven by the executive branch with authority obtained via judicial injunctions - primarily at the hands of Cleveland's Attorney General, a leading railroad attorney who urged Cleveland to intervene in this localized strike against the will of local and state authorities because he thought those authorities were too pro-labor.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:32
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:Biden is taking positive action to break a strike. He could do nothing here and it would be better, or he could force the RR to give into a few very modest demands such as not penalizing up to 4 sick days. "Do nothing," like let the strike happen and possibly lose the election because of it and gently caress labor even harder via Republican control? How does he force the RR to do anything without Congress? You call it "marginal." In NYC, we have free pre K and the legendary $15 hour minimum wage.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:34
|
|
|
small butter posted:"Do nothing," like let the strike happen and possibly lose the election because of it and gently caress labor even harder via Republican control? What election? He kicked the can down the road to push this past the midterms, he doesn't give a poo poo and him coming out on the bosses side makes it clear.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:35
|
|
|
Just to be clear because there's a lot of hyperbolic language being used, "siding with the railroad" in this instance is enforcing a compromise agreement that gives the unions most of what they asked for and most of the unions (but representing only ~40% of the workforce) approved. So when we're talking about selling out to big railroad and machine gunning strikers the actual effective action congress is taking is enforcing a deal that much of the union themselves approves. Now it's pretty fair the one thing they're hung up on is pretty loving important, but we're not discussing this in terms that reflect reality.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:36
|
|
|
selec posted:Why is “machine gunning” the sole use of force you’re focused on? There is a huge menu of abusive practices cops get up to. Because people claim that is what will happen to striking workers? It reminds me of the self-defeatist rhetoric that people use to justify why the left can't possibly do anything successful - that success will lead into just all the leftists being murdered. Yet when pressed on the recent evidence of this omnipresent ultra-competent Gestapo that kills leftists at mass level, people find it very difficult to do that. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 30, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:37
|
|
|
Nucleic Acids posted:What election? He kicked the can down the road to push this past the midterms, he doesn't give a poo poo and him coming out on the bosses side makes it clear. In addition, the Dems are setting things up to have much worse RR labor problems later on as more strikes happen (possibly wildcat) and the industry continues to hemorrhage workers. This short-term fix will absolutely make this a worse problem going into 2024, in addition to being a blatant gently caress-you to the Dem's labor constituency. Jarmak posted:Just to be clear because there's a lot of hyperbolic language being used, "siding with the railroad" in this instance is enforcing a compromise agreement that gives the unions most of what they asked for and most of the unions (but representing only ~40% of the workforce) approved. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 30, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:38
|
|
|
small butter posted:"Do nothing," like let the strike happen and possibly lose the election because of it and gently caress labor even harder via Republican control?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 19:15 |
|
|
Nucleic Acids posted:What election? He kicked the can down the road to push this past the midterms, he doesn't give a poo poo and him coming out on the bosses side makes it clear. 2024. A long strike would absolutely decimate the economy and supply chain, bring up inflation, increase demand for many things, and force the Fed to keep increasing rates. This will easily bleed into the next two years and Democrats will own it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2022 18:42
|
|