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That isn't a joke btw
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Dec 1, 2022 02:32
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| # ? May 29, 2024 05:15 |
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Oh, I wasn’t joking. I absolutely don’t remember how I got there but it was almost entirely in earnest. ….almost.
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Dec 1, 2022 02:55
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read episode 7!!!
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Dec 1, 2022 03:36
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Nyaawn posted:read episode 7!!! I’m so close to finishing rereading all the others though and it is wild the connections I’m able to make already - plus I apparently do not remember much of 3 at all. e: and I might read an LP or something of 4 because I don’t remember the murders at all and what I do remember I do not want to reread Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Dec 1, 2022 |
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Dec 1, 2022 03:56
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Nyaawn posted:read episode 7!!!
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Dec 1, 2022 04:03
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but I wanna solve the murders 
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Dec 1, 2022 04:23
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Rockman Reserve posted:but I wanna solve the murders please, we are begging you, look with love instead
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Dec 1, 2022 04:31
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😬 Finefinefine, I probably will, just answer these couple of questions for me if you’d be so kind: Are the murders(/the incident - we’ve got a lot of red text about a lot of the deaths being murders but idk, the game board itself is so nebulous and weird and all we know is everyone died. I’m kind of thinking Battler did something that led to a disaster and all the games are, ugh, idk, let’s just call them murders for now just nvm) actually reasonably solvable? And if so, have I been kinda on the right track at all lately?
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Dec 1, 2022 04:53
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Rockman Reserve posted:😬 Finefinefine, I probably will, just answer these couple of questions for me if you’d be so kind: Yes.
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Dec 1, 2022 05:32
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Nyaawn posted:Yes. :screams inaudibly in the key of the second question:
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Dec 1, 2022 06:34
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okay I’m like ten minutes into 7 and I have entire Thoughts
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Dec 1, 2022 09:05
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Umineko ENDING spoilers do not read Overall it was fine I guess. I like that Ange got to meet Tohya. Kinda sad that he's not really Battler anymore but he was able to let go of Battler's "soul" and let it drift off to the Golden Land so that's nice? My sister is pretty unhappy that the theme of not believing in witches/magic was kind of lost and even inverted but I don't really mind too much. Some lingering questions: 1. What actually happened on the island? I think there's no 100% exact definite answer because that's the whole point of the Single Truth being not worth learning. My guess is it was something like a freak accident with the explosives and nobody was actually at fault. That's why Ange was so sad about reading it, an accident reduces everyone's death to meaningless bad luck. 2. The mechanics of the Beatrice/Shannon/Kanon trinity. Is Yasu just constantly spiderman-changing in and out of their Shannon and Kanon costumes? Does the family know? What do George and Jessica think? There's even scenes where both are in the same room with other people including Battler so wtf??? I'm planning to read the umineko manga at some point since I heard some things are explained a little more straightforwardly there. For Higurashi - y'all suggest the VN first or the anime? E: I joked to my sister that umineko is neither fantasy nor mystery but a western. But thinking about it more it feels kinda true? The story is not really about the events in it, it's about the characters and their struggles. Like once upon a time in the west or something Yaoi Gagarin fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Dec 1, 2022 |
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Dec 1, 2022 09:13
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VostokProgram posted:2. The mechanics of the Beatrice/Shannon/Kanon trinity. Is Yasu just constantly spiderman-changing in and out of their Shannon and Kanon costumes? Does the family know? What do George and Jessica think? There's even scenes where both are in the same room with other people including Battler so wtf??? This is where everything we see being fiction is critical. IIRC early on it's pointed out that Shannon and Kanon being scheduled for Island Work at the same time is unusual. Maintaining both personas at the same time is theoretically possible and thus permissible in a story, but would not have worked out—nor probably even been attempted—IRL. Only the narration (i.e. Beatrice) and compromised characters ever acknowledge Shannon and Kanon being in the same room at the same time.
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Dec 1, 2022 10:32
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VostokProgram posted:For Higurashi - y'all suggest the VN first or the anime?
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Dec 1, 2022 13:27
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Nate RFB posted:VN, I have some nostalgia for the anime but it's pretty bad all told and was only really an acceptable alternative for the handful of years when only it was available in English vs. the VN. 
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Dec 1, 2022 14:04
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LordMune posted:This is where everything we see being fiction is critical. IIRC early on it's pointed out that Shannon and Kanon being scheduled for Island Work at the same time is unusual. Maintaining both personas at the same time is theoretically possible and thus permissible in a story, but would not have worked out—nor probably even been attempted—IRL. Only the narration (i.e. Beatrice) and compromised characters ever acknowledge Shannon and Kanon being in the same room at the same time. I suppose that makes sense. But do George and Jessica actually know? And they're cool with it? One of the theories we had was that at one point they actually were two separate people, but one died and the other took on their persona out of grief or something. But it sounds like the right answer is that they are definitely the same person.
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Dec 1, 2022 19:06
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VostokProgram posted:I suppose that makes sense. But do George and Jessica actually know? And they're cool with it? Maria of course recognises people by voice and personality (see: 'bad mama'). Yasu changes between Beatrice, Shannon and Kanon right in front of her and she still acknowledges them as different people. I'd note that a few people comment on the resemblance and assume they're brother/sister, even though Kanon and Shannon are always vague about whether they're actually blood related.
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Dec 1, 2022 19:23
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VostokProgram posted:Umineko ENDING spoilers do not read According to the manga, exactly what was presented in 7 as the truth. You'll notice that during the events of 7, what happens to Battler is never detailed, and Beatrice's body goes mysteriously missing before Eva wakes up. This links back to the ending of 8, in the Magic ending, where Shannon guides Battler to the hidden cave.
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Dec 1, 2022 19:37
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Cyouni posted:According to the manga, exactly what was presented in 7 as the truth. You'll notice that during the events of 7, what happens to Battler is never detailed, and Beatrice's body goes mysteriously missing before Eva wakes up. This links back to the ending of 8, in the Magic ending, where Shannon guides Battler to the hidden cave. Well that kind of sucks. I had hoped that was just Bern bullshitting. I don't like evil Kyrie and Rudolf
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Dec 1, 2022 19:52
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Ending: Yeah what we see in the ep7 tea party is presumably the contents of Eva's diary that Ange reads, or at least consistent with it. It's difficult to explain why she'd say nothing in public and then lie privately.
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Dec 1, 2022 19:53
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I think I have a love-hate relationship with Umineko
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Dec 1, 2022 20:20
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Gotta turn that into a Love Love relationship
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Dec 1, 2022 20:25
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I'm not sure I remember it being that clear cut at all but I also only really internalized the Yasu's backstory chapters that the manga added in terms of things to go to in it for extra answers. Also there are some things like the postgame short story Our Confession that sort of assume it's still ambiguous. It's just that it's very plausible especially if you have very uncharitable reads on the cast which is what the population et large would assume.
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Dec 1, 2022 20:30
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Gaius Marius posted:Gotta turn that into a Look With Love relationship
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Dec 1, 2022 22:47
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VostokProgram posted:Well that kind of sucks. I had hoped that was just Bern bullshitting. I don't like evil Kyrie and Rudolf ridicule.ogg (dont google that if you haven't played episode 7)
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Dec 2, 2022 00:27
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Nate RFB posted:I'm not sure I remember it being that clear cut at all but I also only really internalized the Yasu's backstory chapters that the manga added in terms of things to go to in it for extra answers. Also there are some things like the postgame short story Our Confession that sort of assume it's still ambiguous. It's just that it's very plausible especially if you have very uncharitable reads on the cast which is what the population et large would assume. I mean Ryukishi did say the manga is "an official answer from him"  I'm not surprised he did it either, there is def a chunk of people who would just not fully understand the game's mysteries (or, the game) unless they had it explained to them frame by frame like that.
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Dec 2, 2022 00:34
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without love, it cannot be seen and even with love you might need special glasses
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Dec 2, 2022 04:58
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Nyaawn posted:I mean Ryukishi did say the manga is "an official answer from him" There are a chunk of people that insist that even the manga is just Ryukishi fooling you and pulling the wool over the eyes of those who can't see the real real real truth. So yeah, probably necessary.
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Dec 2, 2022 05:48
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Made it to the episode 5 credits. Spoilers for episode 8 as usual. The trial started out pretty strong, but I thought that Battler feeding lines to Dlanor was a waste of time. Throwing for content, you might say. Half that stuff was already litigated earlier. It's especially dumb when Battler's motivation is to put Beato out of her misery--he decides that the best he can do is to sacrifice himself to make sure... she can still exist in this game she hates to be in? She said herself she would rather them both die together because he still can't remember his childhood promise to her. (Figured that one out myself!) Which, wouldn't that promise have been between him and Shannon? Why does she expect him to remember while she is in a false persona? The bit about putting a living Kinzo in Natsuhi's bed seemed gratuitously misogynistic, but I can see that scene being there to suggest using a similar train of logic on Shannon/Kanon. It's pretty clear that Battler needs to focus on Kanon's suspicious behavior from earlier this game. Was Lambda just going to let Bern win like that when she could pull the rug? I guess Lambda gave up immediately on trapping her weird gf forever. None of these fake-rear end witches actually have the mental stamina to commit to eternal anything.
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Dec 2, 2022 13:27
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So Math posted:Made it to the episode 5 credits. Spoilers for episode 8 as usual. Did you mean for episode 5? Or are you re-reading or something? Unclear if I can post at you with full story spoilers or not
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Dec 3, 2022 09:29
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VostokProgram posted:Umineko ENDING spoilers do not read This makes a lot more sense once you account for the fact that Genji/Kumasawa are in on it. No one aside from them (and Kinzo when he was alive I guess) is aware. It might seem far-fetched for Jessica (etc) to not notice that Kanon is the same person as Shannon, but it makes more sense once you realize that Genji/Kumasawa are vouching for Kanon's existence as a separate person (and Jessica and others aren't aware of the fact that a successor to Kinzo exists, so they have zero reason to doubt what the servants they say). So maybe at some point Jessica thought "Kanon looks sorta like Shannon," but would have immediately dismissed that after the other servants acted like Kanon is real (because there's no reason she would be aware of for them to be lying). Another thing that I don't think you mention (but may have realized) is the whole reason for the Shannon/Kanon stuff to begin with - Yasu's injury from being dropped by Natsuhi. It can be reasonably inferred that Yasu was "assigned male at birth" and then Nanjo and everyone decided to treat them as a girl after the surgery from the injury. Yasu grows up, in puberty gradually realizes something is wrong, and upon solving the epitaph realizes not only her birth circumstances, but the fact that she was conceived from incest. Kanon is basically Yasu exploring a male gender (and we see this further manifested in Lion, who seems to live as a sort of androgynous man). If someone misses all this stuff (which is very easy to do - I certainly didn't notice it at first) all the Shannon/Kanon stuff is kind of confusing and unsatisfying as an explanation. But everything makes a lot of sense once you get a better idea of what happened.
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Dec 3, 2022 11:53
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VostokProgram posted:Did you mean for episode 5? Or are you re-reading or something? Unclear if I can post at you with full story spoilers or not They know random bits of spoilers from future episodes and are under the impression that they understand far more than they do as a result.
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Dec 3, 2022 21:12
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Finished 5's tea parties. Kind of thought that Battler would implicate Kanon for acting suspicious in this episode, but I guess that's for later.VostokProgram posted:Did you mean for episode 5? Or are you re-reading or something? Unclear if I can post at you with full story spoilers or not This is my first proper read of Umineko. I was introduced to the story years ago when my spouse first became obsessed with it. I wasn't as interested in the story at the time. I had them tell me what was going on so I would be able to keep up with their read. These are things that I know about Umineko, which are massive spoilers for the end of it: - Beatrice is representative of Sayo (Shannon). She is Kinzo's secret incest bastard, whose mother is his secret non-incest bastard that lived in Kuwadorian. She is technically the first born in Battler's generation and the heir to the gold. - When she found the gold she also found a pile of explosives left over from when the island was a military base. - Shannon has rigged the island to detonate at the end of the second day, killing nearly everyone regardless of any other murders taking place. - Shannon faked her death in episode 1 and continued to kill other people. - Kanon is also Sayo. They are the same person. - Beatrice is in love with Battler. She wants him to reciprocate these feelings while he plays her game in Purgatory. - Kyrie is Battler's biomom. She only thought she miscarried. - Rudolf and Kyrie get a turn to be the killers in episode 8. The events of this episode are what really happened. - Battler survives in 1998 under a new name. He is an amnesiac and writes stories about Rokkenjima trying to remember what happened. There are probably some other things I am forgetting, but those are the major ones. I don't actually know how the murders happened in this episode yet. Or in 1, 2, and 4. Episode 3 seemed pretty blatant about it, but I suppose Ryukishi could still pull something out of his rear end for that one.
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Dec 4, 2022 23:16
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This isn’t even a spoiler without any context but on a reread it is astounding how dumb Battler must be if Hempel’s Raven fucks him up so bad in game 3 before the first twilight. “What?!? You mean that if my broad theory is wrong it means the contrapositive is true?!?! WHAT TWISTED LOGIC IS THIS?!”
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Dec 6, 2022 07:01
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So Math posted:spoiler comments Ah, this is good to know. The good thing about the spoilers you saw is that they only cover the "how/who" and not the "why" (which is really the biggest mystery and core to the story). In some ways this can even be a good thing, since a lot of information about the "why" is present in earlier episodes (but is really hard to make use of at that point). Since you know the basic material facts of what's going on, you can instead focus a lot on the "why." One "tip" I'd give is that the "magic scenes" are usually highly relevant to this. A lot of people interpret "magic scenes aren't showing what actually happened" as a reason to dismiss them when trying to solve the mystery, and while it can be useful for confirming the material viability of theories, you also lose a lot of the information about characters and their motives if you ignore them. So it's important to ask "what does this scene mean?" even if it's not literally happening as displayed.
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Dec 7, 2022 00:48
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Spoilers for all the episodes: The hints for the whydunit feel pretty subtle in the question arcs. I didn't really remember anything pertinent for Battler's sin. My sister thought of the conversation on the beach where Shannon mentions how Battler left saying he would be back and stuff, but we were very unsure if that was actually it. It's a very minor line that you can read as just establishing Battler's personality. I don't even think there was anything to suggest that Shannon took it seriously. I believe it's the only scene in 1-4 that establishes this. Because of how subtle it is, even though we knew about that conversation, we couldn't really believe that it was the motive for everything. Partly this is from being unfamiliar with Ryukishi's style. I didn't know how far he'd go to bury the mystery. If I were to read another mystery he wrote I think I would get it sooner because now I know he's willing to do crazy poo poo.
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Dec 7, 2022 06:35
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Ytlaya posted:Ah, this is good to know. Thanks for not being weird about it.  My guess for the whydunnit uses what I mentioned previously, that Battler made one of those anime childhood promises to Shannon. Well, that and revenge. I do hope there's more to it than that. The romance elements have been pretty badly forced in my opinion; Ryukishi flipped a light switch between episodes 4 and 5, and suddenly Battler reciprocates the feelings of the insane tsundere who has been committing existential torture against his entire family. I can tell that romance is something that Ryukishi wants to be core to the story. Just, he kind of squandered a chance to do a slow burn on Battler's side of it in favor of doing the bulk of the character change off screen. There's also a question about the magic. Not whether the magic inside the board is real--that's been settled since episode three, and five completely dropped the ruse in favor of using the furniture cast as a metaphor for Beato trying to fight off Lambda's control. I mean Purgatory itself. The characters never really litigate this argument, but they talk broadly enough that it kind of sounds like they are, especially in the question arcs before the red text is introduced. Sure, it could be that Purgatory is real and that the nature of reality is determined by games such as the one we are watching. There is plenty of fourth-wall breaking between the pieces and the players of the game, to the point where I think you'd have to say that the board pieces are basically magical actors who are constantly goofing off. In the Fragment that episode 5 would make, I do think that Natsuhi would have been imagining Beatrice, but it's kind of contrived that she would imagine up Ronove, Virgilia, and Gaap exactly the way they were drawn in previous episodes, and she would imagine them constantly talking about the events of a higher level game that she should not know about and just ignores every time it is mentioned. My perspective has been anti-magic since the first episode. While I know this is not the anti-magic interpretation that's offered in the end, I think it's neat to imagine that all of Purgatory is going on inside Shannon's imagination. It's the most recent iteration of her imagining about imagining about killing everyone. First, Shannon imagines different ways she would kill everyone and toy with them the whole time. That's why the murders happen differently in each episode, and the reason that she's hyper-competent in her ability to get the murders done and rope the other servants into the con. It's why the entire cast ignores simple details that would make everything fall apart. (It was raining. Forget Hideyoshi's cigarette, doesn't anyone notice that Eva was wet?) She also wants to wipe out the family early enough so that she can flirt with Battler. Now it's kind of hard to imagine a Battler who would want to flirt while his family's corpses are still warm, so she gets meta. Shannon imagines a Battler who lives in her mind and can see her plans. He hates her when she wants him to hate her, and he does a 180 and loves her when she wants that instead. Even Ange's story is part of her imagination; Shannon grew up so badly that she cannot imagine any kind of childhood for Ange besides being an orphan, getting bullied, and growing detached from the world. The imagined 1998 is warped in ways to suit Shannon's ego -- Ange confirms that the condolence money Shannon sent out was received, and that thousands of people the world over care about what Shannon did and why.
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Dec 7, 2022 13:13
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I was curious about how morbidly people talked about Higurashi Gou/Sotsu so I looked into it and drat, I am extremely glad I was not a Higurashi fan when it was airing. It seems like it was a genuinely painful project for basically everyone involved. my condolences.
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Dec 7, 2022 15:49
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The eternal story about Higurashi is that it wrapped up so nicely with its 8 chapters with just about no stone left unturned and every attempt at sidestories or follow ups have greatly struggled to justify their own existence and more often than not were just bad.
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Dec 7, 2022 15:54
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Gou and Sotsu were just... awful. Some writers and editors really sat down and thought yes, this is a good idea, let's animate this tedious and repetitive anime, the fans will love it. And then they recycled whole scenes from Gou into Sotsu. Just a series of baffling decisions.
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Dec 7, 2022 19:19
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