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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:As Persia I started importing Grain from China to get grain costs down so my SoL would go up and I wouldnt have to build that many farms. However, I realized that if I built up my own grain farms, I would pull more peasants out of subsistence farming, which in theory would mean they had more money to contribute to the national economy and thus to spend on goods I am producing like clothes, furniture, ect which would increase demand for these things, creating a positive feedback loop where I would employ more people by expanding the factories for those goods. Is that a mostly correct line of thinking for the game or am I off my rocker somewhere? Farms are MUCH cheaper to build than factories (150 cp vs 300cp for resource gathering or 450cp for factories). So if you're looking to quickly get people out of substinance farming it's a pretty effective way to do so. It's an expecially effective way to get people working if you're exploding with unrest over a lack of jobs midgame. You can always downgrade the farms later on if you need to free up workers for factories, or just let them run fallow if they're unprofiable and people will switch jobs automatically. Keep in mind that peasants without their needs met tend to be less cranky than other types of workers, so switching people into those other jobs without the ability to meet their needs is a good way set your country aflame.
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Dec 8, 2022 16:10
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Awesome, thank you for the information and additional info, because that was part of my concern - I want to work towards ousting the landowners but if I bring anyone but the church into the government it horribly tanks my legitimacy and the landowners have so much clout they'll make passing anything they dont want incredibly hard. Whats the best way to erode their power so I can get the industrialists and/or intelligentsia in the government to start modernizing the laws a bit (which I know can be used to further erode the power of the landowners and the church). it takes a lot of time to chip away at the power of the landowners. just mouse over their clout score on the government panel to see what is boosting it, those are the laws you need to get rid of. also be careful not to move too fast, if their approval becomes like -10ish they could become radicalized and plot a revolution - whether or not you are prepared for a civil war is your business, but you can prepare for this by stacking troops in the capital and modernizing them alone you can also race towards the mutual funds tech in the mid game as flipping all the farms from privately owned to publicly traded is a massive blow to landowner power, as they will no longer get income from farms, and best of all there's not a loving thing they can do about it
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Dec 8, 2022 16:14
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:you can also race towards the mutual funds tech in the mid game as flipping all the farms from privately owned to publicly traded is a massive blow to landowner power, as they will no longer get income from farms, and best of all there's not a loving thing they can do about it Publicly traded doesn't seem to take the landlords out, it just *adds* capitalists. Which does net mean that more of the dividends are going to the more modern rich dicks rather than the useless ones, but it doesn't render them destitute out of the gate, you need the thread title workers co-ops for that.
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Dec 8, 2022 16:16
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ah, my misunderstanding then. it is good though as you say to add more capitalists, when trying to ditch the landlords. you can ditch the capitalists later after you get them to pay to build up your economy
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Dec 8, 2022 16:18
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Logging camps are a cheap building that pretty much every country can build some of, and as long as you set them to sawmills you can make them owned by capitalists. As somewhere like Russia you can do a lot worse than a mass sawmill and tooling factory construction spree. Note that a bunch of your Northwestern provinces get a bonus to sawmill production, and everyone in the world seems to want wood and hardwood.
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Dec 8, 2022 16:24
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Thanks for all the replies re: Me as Persia wanting to oust the landowners! It sounds like I'm on the right path except that my capital is in Isfahan but my industrial center is in Tabriz (because it is so populous). I raced to researching and building railroads because Persia is mountains and market access goes to poo poo in both Isfahan (where the Iron, lead, and coal mines all are) quickly so Tabriz is pretty well industrialized with at least a level or two of everything but glassworks (which I just expanded the starting one that is somewhere else). Right now without adding anything else to government I cant change any of the bureaucracy, tax, or any of the other laws mentioned about weakening landowners, but I'm industrializing hard and pretty much only building factories and mines. I'm building a small navy so I can invade Oman for the tobacco and coffee farms there and once Russia stops being a dick I'm going to take the land south of Afganistan which I'll use that as farmland since it is not homeland of any of my accepted cultures (because I dont want China getting into a war or collapsing to ruin my entire country if I'm trading for most of my grain and dont have much local production). AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Dec 8, 2022 |
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Dec 8, 2022 16:47
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Taking central Asia is a good strat. Persian culture actually shares a trait with most of the other cultures there so if you loosen up the race laws you'll eventually stop discriminating against them even without multiculturalism so once your done beating the landowners down you can integrate them for more taxes as for Russia just improve relations. Bonus points for a trade agreement. They're huge and don't need convoys so you can overproduce on stuff and just offload it onto them. You can get them friendly enough to either let you have free reign or you can get rich off trading with them to modernize your army and just style on them if they try to get in your way Agean90 fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Dec 8, 2022 |
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Dec 8, 2022 16:52
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:once Russia stops being a dick about that
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Dec 8, 2022 16:53
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Agean90 posted:Taking central Asia is a good strat. Persian culture actually shares a trait with most of the other cultures there so if you loosen up the race laws you'll eventually stop discriminating against them even without multiculturalism so once your done beating the landowners down you can integrate them for more taxes Gort posted:about that
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Dec 8, 2022 17:06
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The strategy for getting land fast is to just puppet/vassalise whoever you're after, it's way less infamy and they can't back down and give you one province. Then 5y later just annex them, they'll still hate you after the invasion.
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Dec 8, 2022 17:09
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Moonwolf posted:The strategy for getting land fast is to just puppet/vassalise whoever you're after, it's way less infamy and they can't back down and give you one province. Then 5y later just annex them, they'll still hate you after the invasion.
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Dec 8, 2022 17:09
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I thought you couldnt annex subjects and had to release them then annex, which is effectively the same thing? You can annex subjects, you have to damage relations with them first. There's mods out there of course that let you do this peacefully, but there's no way for that right now in vanilla.
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Dec 8, 2022 17:11
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I've considered trying to take the central asian state closest to me to stop Russia from getting it, but I dont want to antagonize them (assuming they have a hardon for taking it due to history). I've been improving relations with them from game start and 20 years in we only just got to postive relations, but they'll still step in to defend Makran if I want to annex them. Now that I produce my own arms I've been expanding the economy and also expanding the army since my army is puny child compared to Russia and the Ottomans. I want to switch to professional ASAP but lol being able to change my laws right now. I think I'll trying bringing the military into the government to go professional to help take some power from the landowners... Yeah peasant levees are a pain in the rear end. The good thing is that it's biggest downside, it locking you out of certain troop types, doesn't kick in till mid game and Russias is a loving mess, so usually once you get shrapnel artillery you can just park your troops along whatever front you have with them and watch your warscore go up while another army mops up. You'll need to expand the army regardless which makes the armed forces more power and if you build a big surplus of weapons you can dump them on Russia and strip the supply out of their troops if they declare war on you
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Dec 8, 2022 17:19
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TwoQuestions posted:You can annex subjects, you have to damage relations with them first. There's mods out there of course that let you do this peacefully, but there's no way for that right now in vanilla. Nor really should there be, given that the idea is you need to do a diplomatic play killing the country (so that your rivals can stop this consolidation and the subject has the opportunity to defend their existence)
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Dec 8, 2022 17:22
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karmicknight posted:Nor really should there be, given that the idea is you need to do a diplomatic play killing the country (so that your rivals can stop this consolidation and the subject has the opportunity to defend their existence) Yeah that part makes sense, but why must the relation with a puppet trend upwards over time? I dunno if its universal or what but I'll look away for a few years and come back to +100 or something outrageous. So that's another few years of damaging relations before I can have a go at them, unless I want the infamy ding for expelling their diplomats. Wouldn't they hate me for rolling in and knocking them down to be a vassal? Why the love?
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Dec 8, 2022 17:42
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Arrath posted:Yeah that part makes sense, but why must the relation with a puppet trend upwards over time? I dunno if its universal or what but I'll look away for a few years and come back to +100 or something outrageous. So that's another few years of damaging relations before I can have a go at them, unless I want the infamy ding for expelling their diplomats. Wouldn't they hate me for rolling in and knocking them down to be a vassal? Why the love? it's just not well baked or approached via design yet. i think paradox considered puppets to be net good just for entering your market and helping you diplomatically, and not something you're even supposed to annex or whatever. but they forgot o make an AI so puppets are just a net drag
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Dec 8, 2022 17:44
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There's also mods to let you order puppets to build specific buildings if memory serves, so the EIC can actually be profitable for GB.
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Dec 8, 2022 17:48
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Arrath posted:Yeah that part makes sense, but why must the relation with a puppet trend upwards over time? I dunno if its universal or what but I'll look away for a few years and come back to +100 or something outrageous. So that's another few years of damaging relations before I can have a go at them, unless I want the infamy ding for expelling their diplomats. Wouldn't they hate me for rolling in and knocking them down to be a vassal? Why the love? They are improving relations between your countries to keep their autonomy.
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Dec 8, 2022 17:56
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karmicknight posted:They are improving relations between your countries to keep their autonomy. Those clever bastards.
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Dec 8, 2022 17:58
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Tahirovic posted:I am really not sure what exactly happened there. Like I wrote, France abandoned the play after I added war goals on them and was not part of the war. Then after a long war Siam caved in to enforce war goals on France lol. I had the same happen in a Lanfang game, start poo poo in Indonesia -> Qing jump in -> I demand the transfer of Dai Nam -> Qing nope out -> dunk some minor Malay tag -> get Dai Nam anyway. I think it's working as conceptually intended--that is, once you commit to a play you're risking something and backing down loses you it--but that that conceptualization itself is flawed in three ways: - First and foremost, the AI seems to treat plays it joins in as a third party solely in terms of how much it cares about the second party in play vs. how much it has to lose. And because subject relations are incredibly points efficient, transferring (or demanding subjugation) crank up what it has to lose by a lot--but then, because the upside is still only considered as "keeping a regional minor down" rather than also boosted with "keeping this subject", it will let absurd things go in these negotiations that it never would if they were demanded directly. - Downstream from this, due to the treatment of plays as one-at-a-time and immutable, you get the absurdity of a war between Lanfang and Tidore over primarily Dai Nam, which neither of them control but has promised to go with Lanfang if it wins. Wargoals on supporters who then back down should probably just be procced when they back down and the play reopened, though this leaves room for the player to just keep one rolling set of demands going. - It also plays into the lack of requirement for a disputed subject to actually take part in the war over itself, something we've discussed previously because it means you can't actually occupy the wargoal and bring support below 0. Zeron posted:If you have really bad starting laws, the Armed Forces are usually a surprisingly good ally. It's very easy to increase their clout and they support a lot of laws that reduce landowner strength, and they get along pretty well with the landowners. There's also little penalty for making them strong; they're one of the IGs that can be forced to roll vanguardists; the only late-game liberal law they're likely to be strongly against is Guaranteed Liberties; and they have innate attraction to fascism, so it's unlike the Industrialists who you need to have to crack the Landowners but then in turn might need to be cracked themselves.
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Dec 8, 2022 18:43
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How do you actually get rid of subsistence farmers? I was doing great progress in my Brazil game but then half a million Irish immigrated to work in the subsistence farms.
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Dec 8, 2022 20:14
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Pump it up! Do it! posted:How do you actually get rid of subsistence farmers? I was doing great progress in my Brazil game but then half a million Irish immigrated to work in the subsistence farms. You can either employ them in other industries, or you can fill every inch of arable land in every province with organised farms. They're sort of a by-product of having people with no work to do plus empty arable land.
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Dec 8, 2022 20:16
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Technically, you can simply provide enough well-paying jobs to absorb them all. But if your economy's humming enough to employ everyone at wages they want and you have fully open immigration (or a combo of open immigration for accepted pops and no discrimination, which accomplishes the same) then even being a peasant in your lands is probably going to be an improvement and they'll continue coming. At that point, the only way to proletarianize them is directly through enclosure: every state has a specified amount of agricultural land, basically a building cap that only applies to farms and plantations, and any portion of this cap not used becomes a subsistence farm. So mass-build proper farms for them to work instead.
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Dec 8, 2022 20:23
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Worth noting by the way: Subsistence farms DO provide a small trickle of various kinds of goods. If you wipe out subsistence farms by enclosures, it's a good idea to have something that can make up the slack for the goods they provide. It won't be particularly hard to do so since subsistence farms are by nature highly inefficient, but if you haven't planned for it you might end up enclosing a bunch of land and then wondering where all your liquor has gone and why your SOL just dropped suddenly.
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Dec 8, 2022 20:23
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I fired up a new run with the intention of playing regressive. It's been going ok, but honestly it's... a little dull? It's awful easy, since the Landowners love regressive laws, and they start off powerful anyway. There's not a whole lot to do once you've become an Autocratic Monarchy that reinstated Serfdom and maxed out police.
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Dec 8, 2022 20:59
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Agean90 posted:also the church isn't actually that bad an ig early game, later you'll want to cut them down as you liberalize but they don't start screeching about new taxes and help you get basic education and healthcare set up You also have to actively try to keep them alive as a political force mid late-game - there's only a handful of pops attracted to them, so they're easy to swap out and get consigned to insignificance pretty rapidly
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Dec 8, 2022 21:00
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https://twitter.com/pdxvictoria/status/1600868092166668288?s=46&t=DYO8yMDUV1i3_AyLA1zWbg New dev diary with potential changes to warfare and a potential system for deforestation/depletion of natural resources.
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Dec 8, 2022 21:46
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Zikan posted:https://twitter.com/pdxvictoria/status/1600868092166668288?s=46&t=DYO8yMDUV1i3_AyLA1zWbg DINOSAUR POPS CONFIRMED
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Dec 8, 2022 21:58
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Moonwolf posted:Publicly traded doesn't seem to take the landlords out, it just *adds* capitalists. Which does net mean that more of the dividends are going to the more modern rich dicks rather than the useless ones, but it doesn't render them destitute out of the gate, you need the thread title workers co-ops for that. It also increases the power of IGs that aren't the LOs, which also proportionally disempowers the LOs. It's often the knockout punch to finally bump the landowners into marginalized.
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Dec 8, 2022 23:04
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Alright so now that I have some additional groups in my Persian government (I could actually have everyone except Rural Folk in and be at 57 legitimacy, which I have no idea if its a good idea or not) I got rid of hereditary Bureaucrats and Slavery. I could switch from Autocracy to Landed Voting without pissing anyone off and have a 41% change of it passing out the gate, or I could go for Census Suffrage with a 29% chance and piss off the Land Owners. Should I go straight to Census Suffrage or play it safe and take it slow with Landed Voting first?
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Dec 8, 2022 23:07
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Alright so now that I have some additional groups in my Persian government (I could actually have everyone except Rural Folk in and be at 57 legitimacy, which I have no idea if its a good idea or not) I got rid of hereditary Bureaucrats and Slavery. I think it would depend on how bad it would be to piss off the Landlords, i.e., how powerful they are, how likely they would be to actually revolt over Census Suffrage (I'll admit I am not sure how to figure this out before starting enactment, or if there is even a way), and how you feel about your chances if they revolt. You could always try Census Suffrage and then cancel the enactment if it seems like it wasn't a good idea to piss off the Landlords.
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Dec 8, 2022 23:39
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Alright so now that I have some additional groups in my Persian government (I could actually have everyone except Rural Folk in and be at 57 legitimacy, which I have no idea if its a good idea or not) I got rid of hereditary Bureaucrats and Slavery. Keep in mind that the Landowners don't mind Landed Voting because it means that basically only the Landowners get to vote. This often ends up causing only regressive parties to be elected. It may be a step in the right direction but you might also suffer legitimacy issues if you want to include any halfway liberal voices in the government.
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Dec 8, 2022 23:41
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trapped mouse posted:Keep in mind that the Landowners don't mind Landed Voting because it means that basically only the Landowners get to vote. This often ends up causing only regressive parties to be elected. It may be a step in the right direction but you might also suffer legitimacy issues if you want to include any halfway liberal voices in the government. it kills the LO's clout modifier and replaces it with a smaller one that also applies to a bunch of other professions, ones which end up in a bunch of other, less-obnoxious IGs. I almost always hit Landed or Wealth as a transition step to Census/Universal
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Dec 9, 2022 00:49
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TwoQuestions posted:You can annex subjects, you have to damage relations with them first. There's mods out there of course that let you do this peacefully, but there's no way for that right now in vanilla. Are you... sure? I'm almost positive I used a high-relations "incorporate vassal" or something on eg Venezuela and Peru
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Dec 9, 2022 00:57
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Are you... sure? I'm almost positive I used a high-relations "incorporate vassal" or something on eg Venezuela and Peru Maybe you tanked relations to neutral by conquering things?
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Dec 9, 2022 01:00
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Has anyone been able to peacefully demand independence? The option is there but I'm a Russian protectorate with twice their GDP and the same power projection and they're still at like -60 to accept it. Russia even has an opinion boost from viewing me as an ally against Great Britain. I can't promote to unrecognized major power (for the recognition war goal) as a subject and Russia is the only convenient great power, it would be nice not to have to fight two wars to get recognized.
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Dec 9, 2022 01:10
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Thanks for all the replies re: Me as Persia wanting to oust the landowners! It sounds like I'm on the right path except that my capital is in Isfahan but my industrial center is in Tabriz (because it is so populous). I raced to researching and building railroads because Persia is mountains and market access goes to poo poo in both Isfahan (where the Iron, lead, and coal mines all are) quickly so Tabriz is pretty well industrialized with at least a level or two of everything but glassworks (which I just expanded the starting one that is somewhere else). you can move capitals at least! It should be on the same screen as the one that lets you integrate states iirc
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Dec 9, 2022 03:16
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spectralent posted:you can move capitals at least! It should be on the same screen as the one that lets you integrate states iirc "should be on the same screen." Everyone gave Rome poo poo but hot drat I still can't remember where anything is in the V3 interface. It's not even bad or ugly or anything. Indeed Vicky's charm is dense menus. But I find myself eyes-glazed-over clicking through it swearing "there was definitely a screen for this. Where is the goddam button?? Send help!!!"
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Dec 9, 2022 03:30
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:"should be on the same screen." My problem as a V2 player is that there aren't dense menus in V3. Instead, there's a million menus that do 2 things each. It looks nicer tho and I'll get used to it eventually
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Dec 9, 2022 03:38
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If I wanna go just hog wild with colonialism, but just played a USA game so want something smaller...ideas? Netherlands?
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Dec 9, 2022 04:13
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