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NZAmoeba posted:Hi thread! I have a question regarding 100 year old wiring! Is that knob and tube?
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Dec 5, 2022 03:35
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devicenull posted:Is that knob and tube? Sure looks like it. The solution to that outlet is to cap the wires and stop using it, and ideally find where it's spliced into the modern wiring and disconnect it entirely (and then pull new romex to it if you need a receptacle there.)
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Dec 5, 2022 03:39
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I have a (probably) very dumb question. I’m trying to re-wire an antique light fixture to replace one in our ceiling. It had been previously wired, but the wiring was in bad shape. I bought some lamp wire to replace what was there. The guy at the hardware store told me to buy the 14 gauge wire. But I can’t get it to fit through the nipple (standard size nipple, I guess). It looks about the same as the old wire. Is there a solution for this? I can’t really run the wire anywhere else.
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Dec 5, 2022 04:22
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A lot of modern lamp wire has thicker insulation to make the wire look heavier-duty, so you might be better off with some individual pieces of thhn stranded wire-- the stuff on rolls at the hardware store sold by the foot. That insulation will be thinner for the same gauge, and that type of insulation is slicker so it'll slide through things more easily.
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Dec 5, 2022 04:30
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Qwijib0 posted:A lot of modern lamp wire has thicker insulation to make the wire look heavier-duty, so you might be better off with some individual pieces of thhn stranded wire-- the stuff on rolls at the hardware store sold by the foot. That insulation will be thinner for the same gauge, and that type of insulation is slicker so it'll slide through things more easily. Thank you! The wire I bought was off one of those spools. Would using a higher gauge wire be dangerous or inappropriate? The fixture will run 3 6-watt LEDs.
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Dec 5, 2022 04:41
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newts posted:Thank you! to prevent something dumb in the future even if you're putting LEDs in, the wire should be able to handle incandescents in the sockets safely. That being said, unless this is a crazy chandelier, you'll be fine with 16 gauge, which is good for 10A continuous, or 16 60W bulbs.
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Dec 5, 2022 05:13
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corgski posted:Sure looks like it. The solution to that outlet is to cap the wires and stop using it, and ideally find where it's spliced into the modern wiring and disconnect it entirely (and then pull new romex to it if you need a receptacle there.)
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Dec 5, 2022 06:09
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Slugworth posted:What leads you to believe that? It just looks like cloth covered wire in conduit to me. There aren't many places where this was a thing. If I saw that around here I could be 100% assured it's knob and tube.
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Dec 5, 2022 14:48
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Qwijib0 posted:to prevent something dumb in the future even if you're putting LEDs in, the wire should be able to handle incandescents in the sockets safely. That being said, unless this is a crazy chandelier, you'll be fine with 16 gauge, which is good for 10A continuous, or 16 60W bulbs. Thank you! That helps a lot.
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Dec 5, 2022 15:03
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Motronic posted:There aren't many places where this was a thing. If I saw that around here I could be 100% assured it's knob and tube. Lots of houses around here have cloth wrapped without knob an tube (or installation of both with and without). Must be a regional/timeframe thing I guess. Edit: That said, even without knob and tube that stuff can be scary to work with if you're inexperienced (like me) because the sheathing and insulation (if there is any insulation) is so fragile. Danhenge fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Dec 5, 2022 |
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Dec 5, 2022 16:28
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Danhenge posted:Lots of houses around here have cloth wrapped without knob an tube (or installation of both with and without). Must be a regional/timeframe thing I guess. Around here you'll find a lot of duraflex NM (cloth wrapped wires in a cloth jacket, the predecessor of romex) which is what it sounds like you're talking about. That's not what's in that picture. Those are individual wires and what I was responding to was the "in conduit" part of that post. Cloth wire in conduit is really, really not a thing unless you're play fast and loose with terminology and talking about BX which is vanishingly unlikely to be in walls around here. Perhaps that was a thing elsewhere.
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Dec 5, 2022 16:38
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Motronic posted:Around here you'll find a lot of duraflex NM (cloth wrapped wires in a cloth jacket, the predecessor of romex) which is what it sounds like you're talking about. That's not what's in that picture. Those are individual wires and what I was responding to was the "in conduit" part of that post. Cloth wire in conduit is really, really not a thing unless you're play fast and loose with terminology and talking about BX which is vanishingly unlikely to be in walls around here. Perhaps that was a thing elsewhere. Oh, yeah, I think I see what you're talking about. The hot and neutral have separate sheathing, right?
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Dec 5, 2022 16:42
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Slugworth posted:Why didn't you just have the electrician do it while he was there, out of curiosity? You're asking questions that are a bit concerning for someone doing electric work - Everyone starts from scratch, and that's fine, but it's best to have a good base understanding before opening up an outlet. He didn't have any on him at the time, and I've been doing a bunch of light replacements already, figured I'd take on the next level work. I know some things, but I suck at knowing the proper terms for things. Slugworth posted:So, for starters, you don't have the wrong type of wire for your outlet, wire is wire. It's just a matter of whether you choose to loop it and put it on the screw posts vs leaving it straight and using the backstab on the outlet. You should always loop it and screw it down, because backstabs are kind of garbage. They're UL approved, code approved, lazy professionals use them, but they're kind of garbage. So if the outlet you bought doesn't have screw posts, get one that does. My unit does have screw posts, but via some black magic, the screw doesn't come out, it'll just loosen and then retighten. But as my wire ends are solid loops, I have no way to get it under the screw. The screws on the older socket can be removed entirely, allowing me to thread it through the wire loop and then screw down nice and secure. This is where my roadblock is. Slugworth posted:Go grab a non contact voltage detector. I'm assuming you shut off the power to pull everything apart, if not, do so. With it all taken apart (like shown in your photo), turn the power back on and use the voltage detector to verify which wire is hot and which isn't. White should be neutral, black should be hot, but the guy before you could have been an idiot, so verify. Then go shut the power off again. Wire the hot to the brass screw labeled line, and the neutral wire to the silver screw labeled line. The old outlet being hooked up diagonally as you saw isn't an issue with a non GFCI outlet, but your GFCI won't function if you do the same with the new one. Neatly tuck the wire back in to the box, taking care to fold the wires, rather than just jamming them in all willy nilly, which will just put stress on your connections. I have a healthy respect for electricity, so yes I was very careful to cut power at the breaker and confirm with a tester that it was off. I was also able to confirm that the right-side wire is the hot one, as they're both the same colour so the only way to know was with a tester. So you're saying, should I be able to overcome the screw issue I talk about above, I would wire this so that both cables are at the same end (but opposite silver/brass sides) as opposed to how I discovered the older socket wired. The installation instructions on the GFCI socket were very helpful in explaining the difference between the brass and silver sides at least! And yes, the wiring on this part of the house is knob and tube.
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Dec 5, 2022 17:47
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NZAmoeba posted:My unit does have screw posts, but via some black magic, the screw doesn't come out, it'll just loosen and then retighten. But as my wire ends are solid loops, I have no way to get it under the screw. The screws on the older socket can be removed entirely, allowing me to thread it through the wire loop and then screw down nice and secure. This is where my roadblock is. See, this is the kind of thing people are talking about when they say your questions are concerning. NZAmoeba posted:And yes, the wiring on this part of the house is knob and tube. You really shouldn't be touching this. If there's any saving it someone who knows what they are doing should be doing this work. Someone who not only knows how to do it with the minimum likelihood of damaging that crusty old insulation (i.e. by being able to move the wires as little as possible while preparing them for the new outlet) but who also and more importantly knows when to call it unsafe to use if it comes to that. This is 100% a safety issue. You are in the deep end of "outlet replacement" here. This is not a fire timer job, it's not something safe to learn on Youtube/SA.
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Dec 5, 2022 18:04
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Motronic posted:There aren't many places where this was a thing. If I saw that around here I could be 100% assured it's knob and tube.
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Dec 5, 2022 19:25
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Even if it's old BX the solution is still to replace it, but it doesn't really look like the BX I've seen around my area.
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Dec 5, 2022 19:57
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Motronic posted:This is not a fire timer job I think it is in this case with your typo. 
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Dec 5, 2022 22:53
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Well good news, I happened to be talking with an electrician about another job, and when I asked for their advice on the new socket, they just went and did it for me. I was dumb, that "loop" was just a well bent over wire, so I was majorly over thinking it.
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Dec 6, 2022 05:45
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Is there such a thing as a 'dummy' 5-15 plug with plastic blades, a metal ground pin, and a lug on the outside to attach a ground wire? I need to provide a ground for a piece of equipment, but I don't have a way to run a dedicated ground wire. I'm hoping I can use an outlet ground.
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Dec 9, 2022 16:25
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fatman1683 posted:Is there such a thing as a 'dummy' 5-15 plug with plastic blades, a metal ground pin, and a lug on the outside to attach a ground wire? I need to provide a ground for a piece of equipment, but I don't have a way to run a dedicated ground wire. I'm hoping I can use an outlet ground. Of course not. This would risk overloading the ground capacity of the circuit and/or any number of weird and dangerous situations to occur. How is this device being powered? If you want a code compliant way to do this you're going to have to be real specific about the type of equipment. It should have a cut sheet that specifies how it is to be grounded or at least the options for it which can then be compared to what you have to work with.
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Dec 9, 2022 16:38
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If it needs a ground, why is the plug not already grounded? Is it normally supplied by a 5-15 receptacle? I'm getting major  vibes here
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Dec 9, 2022 16:39
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fatman1683 posted:Is there such a thing as a 'dummy' 5-15 plug with plastic blades, a metal ground pin, and a lug on the outside to attach a ground wire? I need to provide a ground for a piece of equipment, but I don't have a way to run a dedicated ground wire. I'm hoping I can use an outlet ground. https://desco.descoindustries.com/DescoCatalog/Grounding-Hardware/Banana-Plug-Adaptors/09838/ I use these in the lab for ESD control and things like that. Not designed for massive amounts of fault current though; we use some Leviton bus bars that get directly routed back to the panel with beefier wire, and some single-pole connectors whose name escapes me right now for making the equipment connection.
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Dec 9, 2022 17:50
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movax posted:https://desco.descoindustries.com/DescoCatalog/Grounding-Hardware/Banana-Plug-Adaptors/09838/ That is 100% not okay to attach to a piece of equipment.
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Dec 9, 2022 17:52
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What, no potted plants around?
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Dec 9, 2022 20:46
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Dec 9, 2022 21:02
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fatman1683 posted:Is there such a thing as a 'dummy' 5-15 plug with plastic blades, a metal ground pin, and a lug on the outside to attach a ground wire? I need to provide a ground for a piece of equipment, but I don't have a way to run a dedicated ground wire. I'm hoping I can use an outlet ground. Either link the equipment, or pull the nameplate power draw. If it's something weird like a 100w 24v radio that wants a ground, that'll probably be fine. Or a stereo that's fed from a 2-prong, but has a grounding wire lug to make the AM/FM radio work better.
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Dec 9, 2022 23:03
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Motronic posted:Of course not. This would risk overloading the ground capacity of the circuit and/or any number of weird and dangerous situations to occur. How is this device being powered? The equipment in question isn't powered, it's a patch panel for shielded network cables. All of the powered equipment has its own grounding through the power source, but I need to ground the drain from the shielding as well, and that's done through a separate ground wire on the patch panel. Normally the cabinets are attached to a common ground through a busbar in a datacenter or server room, but I'm doing this in a rented house so I need something simpler. e: movax posted:https://desco.descoindustries.com/DescoCatalog/Grounding-Hardware/Banana-Plug-Adaptors/09838/ This seems like exactly what I need, thanks! fatman1683 fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Dec 10, 2022 |
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Dec 10, 2022 04:54
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fatman1683 posted:The equipment in question isn't powered, it's a patch panel for shielded network cables. All of the powered equipment has its own grounding through the power source, but I need to ground the drain from the shielding as well, and that's done through a separate ground wire on the patch panel. Normally the cabinets are attached to a common ground through a busbar in a datacenter or server room, but I'm doing this in a rented house so I need something simpler. No, that's not at all what you need. But you're going to do it anyway. One of any number of issues with doing this without doing it right is the potential to energize the entire rack due to specific types of building wiring faults. It's literally better to NOT do anything than to do this.
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Dec 10, 2022 14:54
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Motronic posted:No, that's not at all what you need. But you're going to do it anyway. Ok, then what's the correct way to do this, given the restrictions I'm working with?
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Dec 10, 2022 16:56
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fatman1683 posted:Ok, then what's the correct way to do this, given the restrictions I'm working with? Not grounding it at all unless it can be grounded properly. Not doing it at all if that's a problem. I spent years building out and working in datacenters. The amount of ground potential differences on shielded cables needs to be calculated, not SWAG'd. People have been electrocuted messing with ground bounding of this type of cabling because they, like you seem to be, minimize the potential energy that could be involved. How long are these cable runs? Are they between floors? Between buildings? This sounds like something you shouldn't be doing at all in a rented house. Is this business related? Your business? Someone else's?
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Dec 10, 2022 17:29
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I'm looking into adding/moving/replacing circuits and wonder what other stuff I need to get and look into for running wires around inside walls. At this point, I've rewired circuit breakers (had some AFCI issues) inside the panel. I've also done a ton of outlets, switches, and new light receptacles. I've also run a circuit outside for an outdoor kitchen before through conduit and suffered through all that. Some things I'm looking into: 1. Garage ceiling: I just have one light on a switch and no garage door opener. That light is on a circuit that's doing a lot of stuff already. I was thinking of running a new GFCI-protected circuit for multiple can lights and a garage door opener. I believe I need GFCI since the bulbs are replaceable. Two ceiling drywall panels have fallen off since the house originally used some bad 1/2" panels so we're already looking into replacing the drywall. So I'll have much more access here than the others. I believe the main thing I have to do extra in this case is make sure the wires are stapled to studs since I believe code here requires that if I reasonably can, and I can. I won't be ripping off the drywall on the walls itself so I'd prefer to get into the existing switch from inside the wall. 2. There's a bathroom three-gang setup that is in a unintuitive spot and I'd like to just move it. I have to check code on this since it might technically move it closer to the shower head. I won't be ripping off all the drywall for this but I do have access from the top. Generally, what kit should I be thinking about for this stuff and what are some topics I should look up so I do this competently?
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Dec 10, 2022 20:51
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Motronic posted:Not grounding it at all unless it can be grounded properly. Not doing it at all if that's a problem. These are internal cables within a rack, but they're running alongside a set of ventilation fans so I'm worried about EMI from the fan motor, which is why I wanted to use shielded cables. Ground potential difference shouldn't be an issue because they're not running through the building, just within the rack itself. My understanding is that I just need an earth ground to dissipate any charge generated in the shielding from EMI, but if I'm wrong about that I'm happy to be corrected.
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Dec 10, 2022 22:27
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fatman1683 posted:These are internal cables within a rack, but they're running alongside a set of ventilation fans so I'm worried about EMI from the fan motor, which is why I wanted to use shielded cables. Ground potential difference shouldn't be an issue because they're not running through the building, just within the rack itself. My understanding is that I just need an earth ground to dissipate any charge generated in the shielding from EMI, but if I'm wrong about that I'm happy to be corrected. Is this an industrial setting or just like a random datacenter / commercial office building? I have seen 1 STP cable deployed in production in my lifetime and it was on a outdoor wifi access point.
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Dec 10, 2022 22:37
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fatman1683 posted:These are internal cables within a rack, but they're running alongside a set of ventilation fans so I'm worried about EMI from the fan motor, which is why I wanted to use shielded cables. Ground potential difference shouldn't be an issue because they're not running through the building, just within the rack itself. My understanding is that I just need an earth ground to dissipate any charge generated in the shielding from EMI, but if I'm wrong about that I'm happy to be corrected. What is supposed to happen is that everything is bonded to the rack including the powered equipment, then the rack is secondarily bonded to the facility dedicated ground. All of these grounds, from equipment chassis, (some of which are going to be bonded to the ground from whatever they are plugged into) to cable shielding are entirely bonded in multiple places to eliminate almost all possibility of potential differences. What you appear to be doing is manufacturing a problem with a solution that will create a potential hazard in a residential space.
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Dec 10, 2022 23:13
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H110Hawk posted:Is this an industrial setting or just like a random datacenter / commercial office building? I have seen 1 STP cable deployed in production in my lifetime and it was on a outdoor wifi access point. This is in my home. Motronic posted:What you appear to be doing is manufacturing a problem with a solution that will create a potential hazard in a residential space. That's entirely possible. Will the shielding still be effective if the patch panel isn't grounded? Or is there a 'correct' way to achieve a ground in this situation?
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Dec 11, 2022 02:57
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fatman1683 posted:This is in my home. If you're worried about inducted loads from exhaust fans in any residential setting, unless you live literally in a mine shaft, you need to stop. UTP is all you need. Unless you are literally wrapping them around cheap fluorescent ballasts nothing is going to go wrong. If you're within the return window for this equipment do that instead. Did you buy a stp patch panel, switch, etc all because your rack has fans in it?
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Dec 11, 2022 03:01
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H110Hawk posted:If you're worried about inducted loads from exhaust fans in any residential setting, unless you live literally in a mine shaft, you need to stop. UTP is all you need. Unless you are literally wrapping them around cheap fluorescent ballasts nothing is going to go wrong. The only thing I have right now is the rack itself. I'm still in the planning phase, which is why I'm asking these questions now. I have had bad experiences with UTP near motors, specifically an old window AC unit and a washing machine, so I figured I would look into shielded cable this time. If it's not necessary then I'm happy to save myself the cost and the trouble, I'm just going off of my previous experiences trying to get 10Gbase-T to work reliably near an EMI source.
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Dec 11, 2022 03:28
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fatman1683 posted:The only thing I have right now is the rack itself. I'm still in the planning phase, which is why I'm asking these questions now. I have had bad experiences with UTP near motors, specifically an old window AC unit and a washing machine, so I figured I would look into shielded cable this time. If it's not necessary then I'm happy to save myself the cost and the trouble, I'm just going off of my previous experiences trying to get 10Gbase-T to work reliably near an EMI source. 10GBase-T doesn't work well really anywhere. I will leave my judgmental stares around using it in a residential setting to the home networking thread. Getting 10G-T STP compatible gear end to end is going to cost you as much as just replacing the washing machine and AC unit with things that won't give off comical amounts of EMI. Or use fiber. Or 1G. Or even 2.5G.
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Dec 11, 2022 03:57
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fatman1683 posted:I'm just going off of my previous experiences trying to get 10Gbase-T to work reliably near an EMI source. That's a poo poo technology that doesn't work reliably anywhere. Nobody with the slightest bit of clue is running that garbage anymore professionally. Which probably makes for pretty attractive prices on used enterprise gear but there's a VERY good reason for that. What you want are SFP+ ports and DACs.
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Dec 11, 2022 04:11
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H110Hawk posted:10GBase-T doesn't work well really anywhere. I will leave my judgmental stares around using it in a residential setting to the home networking thread. Getting 10G-T STP compatible gear end to end is going to cost you as much as just replacing the washing machine and AC unit with things that won't give off comical amounts of EMI. Or use fiber. Or 1G. Or even 2.5G. Motronic posted:That's a poo poo technology that doesn't work reliably anywhere. Nobody with the slightest bit of clue is running that garbage anymore professionally. Which probably makes for pretty attractive prices on used enterprise gear but there's a VERY good reason for that. Both fair points. I had resisted going fiber because I was trying to avoid buying SFP+ NICs for my servers, most of which already have 10Gbase-T onboard, as well as the fact that I'd have to buy patch cables at set lengths rather than just crimping my own, but the latter is more an annoyance than an actual problem. My only issues with 10Gbase-T were due to the aforementioned appliances; it worked fine when they weren't running, and was stable for a couple of years after I rerouted the cables. But if it's on its way out then I'll see what my options are with fiber or direct-attach copper. I appreciate the input.
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Dec 11, 2022 04:51
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