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TheParadigm posted:I don't think its unreasonable based purely on the numbers, but disregardin the context. The problem is that we posted it at 3 levels and he doesn't qualify for the top level and I told him that. Second level tops out at 119K and there is zero wiggle room there. but HR is never going to go much into the upper 1/3 of the pay band, just reality. If I just posted it at his level the range would have been ~$90 - 107K in the posting. That is more an issue with how we post multi level jobs though.
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Dec 8, 2022 01:53
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Then counter with what you're willing to pay and go from there? Doesn't seem like a big deal on either side to me.
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Dec 8, 2022 02:44
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Parallelwoody posted:Then counter with what you're willing to pay and go from there? Doesn't seem like a big deal on either side to me. With that big of a gap you’re going to seriously wonder about retention
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Dec 8, 2022 03:03
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I don't know what the market is for that specific position, but I'd be worried about retention for just about any spot other than senior leaders in general anyway. I suppose if the person actually thinks they deserve that much it's one thing, but it could be a case of "see how much you can get."
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Dec 8, 2022 04:01
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Typically when this happens to me it is people coming from consulting (the situation here). I try to sell them on our benefits (double the pto where he works now for example) and 40 hours a week (they require 50 billable where he works now). Plus we do all the best jobs and send the crap out to consultants. It comes with less money though. I talked to a few of my consulting contacts on town and they were all at 110-125k. I will probably counter but i have been this far apart before and ultimately a waste of time. We will see.
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Dec 8, 2022 04:22
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Yeah maybe if you phrase it terms of total comp/rewards compared to consulting, it would look better side by side. Does your HRIS or benefits system spit out something quick and easy that will add the total up for you?
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Dec 8, 2022 05:56
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Dik Hz posted:With that big of a gap you’re going to seriously wonder about retention If you're worried about this, then doesn't it say something about your shop? State up front what you can pay at max, and then talk about how you're going to advance his career. It's all that's left.
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Dec 8, 2022 06:10
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The other way to look at this is the thread wisdom on what happens if you swing big and the offer gets pulled. Do you want him to walk away thinking he dodged a bullet because you didn't even try counter?Car Hater posted:When they ask you to be serious say ten million
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Dec 8, 2022 14:33
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skipdogg posted:That's some balls right there asking for 142K before they even have their stamp. I don't know where you live, but my good friend/neighbor is a Civil Engineer here in TX and he just hit like 150's after about 10 years of experience with his PE stamp. The funny thing is he jokes often that he's never once used his stamp. He started doing project management and that's pretty much all he does now. He did almost 10 years Civil Service with DoD and then went private and does PM for major gov contracts now. I mean maybe entry level folks in HCOL areas could ask for that, but that's crazy to me. This jives with my understanding of the engineering market, I made a similar jump to the 150s after hitting 10 yrs experience with my stamp and an MS. I'm electrical-focused so that may have helped a bit though. No way you're touching that in a direct public utility job, in any case. The numbers spwrozek laid out seem downright generous for a public job. Asking for that kind of dosh without even having a stamp is some real chutzpah - I asked for ~$130k from a consulting firm WITH my PE and got told by the recruiter that "you must be smoking crack." Of course, that was ~5 years ago, right after I got my stamp and before the labor market went all crazy. spwrozek posted:Typically when this happens to me it is people coming from consulting (the situation here). I try to sell them on our benefits (double the pto where he works now for example) and 40 hours a week (they require 50 billable where he works now). Plus we do all the best jobs and send the crap out to consultants. It comes with less money though. If he's someone who you'd genuinely like to hire I don't see much of a downside to tossing out an offer, long as the correspondence is quick. Decent chance he was just trying to anchor high so you don't lowball him - I did the same for my last couple job hops and it worked out in my favor. Coming from consulting to the owner side tends to be a little tough to sell unless the benefits are wild in any case
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Dec 8, 2022 15:13
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Ugh the whole process is dumb because on the other hand, I countered with $15k above the internal recruiter’s range that they gave me and they said they could do that so like… None of these places are on the same page with how they treat their numbers so as an applicant it feels like a goddamn free for all and you might as well throw a high number into the mix.
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Dec 8, 2022 15:31
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downout posted:If you're worried about this, then doesn't it say something about your shop? State up front what you can pay at max, and then talk about how you're going to advance his career. It's all that's left.
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Dec 8, 2022 15:38
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PE is the kind of thing that you can get in 3-6 months of (admittedly intensive) studying once you meet the experience qualification and get endorsements. It can be obtained in pretty short order, and it's not at all unusual to hire on the basis that someone will get it in a year or so. Almost always results in a salary jump upon acquisition (though 10% is very generous!). That said, there is usually a big jump between what holders and potential holders will be offered unless you very obviously will actually get the cert.
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Dec 8, 2022 16:17
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Just popping in to say I just negotiated another $10k in salary and a one-time $12.5k bonus at the end of the year, at a new company. Only a small increase over what I'm currently making, but fully remote instead of constant pressure to come in to the office, plus a bunch of other intangibles. All I did was follow the advice in this thread and what this thread pointed me to. Refused to state a number first, focused on what I could do for them with specific examples of how I've saved my current company money, rather than me just wanting more because I want more, and didn't backtrack or waffle (as in, I said "I'm looking for X," rather than "I'm looking for somewhere in the neighborhood of X, but I could go lower"). That last one felt like it took ongoing physical effort - every time I thought about what I was going to say, my inner monologue automatically added those equivocations, and I would have to tell myself no, don't preemptively give ground, just stop here and let them be the ones to push back. At the end of the conversation I'm coming away with more than what I was expecting. Everybody can do this. Thanks, negotiation thread!
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Dec 28, 2022 21:18
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Congrats! I love reading the success stories in here
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Dec 28, 2022 21:35
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Chaotic Flame posted:Congrats! I love reading the success stories in here agreed 
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Dec 29, 2022 20:06
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X-posting from my own thread. If there's a better thread I should take this to, let me know.pig slut lisa posted:A week ago, I received an email in my university account from a local real estate guy who I dealt with a number of times in my city job:
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Dec 30, 2022 05:32
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A longer reply than this will have to wait till the morning (and hopefully someone writes a better one by then than I will) but: - I read your whole post and it seems to me like you're actually doing pretty great in life - You have the permission of yet another random internet rear end in a top hat to decide for yourself what you want, and leaving two jobs that made you hate life is pretty awesome, actually - Your tax exposure goes WAY up as a 1099 consultant/contractor rather than a W2 employee, the usual baseline is at least twice the hourly rate you were making on a W2 - You definitely should have an actual contract and should hire a lawyer, explain to them what things are important to you, and have them create/approve it before signing
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Dec 30, 2022 06:12
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It is also advisable to form an LLC for a whole host of reasons.
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Dec 30, 2022 13:54
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It is also advisable to form an LLC for a whole host of reasons. Generic advice from mike monteiro's 'pay me' I'm not a contractor, I just collect useful tidbits, and goons which have done side work like this should really speak up. Tldr; get a lawyer, and don't think of them as a cost center. They make you money and enable good work. do mix of hourly, retainer, and milestone payments that double as cancelation fees. you own all your work until it is fully paid. Other party covers court and legal fees from lack of timely payment. This stops hard feelings and being screwed by either party up front cold. Ex: Hourly rate is __. no work begins until retainer recieved. Goal is __, __, __ and then ___, and payments for each are bonused at x, y, z or whatever. if they pull out of contract, they owe for all work done, and the most recent milestone payment.
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Dec 30, 2022 14:39
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Hiya OP, after reviewing what I wrote above I don't actually have much to add to it. Listen to KYOON and TheParadigm, it is extremely normal to have a contract when you do contract work. It's always tricky to struggle with feelings of inadequacy but you're actually at a really exciting point in your life.
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Dec 30, 2022 17:21
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Some more commentary here. You should have a contract but I'm not much of a fan of creating really complex payment structures. Some kind of up front retainer and an hourly rate, along with agreed on deliverables / work tasks is fine, maybe with an hours budget estimate up front. You're an individual; keep it simple. Every minute you spend on contract negotiation and terms is a minute you spend not hanging out with your kid and also not getting paid. Ideally, you don't want to get in to a "this is done/no it's not" argument with the client about payment tied to deliverables, and anyway it sounds like very open scope so defining a deliverable set will be challenging. Better to do retainer/hourly rate/max hours worked/week than to try to define project scope based on what you've posted. This kind of scope is very normal in pro services. Since you want to cap hours, I would just say max 15/week at rate X, either party can terminate with X week's notice, scope of duties limited to Y, recovery of relevant out-of-pocket expenses incl travel at federal mileage rate. I notice you are saying that other consultants charge Rate X because they have to cover overhead. No, they charge Rate X because they are worth rate X and the thing they produce costs Rate X to produce successfully and on time. If you want to discount rates because you're new, etc, etc, fine, but that's because of risk and not different cost structures. Cost structures are irrelevant in pro services. If I got rid of all my firm's overhead tomorrow, do you think we would reduce our rates? You should be charging something like what you want to put in your pocket as income x2 at minimum. That covers your legal and other business expenses as well as your tax burden. Give yourself a raise while you're at it.
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Dec 30, 2022 20:11
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I would do a $12,500 retainer up front and then $75/hr which nets you very (very!) roughly $100k/year after taxes and expenses. Then adjust your hourly rate up if you think your salary should be higher. It would be worthwhile to map out a non-binding job duties and milestones document with them, that's a good idea but agreed, don't turn a simple contract into a 700 page legal mess if you don't absolutely have to. You're not an A list actor negotiating online streaming residuals if box office return is more than $N
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Dec 30, 2022 20:26
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$12.5K retainer up front seems a little excessive for what OP described but I'm not an expert. There definitely should be some money up front and if necessary at certain milestones but it depends on the scope. If they balk at paying anything before final product is delivered then walk away IMO.
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Dec 30, 2022 20:29
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Hadlock posted:So different kind of negotiation, business negotiation So following up on this, this deal finally got signed a couple days before Christmas and the first payment processed this fiscal year 1) and 2) : Turns out the guy negotiating on the other end is a hardened bankruptcy lawyer (and I guess, director level) and was just like talking to a wall, would not let this go. Talked to our CEO, our CEO called the CEO of his company, basically told him "there's no way in hell this is happening", CEO of that company personally called the director/ex bankruptcy lawyer and told him to gently caress off and send out the interval consensus agreement and they were ready to sign within 2 days Also when doing big negotiations 1) make sure you have a single point of contact. When the negotiating parties hit a roadblock with our main negotiatior they would call up someone at the company on their personal cell and get random concessions* 2) not all your employees are loyal to your company. Pretty sure one VP is getting a side payout from one of the other parties for helping broker the deal; he was assumed to be passing along confidential information to the other parties in the middle of negotiations, eroding our position 3) I forget *At one point one party contacted our CEO and got (verbal) exclusive sales rights to any projects in all of Europe, at no cost to them. They just asked and he said yes. We got wind of this and got that poo poo recinded Finally, you need support from your CEO to just close negotiations, truly threaten to walk away. some parties will just negotiate forever to pull out every last weird concession they can and drag things out for months if not years.
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Dec 30, 2022 20:45
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Hadlock posted:Finally, you need support from your CEO to just close negotiations, truly threaten to walk away. some parties will just negotiate forever to pull out every last weird concession they can and drag things out for months if not years. Also some companies will just drag you on for ages because they can and don't care if you go bankrupt on the way with focusing on this one deal, so make sure to never depend on one potential contract for your livelihood.
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Dec 30, 2022 21:14
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Thanks all for the advice re: setting a consulting rate. Lots of good stuff in there. I think a simpler rate structure is sufficient for me at this starting point. I like the idea of a retainer up front, an hourly rate with a weekly cap, and maybe a kicker upon zoning approval for each project that reaches that milestone. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I notice you are saying that other consultants charge Rate X because they have to cover overhead. No, they charge Rate X because they are worth rate X and the thing they produce costs Rate X to produce successfully and on time. If you want to discount rates because you're new, etc, etc, fine, but that's because of risk and not different cost structures. Cost structures are irrelevant in pro services. If I got rid of all my firm's overhead tomorrow, do you think we would reduce our rates? I had this same thought an hour or two after making my post, so I'm glad to see someone say it. Charge what I charge because I'm worth it, and if I'm leaner than the competition, all the better for me. I think tomorrow we'll hash out the basic roadmap and then memorialize it in something more formal. I have an inquiry into a local attorney whom I think would be a good fit for this.
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Dec 30, 2022 21:32
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Eric the Mauve posted:$12.5K retainer up front seems a little excessive for what OP described but I'm not an expert. There definitely should be some money up front and if necessary at certain milestones but it depends on the scope. If they balk at paying anything before final product is delivered then walk away IMO. Hadlock posted:I would do a $12,500 retainer up front and then $75/hr which nets you very (very!) roughly $100k/year after taxes and expenses. Then adjust your hourly rate up if you think your salary should be higher. This is fair, actually: When you put Eric's figure together with your weekly hours and hourly rate, thats about 10 weeks of work. I think that getting into a mindset of 'business income by quarter' as a measuring stick would help your mindset a lot. My off the cuff reaction is: its real estate. 12k in 10 weeks is fuggen cabinets alone. Round up. Everyone else does.
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Dec 31, 2022 07:29
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Stupid newbie question: When you all are talking about a retainer, is that (a) a fronted lump sum payment for the first chunk of hourly work, with hourly payment to commence after the initial retainer is exhausted, or (b) a lump sum payment entirely separate from the hourly payment? To put some numbers on it, assume a $100 hourly rate and a $10,000 retainer. Would I get $10,000 up front and then receive the next $100 for the 101st hour of work, or would I get $10,000 up front and receive $100 for the first hour of work?
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Dec 31, 2022 15:39
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It's (a).
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Dec 31, 2022 16:07
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OK, phew, that's what I thought. Thanks.
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Dec 31, 2022 16:10
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I interviewed for a job with a director recently and she was really impressed with me. I would have gotten the job offer but the job apparently charged due to the implementation they were working on so they needed a Salesforce developer instead of an admin like I am. She actually called me a week after being told the job changed to offer me that position but I didn't want to do a disservice to her taking a job I know I can't do (yet). Yesterday, she emails me again with another job opporunity. This one is a side gig as a 1099 working something like 20-30 hours a month doing fairly basic Salesforce stuff. Hourly range is $31-35. I've never done a 1099 before. I was a contractor for a company for a bit but it was W2. Any thoughts on what I should do here? I asked for and got the range, and think it is fair considering the (easy) work, but I am unsure on the tax situation that maybe I should push for a bit more.
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Dec 31, 2022 19:33
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$35/hr on a 1099 is like $18-20/hr on a W2, the tax burden shouldered by the employer under a W2 that falls to you under a 1099 is big. If it's an independent contract gig then definitely read and follow the advice further up the page re:hiring a lawyer and making sure you have a contract you're happy with.
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Dec 31, 2022 19:48
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Yeah, you really have to jack up your rates on a 1099 because you get no PTO and have to pay for your own benefits (medical, disability, etc.) and have to pay the employer's share of taxes as well as your own (since you are self-employed). You also have to estimate and submit quarterly estimated tax withholdings to the IRS and your state. It's a huge mess. Also, I'm getting strong bait-and-switch vibes from the the interview for a senior position that suddenly becomes unavailable but heeeeey we just happen to have this much crappier lower-level position that we think you'd be a good fit for!
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Dec 31, 2022 20:03
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FMguru posted:Also, I'm getting strong bait-and-switch vibes from the the interview for a senior position that suddenly becomes unavailable but heeeeey we just happen to have this much crappier lower-level position that we think you'd be a good fit for! That thought struck me too (because I'm a cynical bastard) but OP was offered a bigger job than the one he applied for, before the contract gig came up. But this may very well be a company that systematically pays rock bottom salary/wages.
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Dec 31, 2022 20:24
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This would be about 20 to 30 hours per month. I would be staying at my current job (while still looking for other positions) and doing this on the side. Based on the description it is basic admin work and some support ticketing. I am not feeling like this was some weird play to cheapen the role. The basics of it was the company was going to manage a implementation for a long period of time and needed a Salesforce admin, but the needs changed and they actually needed a developer(this deals in programming). She called me about three weeks after they told me about that to offer me the developer position which I declined due to not having the experience needed, and now is offering me this contractor role. I’m just trying to figure out if it is worth my time and if there is negotiation room here if so. My current job has a lot of downtime usually so I could do an extra five or so hours a week as a side gig for sure, but I dunno. I’ve never done something like this.
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Dec 31, 2022 20:50
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The simple rule of thumb here is divide the offered hourly rate in half (to account for the higher tax burden and assorted extra nuisances that come with being an independent 1099) and ask yourself "am I happy to make this much per hour times however many hours a week?" So supposing the offer ends up being $35/hr (the top of the stated range!) are you happy to do this for $17.50 an hour? If the answer is no, then how much would you be willing to do it for? Double that and ask for it. Supposing you'd want $22/hour then you come back and say "I'm really excited to work with you, for this kind of work I would need $45 per hour, would that work for you?" If she says no, no big deal ("I understand, thanks a million for the call, I'd still love to work with you so call me anytime"), you were gonna decline anyway, and she might say yes. In which case the next step is drawing up a contract, which see the first half of this page for advice on that. You need a clear picture of what they expect delivered and when, and they need a clear picture of at which steps you expect to be paid and how much. And you both need clearly defined exit options. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Dec 31, 2022 |
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Dec 31, 2022 20:54
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Hopefully not raining on your parade (and I obviously don’t know your life situation) but be wary of burnout as well. It’s real and can outweigh the additional earnings. Just something to assess as you proceed fwiw.
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Dec 31, 2022 21:12
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Hey, we've got a feedback/rules discussion thread for the new year up here https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4020879 Appreciate any and all of your thoughts.
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Dec 31, 2022 23:25
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Update on my request for assistance in figuring out how to negotiate a consulting rate: -Hourly rate: $75 w/first 60 hrs covered by $4,500 retainer (I pitched $80/$4,800 and accepted their first counter) -$200 kicker on each project I work on that receives zoning approval (i.e. building permit or full zoning entitlement) -Max 20 hrs/week (typical week will be 15 hrs) -Biweekly pay, quarter-hour billing increment -Expenses I'm pretty pleased with this! Also, something nice that happened is one of the principals asked if I'd be up for coming into the office space they're renting downtown in order to communicate better. That's exactly what I want. I felt less productive and less happy working from home by myself, and this will add some structure to my weeks. Excited to see how this goes, thanks everyone
pig slut lisa fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Jan 1, 2023 |
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Jan 1, 2023 00:32
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Sounds great! Is there an actual contract and is a lawyer going to review it before you sign? What are the exit clauses?pig slut lisa posted:I'm pretty pleased with this! Also, something nice that happened is one of the principals asked if I'd be up for coming into the office space they're renting downtown in order to communicate better. That's exactly what I want. I felt less productive and less happy working from home by myself, and this will add some structure to my weeks. Excited to see how this goes, thanks everyone Just because it's actually exactly what you wanted doesn't mean they have to know that! You probably missed an opportunity to say "welllll I'll be happy to do that but it does mean investing extra time and incurring extra expenses so..." and getting at least mileage/parking or transit fees from them. Unless you did do that and it's covered under "expenses". But the most important thing is you made a deal you're happy with so congrats! Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Jan 1, 2023 |
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Jan 1, 2023 01:40
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