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Zeron posted:More sick days? The current amount is zero. I'm not sure the final amount forced through but it was either 0 or 1. The 24% raise is because this contract has been in negotiations since 2019 and lasts through 2024. That's about 4.8% per year, not even above inflation. The pay was never the dispute, the issue was incredibly unethical leave policies that fired workers if they took a single unplanned day off because they got the flu. The railway owners profit margins have absolutely exploded in this timeframe, giving into every single union request would impact profits minimally and make the entire industry safer and more secure. The profits they saw came about by cutting 30% of workers to reorganize the entire industry to run on the thinnest margins which has caused disruption to every industry that relies on them and killed workers outright. I'm not saying the workers don't deserve more sick days. They do, and I know it's a much more complicated situation than how I framed it. But I framed it that way deliberately because that's how it's going to be presented to millions of Americans, and I'm telling you that making the people of the country suffer over the sick days of otherwise well-compensated workers is not going engender sympathy to their cause or the cause of labor as a whole.
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Dec 2, 2022 01:12
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The economy exploding and people suffering over the holidays because union members who made over six figures before getting a 24% raise wanting more sick days is not going to create the result you want. The opposite, most likely! If people think the railroad workers have it so good, they can literally go apply on the internet and get that $20,000 signing bonus without any sort of experience or background in rail. But people aren't, because the job is a living hell and you get zero sick time.
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Dec 2, 2022 01:15
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I'm not saying the workers don't deserve more sick days. They do, and I know it's a much more complicated situation than how I framed it. But I framed it that way deliberately because that's how it's going to be presented to millions of Americans, and I'm telling you that making the people of the country suffer over the sick days of otherwise well-compensated workers is not going engender sympathy to their cause or the cause of labor as a whole. I do agree that if the elections were around the corner, it would be a bad political move. Thats why they delayed the strike until after the election in the first place (then Biden went "lol, no strike!") Its two years out. There's a reason why newly-elected majorities that have total power rush to pass unpopular things fast, because two years is a very long time and voters forget. I don't think a disruption is going to send the economy into a deep multi-year recession spiral.
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Dec 2, 2022 01:15
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But the optics! we cry as railway workers literally drop dead because they do not have permission to go to the doctor. Edit: Literally all Congress had to do was nothing. Without Congressional actions the railway bosses would have given up long before it came to a strike. Everyone is aware that if it comes to an actual strike the workers will win almost instantly. Zeron fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Dec 2, 2022 |
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Dec 2, 2022 01:16
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Zeron posted:But the optics! we cry as railway workers literally drop dead because they do not have permission to go to the doctor. Yep. Post election, the rail companies likely would have blinked under pressure from the food/ag players. This was a terrible time in labor power for this poo poo to have happened. We can only hope it radicalizes some of the membership.
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Dec 2, 2022 01:21
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The economy exploding and people suffering over the holidays because union members who made over six figures before getting a 24% raise wanting more sick days is not going to create the result you want. The opposite, most likely! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 2, 2022 01:23
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I'm not saying the workers don't deserve more sick days. They do, and I know it's a much more complicated situation than how I framed it. But I framed it that way deliberately because that's how it's going to be presented to millions of Americans, and I'm telling you that making the people of the country suffer over the sick days of otherwise well-compensated workers is not going engender sympathy to their cause or the cause of labor as a whole. This is right-wing, anti-union rhetoric that has absolutely no place in a supposedly left-wing thought space. Emotional appeals urging workers to forego their own material needs "for the greater good" is an attempt to shift responsibility for the RR companies' mismanagement and mistreatment of labor onto the laborers themselves - DARVO: Deny Attack And Reverse Victim and Offender. If a wildcat strike occurs, the victims of that strike are both simultaneously the rail workers themselves (they will not be paid or have medical benefits during the strike), as well as every other working class person in the US.. When posters and professional fommentatore alike engage in rhetoric that frames the situation as "the rail workers striking would have devastating impacts on the already struggling lower class," you have made the victim of the RR companies' mismanagement and abuse the rhetorical perpetrators of an act of abuse on the "rest" of the working class - which they very much are a part of, not apart from.
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Dec 2, 2022 01:25
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I'm not saying the workers don't deserve more sick days. They do, and I know it's a much more complicated situation than how I framed it. But I framed it that way deliberately because that's how it's going to be presented to millions of Americans, and I'm telling you that making the people of the country suffer over the sick days of otherwise well-compensated workers is not going engender sympathy to their cause or the cause of labor as a whole. I'm really not sure that's true - we've been having this (with actual strikes!) over the other side of the pond for months now and there's overall good support for the unions still, despite a media pushing the same union boss fatcats/overpaid drivers narrative.
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Dec 2, 2022 01:27
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I'm not saying the workers don't deserve more sick days. They do, and I know it's a much more complicated situation than how I framed it. But I framed it that way deliberately because that's how it's going to be presented to millions of Americans, and I'm telling you that making the people of the country suffer over the sick days of otherwise well-compensated workers is not going engender sympathy to their cause or the cause of labor as a whole. its people like you that keep framing it that way
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Dec 2, 2022 01:37
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Rigel posted:I do agree that if the elections were around the corner, it would be a bad political move. Thats why they delayed the strike until after the election in the first place (then Biden went "lol, no strike!") Exactly. If this most recent election didn't prove that the population of the US has collective goldfish memory when it comes to politics and voting, I don't know what will.
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Dec 2, 2022 01:39
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I'm not saying the workers don't deserve more sick days. They do, and I know it's a much more complicated situation than how I framed it. But I framed it that way deliberately because that's how it's going to be presented to millions of Americans, and I'm telling you that making the people of the country suffer over the sick days of otherwise well-compensated workers is not going engender sympathy to their cause or the cause of labor as a whole. I'm sorry but this is just concern trolling. It's exactly the same as the "well I agree with you but you're hurting your cause by rioting" BS during the Floyd protests. The only people making the country suffer here are the rail bosses, and the government for choosing not to support the workers.
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Dec 2, 2022 01:42
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I'm not saying the workers don't deserve more sick days. They do, and I know it's a much more complicated situation than how I framed it. But I framed it that way deliberately because that's how it's going to be presented to millions of Americans, and I'm telling you that making the people of the country suffer over the sick days of otherwise well-compensated workers is not going engender sympathy to their cause or the cause of labor as a whole. Do you think that the workers should go on strike to get more sick days?
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Dec 2, 2022 01:42
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Fister Roboto posted:I'm sorry but this is just concern trolling. It's exactly the same as the "well I agree with you but you're hurting your cause by rioting" BS during the Floyd protests. As a warning, my response will be mostly emotional because I live in Minneapolis. But gently caress the suburban/out of town white people who burned down our minority neighborhoods for “the cause”. The movement that could have been built after the murder of Floyd could have been so much better. But it was made much worse by those aforementioned assholes. There’s a reason why our city council is more conservative now than it was then. There’s a reason why activists had to protect our neighborhoods after it kept getting burned down day after day after day. So, yes, gently caress those assholes who were rioting and making our city much worse. Chauvin would have been convicted with the same charges without that poo poo.
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Dec 2, 2022 01:50
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Keyser_Soze posted:if the RR execs are too evil to add a SCK leave accrual plan to their dumbass HR system (probably Oracle lol) they at least should be forced to increase the VAC/PTO plans and also make it easier for their employees to use the loving things (which based on articles is the main reason the emps wanted a SCK plan that they could use for those "last minute sick" occasions since it was taking weeks/months to get a VAC/PTO day approved.) Also whatever "points" attendance system the RR's are using needs to be immediately binned. this is the sort of post we could use more of, even if I don't understand all the acronyms and concepts
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Dec 2, 2022 02:00
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Angry_Ed posted:Exactly. If this most recent election didn't prove that the population of the US has collective goldfish memory when it comes to politics and voting, I don't know what will. Eh...the shockingly poor Republican performance proved the opposite to me. If it weren't for J6 and Dobbs the GOP would have filipped 60+ house seats.
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Dec 2, 2022 02:04
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G1mby posted:I'm really not sure that's true - we've been having this (with actual strikes!) over the other side of the pond for months now and there's overall good support for the unions still, despite a media pushing the same union boss fatcats/overpaid drivers narrative. I'm with you that people would still come down on the side of the unions but I think the US is such a labor hellhole with established anti-union rhetoric that it wouldn't be as clear cut as it might be in Europe.
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Dec 2, 2022 02:07
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Kalit posted:As a warning, my response will be mostly emotional because I live in Minneapolis. But gently caress the suburban/out of town white people who burned down our minority neighborhoods for “the cause”. Bullshit on all of this. Chauvin getting consequences was a landmark and likely wouldn't have happened without forceful demonstrations, and there is no amount of pushback that won't upset fragile whites with regards to organized black protest. Property damage was a rarity at almost all protests during the uprising but that doesn't stop the scared suburbans from freaking out and acting as if it was the end of civilization, including cities where not a single window was broken.
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Dec 2, 2022 02:09
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G1mby posted:I'm really not sure that's true - we've been having this (with actual strikes!) over the other side of the pond for months now and there's overall good support for the unions still, despite a media pushing the same union boss fatcats/overpaid drivers narrative. Trust me, I would love to be wrong. I'm just highly pessimistic about how the American public will respond to the economy potentially getting turbofucked right before Christmas of all times. Rigel posted:I do agree that if the elections were around the corner, it would be a bad political move. Thats why they delayed the strike until after the election in the first place (then Biden went "lol, no strike!") One thing to keep in mind is that with the GOP congress taking over, there's no guarantee that even the existing deal could get passed through the House. There's plenty of Republicans that would be happy to see the economy burn while they get to blame Democrats and Unions. theCalamity posted:Do you think that the workers should go on strike to get more sick days? gently caress, man, I don't know. They deserve better, but I also think a lot of people here are really underrating the potential damage to the economy. I've already said my ideal vision is for the goverment to nationalize the railroads, but for obvious reasons that's not going to happen. e: what in the world is this avatar
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Dec 2, 2022 02:09
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:DNC just announced that they will vote on the new primary schedule this weekend. https://twitter.com/michaelscherer/status/1598467213782142976 Paradoxically, I think that Bernie Would Have Won in 2020 under Biden's proposal (I'm iffier on 2016). A field winnowed by NH and IA is going to be a field that hands SC and a good chunk of Super Tuesday to any candidate that gives a gently caress by a wide margin... as we saw in both 16 and 20. This schedule would have seen Biden more contested in the states that he used to coast to an easy victory. For instance, Biden's 63-17 win in Alabama on Super Tuesday earned him 44 delegates, 1 fewer than Bernie pulled from Nevada, Iowa, and New Hampshire combined. By contrast, Bernie's widest margin in an super-tuesday-or-earlier contest was his 51-22 victory in Vermont. In an ideal world, this kills the Petes and Amys and Steyers and even Warrens (see also: the whitest crowd ever brought to an HBCU) before the first contest happens and makes building a diverse coalition a prerequisite for any candidate to survive to Super Tuesday. The risk is that this inverts the dynamic, with South Carolina and Georgia split between 4 and 5 candidates, while a more.... northern-focused ... candidate cleans up New Hampshire and swaths of Michigan with few challengers above the viability threshold.
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Dec 2, 2022 02:15
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Acebuckeye13 posted:gently caress, man, I don't know. They deserve better, but I also think a lot of people here are really underrating the potential damage to the economy. Why should the workers care about that if the alternative is they get to be in some cases literally worked to death keep the trains moving? quote:e: what in the world is this avatar Yeah, that's extremely 
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Dec 2, 2022 02:15
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Jaxyon posted:Bullshit on all of this. Chauvin getting consequences was a landmark and likely wouldn't have happened without forceful demonstrations, and there is no amount of pushback that won't upset fragile whites with regards to organized black protest. It’s possible a conviction wouldn’t have happened without protests. But it would have happened without riots. The charges were announced before most of the riots occurred. And the evidence was so obvious, that even Trump said that Floyd shouldn’t have been killed. And I don’t think a single person from Minneapolis was charged with arson. It was almost all suburban assholes. So don’t try to act like they’re the “scared” or “freaked out” ones. They were the fuckers inciting poo poo while the activists who live in the city were trying to protect our neighborhoods from them
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Dec 2, 2022 02:23
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Maybe it's not really a clean equivalence between race riots and labor strikes. Maybe.
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Dec 2, 2022 02:27
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Rigel posted:I do agree that if the elections were around the corner, it would be a bad political move. Thats why they delayed the strike until after the election in the first place (then Biden went "lol, no strike!") Example: The Afghanistan pullout. It's one of the first things the Biden administration did and I guarantee it had little to no effect on the midterm elections as it was 2 years ago and Americans have short memories.
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Dec 2, 2022 02:35
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Acebuckeye13 posted:
It looks like striking would be the only way they would be able to get sick days. Yeah, there's a good chance it would cause catastrophic damage to the economy, but is that more important than treating workers right? You must also remember that a lot of these workers will quit and the RR aren't hiring enough people. The damage to the economy could still happen even with this decision.
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Dec 2, 2022 02:37
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Charlz Guybon posted:Pressure Biden to reverse Obama's executive order that exempts the rail roads from the federal contractor rule requiring 7 days paid sick leave? I could see this happening after the holidays.
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Dec 2, 2022 02:41
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Acebuckeye13 posted:
I'm not under any illusion that the consequences of a rail strike won't be bad for everyone, and I don't think anyone else is. But if avoiding those consequences is dependent on forcing people to work under grueling conditions, then it's time to walk away from Omelas. Your ideal vision can happen, but it's not going to happen without a fight.
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Dec 2, 2022 02:45
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Jaxyon posted:I'm with you that people would still come down on the side of the unions but I think the US is such a labor hellhole with established anti-union rhetoric that it wouldn't be as clear cut as it might be in Europe. Teacher strikes are typically supported by the public even though they completely gently caress childcare
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Dec 2, 2022 02:45
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theCalamity posted:
Seems pretty likely this Congressional move removes the short term economic threat but increases the mid/long term risk of there simply not being enough people who want to be railroad engineers because of the abuse by railroad companies backed by Congress.
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Dec 2, 2022 02:49
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Is an example: If the entire world economy is balanced on slave labor (it is), then perhaps the moral thing to do is not to continually go well we can't free the slaves because it'd crash the economy and that'd hurt a lot more people than the status quo. Lookin' at you California. If doing the right thing is -easy- and consequence free then people usually do it! It's when it'd hurt them a little people suddenly get scruples.
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Dec 2, 2022 02:49
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Just give them the sick days, they should have them already, it should be standard practice at all jobs. Does anyone have a quick run down of what the rail workers initial demands were vs. what they're currently getting?
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Dec 2, 2022 02:51
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brugroffil posted:Teacher strikes are typically supported by the public even though they completely gently caress childcare Yeah I know, but people know their teachers have hosed up jobs at this point, whereas rail freight is a bit removed. You're probably right, but still. Kalit posted:It’s possible a conviction wouldn’t have happened without protests. But it would have happened without riots. The charges were announced before most of the riots occurred. And the evidence was so obvious, that even Trump said that Floyd shouldn’t have been killed. Riots were justified. I don't want suburban protest tourists either but not every single bit of property damage was from outside agitators. It doesn't change the fact that people would be clutching their pearls even if no fires were lit.
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Dec 2, 2022 03:19
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Does anyone have a quick run down of what the rail workers initial demands were vs. what they're currently getting? From what I understand the sick days are the only point of contention. The labor unions pretty much got what they wanted on pay increases, but the railroads are absolutely dug in on punishing workers for being sick and not having the psychic power to have scheduled their sick day ahead of time. The railroad business model is built on relying on treating workers as if they are equipment or machines that don't get sick. They don't have enough labor to absorb unplanned days off, and have no interest in reducing their profit to hire more people.
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Dec 2, 2022 03:19
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I'm not saying the workers don't deserve more sick days. They do, and I know it's a much more complicated situation than how I framed it. But I framed it that way deliberately because that's how it's going to be presented to millions of Americans, and I'm telling you that making the people of the country suffer over the sick days of otherwise well-compensated workers is not going engender sympathy to their cause or the cause of labor as a whole. Ah so we're back to the 'dems shouldn't do leftist things for fear of being called commies' style of arguments. The problem is that the dems get called communists anyway. The unions striking or not, will be smeared by the mouthpieces of Capital. Just like any other leftist cause.
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Dec 2, 2022 03:20
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Just give them the sick days, they should have them already, it should be standard practice at all jobs. Hopefully I'm not oversimplifying, but as far as I can tell, it's not over the amount of sick leave time they have. It's because of the lovely attendance policy/advanced notification required of the railroad companies. Here's a good summary: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/13/railroad-strike-negotiations-held-up-by-battle-over-sick-time-policies.html Jaxyon posted:Riots were justified. I don't want suburban protest tourists either but not every single bit of property damage was from outside agitators. I never said, nor do I believe, they were "outside agitators". I think they are assholes who naively believe they are fighting for social justice, when they are actually hurting the progression. Nor am I complaining about pearl clutching. I'm stating why the riots hurt the city that I live in. Which is why I'm pushing back against the "BS" that Fister Roboto is trying to push Kalit fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Dec 2, 2022 |
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Dec 2, 2022 03:21
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Kalit posted:Hopefully I'm not oversimplifying, but as far as I can tell, it's not over the amount of sick leave time they have. It's because of the lovely attendance policy/advanced notification required of the railroad companies. Here's a good summary: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/13/railroad-strike-negotiations-held-up-by-battle-over-sick-time-policies.html Yeah, as far as time off, they do reportedly have a good amount of that, and people who push back by saying they have plenty of PTO are missing the point. In a normal corporate job which also has only PTO and no old-fashioned "sick days", you can call your boss morning of, say your sick, and there's no problem, you just take PTO. But if you do that more than a few times a year for a railroad, you are on the HR track towards discipline and termination. When the labor unions say that want more sick days, they really want "you can call in day of this many times a year without a problem". (though I'm sure they'd want an overall PTO increase too, because why not the job sucks.)
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Dec 2, 2022 03:26
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Rigel posted:From what I understand the sick days are the only point of contention. The labor unions pretty much got what they wanted on pay increases, but the railroads are absolutely dug in on punishing workers for being sick and not having the psychic power to have scheduled their sick day ahead of time. The railroad business model is built on relying on treating workers as if they are equipment or machines that don't get sick. They don't have enough labor to absorb unplanned days off, and have no interest in reducing their profit to hire more people. I don't have a full summary available right now but the workers' demand is a combination of the number of sick days they have, and the abolition of the point penalty system that could lead to termination for same-day call offs. I believe they are also demanding more rest time between shifts but I'm not 100% certain on that. Regardless, this has been discussed multiple times over the last dozen or so pages and I would encourage you to go back and read through them rather than expecting the posters that took the time to comb through the workers' demands and the TA instead of expecting them to reinvest their time and effort into answering the same question for the nth time.
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Dec 2, 2022 03:26
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Lib and let die posted:I don't have a full summary available right now but the workers' demand is a combination of the number of sick days they have, and the abolition of the point penalty system that could lead to termination for same-day call offs. I believe they are also demanding more rest time between shifts but I'm not 100% certain on that. Regardless, this has been discussed multiple times over the last dozen or so pages and I would encourage you to go back and read through them rather than expecting the posters that took the time to comb through the workers' demands and the TA instead of expecting them to reinvest their time and effort into answering the same question for the nth time. I think you replied to the wrong poster. We're saying the same thing in response to a question above.
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Dec 2, 2022 03:28
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Rigel posted:I think you replied to the wrong poster. We're saying the same thing in response to a question above. Yup. Sorry. I meant to respond to this post: Space Cadet Omoly posted:Just give them the sick days, they should have them already, it should be standard practice at all jobs. Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Dec 2, 2022 |
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Dec 2, 2022 03:29
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I think it really comes down to that stupid "points" system (I'm sure Accenture or the like brought it in some magic powerpoint saying "CONTROL THOSE LAZY WORKERS = COST REDUCTIONS!!!") and the fact the workers want to have the ability for last minute call out/sick being available. The railroads could get around not actually having a SICK plan by increasing the VAC/PTO and also allowing flexibility in actually scheduling it, especially last minute - but since the railroads are running lean so the execs can each have a 3rd vacation house - that isn't possible......   Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Dec 2, 2022 |
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Dec 2, 2022 03:32
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Here’s the thing that’s galling. The rail roads that can’t staff themselves adequately have a points penalty system leading to termination that penalizes sick day use. No objective analysis of that will conclude it’s a good idea. These systems are right now without a strike unstaffed to the point of causing massive cargo losses that they are protected against liability for. There should be public conversations about removing carriers liability limitations. There should be public conversations about the safety risks of intentional understaffing on rail. There should be public conversations about public custodianship of them rail lines in the face of gross mismanagement of the rail carriers. Instead we aren’t going to do anything at all about the major issue that is making it impossible to staff these jobs and that nearly everyone other than rail management agrees is abominable. Rail strikes are serious business. Rail strikes are outright revolutionary events historically. There are catastrophically severe economic consequences for even a short (even a week or two) shrike. Not doing anything about the miserableness of life working the rail will: Increase already occurring losses. Amplify the already occurring feedback loop affecting their ability to staff adequately. It makes a future event more likely even it doesn’t immediately spark one in response now.
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Dec 2, 2022 03:41
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