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neaden posted:https://twitter.com/GavinVerhey/status/1599416340476940288?s=20&t=CY99xm4XP4TNO2aGXAO3iw When did legacy turn into such a lovely format that a weird 4 mana creature became a tournament winning card
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Dec 4, 2022 23:39
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neaden posted:https://twitter.com/GavinVerhey/status/1599416340476940288?s=20&t=CY99xm4XP4TNO2aGXAO3iw is this just the angry nature of mtg twitter or are players having major beef with this? i havent played vintage but from the outside it seems like most of the decks barely change and are full of a small pool of the most expensive OP stuff. initiative seems like something easy to take for yourself. is there just no room for creatures or removal if youre jamming the power 9 into every deck? Ii'm missing something, think I've only played 1 or 2 games where dungeons were in play.
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Dec 4, 2022 23:40
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the initiative turned out to be a powerful mechanic in 1v1 because sometimes you just don't get attacked in certain matches, just like how the monarch ended up doing alright
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Dec 4, 2022 23:41
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ELM is a legacy tournament for what it's worth. I don't know if initiative has shown up in vintage. Not sure W initiative has a good d&t matchup, I've beaten it with that. Heard that post has a good matchup against it as well. The reanimator player in the final should've beaten it if not for misplays. Could be that being a new mechanic and new deck people are still figuring out how to go against it.
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Dec 4, 2022 23:45
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Tism the Dragon Tickler posted:When did legacy turn into such a lovely format that a weird 4 mana creature became a tournament winning card because there are a lot of matchups where taking the initiative might as well say 'you win the game'.
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Dec 5, 2022 00:01
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i was looking at random vintage meta decks and this one kind of seems fun just looking at the list: https://mtgdecks.net/Vintage/hollow-vine-decklist-by-swiftwarkite2-1515142 Bazaar of Baghdad seemed like a bad card when I first read it but wow, you could mill some of them lizards, cast em for 0, then summon free vengevines? Summon some other freak when playing a land. Deathrite shaman doing whatever it wants. Exile buncha graveyard to summon a dark souls boss. Only 2 moxes and no tutors!! I want to play that someday.
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Dec 5, 2022 00:06
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Big Leg posted:because there are a lot of matchups where taking the initiative might as well say 'you win the game'. Won't the meta just adjust to this or is that something these formats are supposed to not really have to deal with?
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Dec 5, 2022 00:08
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Big Leg posted:because there are a lot of matchups where taking the initiative might as well say 'you win the game'. Yeah that's kinda my point. What decks let you both a) play this creature at all and then b) continue playing for like 5 turns?
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Dec 5, 2022 00:08
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I don't think Initiative is overpowered, though it's certainly powerful. The fact that they didn't realize it would be playable at all is what annoys me. What makes initiative so strong is you can play an initiative creature on turn 1, leaving your opponent the choice of removing your creature and leaving you with the initiative or playing a creature to try to take it back. Unlike the monarch playing an initiative creature when you already have the initiative still advances you in the dungeon. So they can go turn 1 white plume, t2 go to the second level in upkeep to make white plume a 5/5, then play dungeoneer to go another room dealing a total of 10 damage on turn 2. Even if you remove both those creatures they are only a turn or two off from completing the dungeon and getting a free creature with three +1/+1 counters, or they might just cast chalice or Thalia on turn 1 to make your removal harder. It's not clear if it's the strongest deck in the format yet but it has a strong game against any fair deck.
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Dec 5, 2022 00:09
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Tism the Dragon Tickler posted:When did legacy turn into such a lovely format that a weird 4 mana creature became a tournament winning card additionally Seasoned Dungeoneer and White Plume Adventurer (and Caves of Chaos Adventurer in red) are costed such that they fit extremely nicely into the traditional fast mana chalice aggro shell, which has been a reasonable (if somewhat meta-dependent) deck for a long time - the initiative cards just mean that the clock presented by your giant threats is even faster while simultaneously generating card advantage in a way that lets you grind better (and which is difficult to interact with/gives inevitability against decks that eschew fair creature combat) ilmucche posted:ELM is a legacy tournament for what it's worth. I don't know if initiative has shown up in vintage. It definitely has, but as you say it's still early days and hard to tell if it's a problem or just a good deck that people haven't figured out how to properly account for imo so far this feels like a pretty "normal" emergence/evolution of a new upper tier archetype, most of the whining seems misplaced and seems more to do with MH2 than a couple of creatures giving chalice aggro a new lease on life e: Tism the Dragon Tickler posted:Yeah that's kinda my point. What decks let you both a) play this creature at all and then b) continue playing for like 5 turns? LGD fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Dec 5, 2022 |
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Dec 5, 2022 00:10
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I just don't like how they burned "take the initiative" on a mechanic that's like, oh right remember those dungeons, here's another one
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Dec 5, 2022 00:15
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Khanstant posted:Won't the meta just adjust to this or is that something these formats are supposed to not really have to deal with? i don't think initiative is too overpowered for legacy or anything, but creatures that are relatively easy to cast for prison decks and can win the game singlehandedly if they resolve (even if they die immediately) are definitely good enough to shake things up a bit.
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Dec 5, 2022 00:20
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Tism the Dragon Tickler posted:Yeah that's kinda my point. What decks let you both a) play this creature at all and then b) continue playing for like 5 turns? i only have a bad standstill deck and lands built, so pretty much me
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Dec 5, 2022 00:20
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:I just don't like how they burned "take the initiative" on a mechanic that's like, oh right remember those dungeons, here's another one This is the actually annoying part
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Dec 5, 2022 00:22
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Also if you play them in paper don't be an rear end and bring a second copy of the dungeon for your opponent I don't want to have to write a proxy one on a notepad.
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Dec 5, 2022 00:25
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Oh cool, I don't follow vintage too much so didn't know it was making a splash there too. It'll be interesting to see how the meta shifts over the next few weeks to compensate. As others have said it can be a really difficult mechanic to interact with. The fact one of the initiative creatures untap and the deck plays loads of removal makes it hard to punch through to take it back, and especially to not lose it on the next turn as well. The fact that Trap! is 5 life loss and not 5 damage upsets me as a glacial chasm player
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Dec 5, 2022 00:33
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Abhorrence posted:
Yeh I hate Hambleast but I'm not gonna cancel this guy because he said "thank you" to.someone who complimented him in a video before nerd Wookiee really blew up on people's radars as vile.
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Dec 5, 2022 00:36
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neaden posted:I don't think Initiative is overpowered, though it's certainly powerful. The fact that they didn't realize it would be playable at all is what annoys me. i don't think that tweet is anywhere near saying 'they didn't realize it'd be playable'
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Dec 5, 2022 00:56
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flatluigi posted:i don't think that tweet is anywhere near saying 'they didn't realize it'd be playable' What do you think it means? Because it seems clear him seeing it put up numbers took him completely by surprise.
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Dec 5, 2022 01:01
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HootTheOwl posted:What do you think it means? there is an extremely wide gap between 'surprised to see a full playset in legacy' and 'too blind to think anyone would run it anywhere at all'
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Dec 5, 2022 01:05
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flatluigi posted:there is an extremely wide gap between 'surprised to see a full playset in legacy' and 'too blind to think anyone would run it anywhere at all' Not really. It's from an eternal only set.
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Dec 5, 2022 01:06
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neaden posted:https://twitter.com/GavinVerhey/status/1599416340476940288?s=20&t=CY99xm4XP4TNO2aGXAO3iw IMO it's incredibly easy to think a 3-or-4-mana creature with no protection from Daze, Force, or Swords, doesn't fly, and doesn't disrupt combos would in fact not have a high impact on Legacy. Sheoldred, the Apocalypse ain't exactly tearing up the house.
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Dec 5, 2022 01:11
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HootTheOwl posted:Not really. It's from an eternal only set. do you really think every card meant to be runnable in commander is also supposed to make waves in legacy and vintage? "playable" is being used as a value judgement here, not literal 'is legal in that format'
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Dec 5, 2022 01:28
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Complaining that new cards are good in legacy is incredible stupid
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Dec 5, 2022 01:30
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flatluigi posted:do you really think every card meant to be runnable in commander is also supposed to make waves in legacy and vintage? "playable" is being used as a value judgement here, not literal 'is legal in that format' So which is it because you're now on both sides of the argument here.
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Dec 5, 2022 01:50
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HootTheOwl posted:So which is it because you're now on both sides of the argument here. what do you even think i've been saying, that this response makes any sense?
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Dec 5, 2022 02:09
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flatluigi posted:what do you even think i've been saying, that this response makes any sense? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 5, 2022 02:14
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HootTheOwl posted:I think you're saying whatever you need to cape for wotc. gently caress off dude and put me on ignore if you're going to project so hard you won't even read what i'm writing the devs made a card that was supposed to hang in commander and be playable in commander at a solid level of playability. it ending up in a legacy deck (for however long it sticks around in legacy) can be legit surprising without people needing to go 'wow, these dumbasses didn't think the mechanic would ever see play' especially since the conversation immediately went into people also being unsure why the mechanic was powerful enough to end up there. there's no ~caping for wotc~ here, christ
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Dec 5, 2022 02:16
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flatluigi posted:gently caress off dude and put me on ignore if you're going to project so hard you won't even read what i'm writing 
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Dec 5, 2022 02:17
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Who cares that wotc didn’t predict specific cards being really powerful in legacy of all formats? Like really, sometimes they miss and a card becomes more powerful in a format than they expect and sometimes by a wide margin. If it’s a one off or just becomes a solid but tolerable pillar of the format, great, and if it becomes overbearing hopefully they just ban it. Although, if this is one of those instances where they didn’t actually port the cards to MTGO hopefully that is fixed
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Dec 5, 2022 02:50
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Yeah this seems like a genuine surprise and not a Flusterstorm or True Name Nemesis situation where anyone with a functional brain should have seen they'd be huge in eternal formats
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Dec 5, 2022 03:06
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Charity Porno posted:Yeh I hate Hambleast but I'm not gonna cancel this guy because he said "thank you" to.someone who complimented him in a video before nerd Wookiee really blew up on people's radars as vile. look, i'm not about to go looking at Rudy videos to find it, but at the time that Jeremy was doing His poo poo, rudy made a video that was just nothing but a defense of the guy. i'm not going off one comment on a video i've never watched, i'm going off the fact that literally the only reason i ever knew who Rudy was is because he made a video about how TheQuartering was being unfairly witch-hunted or whatever i didn't even know he was an MTG Finance guy until years later
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Dec 5, 2022 04:14
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Sheoldred, the Apocalypse ain't exactly tearing up the house. lol, not to be pedantic but that card is seeing increasing play in legacy since the doomsday sideboard surprise pivot became popular. It shuts down several decks and dark rit lets you power it out, along with opposition agent and dauthi voidwalker + thoughtseize. Legacy is crazy right now.
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Dec 5, 2022 04:18
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Chakan posted:lol, not to be pedantic but that card is seeing increasing play in legacy since the doomsday sideboard surprise pivot became popular. It shuts down several decks and dark rit lets you power it out, along with opposition agent and dauthi voidwalker + thoughtseize. Legacy is crazy right now. yeah that looked cool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF10yMA9gt4
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Dec 5, 2022 04:55
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I gotta wonder what Unfinity and 40k cards aren't living up to their full Legacy potential due to being paper-only.
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Dec 5, 2022 04:55
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Sit on my Jace posted:I gotta wonder what Unfinity and 40k cards aren't living up to their full Legacy potential due to being paper-only. Stickers, Jerry! I'm telling you! Stickers!!
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Dec 5, 2022 05:46
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Kashuno posted:Who cares that wotc didn’t predict specific cards being really powerful in legacy of all formats? Like really, sometimes they miss and a card becomes more powerful in a format than they expect and sometimes by a wide margin. If it’s a one off or just becomes a solid but tolerable pillar of the format, great, and if it becomes overbearing hopefully they just ban it. We're people complaining as much about Delver 10 years ago?
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Dec 5, 2022 07:12
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Sit on my Jace posted:I gotta wonder what Unfinity and 40k cards aren't living up to their full Legacy potential due to being paper-only. Grand Marshal Macie* + Silence gonna tear it up, I swear *I know, acorn, but still!!!!!
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Dec 5, 2022 07:42
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GoutPatrol posted:We're people complaining as much about Delver 10 years ago? I remember Deliver and Snaps being the two most complained about cards, a lot of it about neither being originally blue.
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Dec 5, 2022 07:57
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GoutPatrol posted:We're people complaining as much about Delver 10 years ago? oh yeah Delver 100% had people bitching up a storm since it was a pretty straightforward improvement to the aggro-control threshold deck(s) that had been good since the format was type 1.5 and people were playing stuff like Werebear/Quirion Dryad/Fledgling Dragon it basically gave those decks exactly what they wanted, supplementing/replacing Nimble Mongoose as a 3 power one drop that traded shroud for a bunch of benefits: FoW pitchability, evasion, and reduced dependence on a stocked graveyard (handy since you were, of course, also running 'Goyf), which (correspondingly) meant you could come online faster (Goose not really having an equivalent to the blind T2 flip)
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Dec 5, 2022 08:11
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