|
Does anyone else think that the law criminalising "following someone" is a bit ridiculous? The other things I get, stalking, catcalling, unwanted touching, etc., but following someone is sometimes kindof unavoidable, especially if there is a busy road or only one sidewalk. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63916328 BBC posted:Sexual harassment on the street will be made a crime with jail sentences of up to two years, the government has said. I feel like that will end up selectively enforced, with a black yoof in a hoodie much more likely to be criminalised than a nice respectable-looking middle aged white guy with a past conviction for a sexual offence.
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 01:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 21:06 |
|
|
It probably will, because even if a divinely perfect justice engine was shat out of the sky with a police force to match, certain people are far more likely to feel like they're being followed by a Black guy in a hoodie than business casual white guy, and everything else compounds from there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 01:36
|
|
|
BBC posted:following someone and blocking their path will be criminalised in England under plans backed by the Home Secretary. Private Speech posted:
I'm sure the current trend for industrial action is entirely unrelated to this new law
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 01:40
|
|
|
xtothez posted:I'm sure the current trend for industrial action is entirely unrelated to this new law Scabs celebrating everywhere.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 01:49
|
|
|
xtothez posted:I'm sure the current trend for industrial action is entirely unrelated to this new law Won't it make private security kinda pointless? They don't have the same powers as police so you could just barge past them and it's unlawful for them to stop you.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 01:54
|
|
|
On the subject of dealing with boomers prattling on about how they had power cuts/ice on the windows/no heating etc when they were kids; I managed to shut my parents down doing the same thing by pointing out that us as a country being in the same state we were 60 years ago wasn’t very good. Honestly shocked it worked. Anyway, a lot of poverty fetishising boomers are about to find out exactly how miserable such a winter can be and I wish them well.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 02:28
|
|
|
"following" leaves a lot of scope for interpretation. Couple of examples - a colleague was walking home one evening after dark (winter - so it wasn't late) and a guy followed her, came right up behind her, and when she got home the back of her coat was covered in ejaculate. Another time, I got mugged one evening. I had to come home again the same way the following evening en route from tube to my home and a guy decided it would be a good laugh to follow me - and it was deliberate. He's lucky he didn't die that night as I was so hyped (had been thrashing my leg with a rolled up newspaper for the entire tube ride I was so wound up). There's also the complete disconnect some guys have with women: had a discussion maybe it was even on here a few years ago, many guys trying to do the right thing if going the same way as a woman late evening will WALK FAST up behind her (ie 'following') and overtake because they have the weird idea that makes her feel safer when in fact she is actually petrified and if possible will start crossing the street or walking faster. Some of the guys in the discussion were amazed to find that what they felt was helping was in fact terrifying. There's 'going the same way' and 'following' and late evenings they don't feel much different to a woman (or men get followed too - a male friend with long hair was carrying a shoulder bag with LPs in it and got followed one evening - said it's the first time he had even an inkling of what it felt like). Another time, I was walking along the road a few yards behind a black guy and I had the most terrible frog in my throat (something I have suffered from on and off over the years) and had to keep clearing my throat. He turned round and glared at me obviously thinking I was following him and making noises at him, but I wasn't! Just going the same way and having to clear my throat so I could breathe!
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 02:36
|
|
|
Spanish ad for J&B whisky. Grandad tries makeup so he can welcome his trans grand-daughter for Christmas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOVVgEtuybk Article about the ad and how they're trying to make it relevant to more rural areas, not just Madrid. https://tekdeeps.com/the-jb-ad-in-which-a-grandfather-learns-to-put-on-makeup-to-receive-his-trans-granddaughter-for-christmas/ Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Dec 11, 2022 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 02:39
|
|
|
Jaeluni Asjil posted:Spanish ad for J&B whisky. I know it's an ad and could be seen as cynical, and the link/message between it and the product is tenuous at best but...gently caress that is so well done and heart-warming. It got very dusty in here all of a sudden. Thank-you for sharing that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 05:45
|
|
|
Lungboy posted:https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1601706819713654784?t=IkLr28et9BWqUCEIUeaZXw&s=19 It's very funny that it's a thing he has been saying at all, because a central argument of all healthcare workers who are advocating for better conditions is "If your nurse is doing 16 hour shifts and still can't afford food and heating for their two wee bairns, they're not going to be capable of doing their best, are they?" Of course what he actually means is "They should work more hours with fewer breaks" Big lol that he's learning that the Tory press won't be friendly to you even if you're fully Tory in policy
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 07:26
|
|
|
franco posted:I know it's an ad and could be seen as cynical, and the link/message between it and the product is tenuous at best but...gently caress that is so well done and heart-warming. It got very dusty in here all of a sudden. Thank-you for sharing that. I mean, nothing truly pure under capitalism, but at the same time they could have made an ad in any number of ways, so doing a heartwarming one about just accepting your trans granddaughter while having a nice time at Christmas is still a nice thing for them to have actually chosen to do.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 07:28
|
|
|
We got knocked out of the World Cup and now there’s an inch of snow on the ground A Christmas miracle
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 10:48
|
|
|
It's beginning to look a lot like football
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 11:06
|
|
|
Ms Adequate posted:I mean, nothing truly pure under capitalism, but at the same time they could have made an ad in any number of ways, so doing a heartwarming one about just accepting your trans granddaughter while having a nice time at Christmas is still a nice thing for them to have actually chosen to do. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 11:35
|
|
|
Jaeluni Asjil posted:Spanish ad for J&B whisky. Halfway through the ad I thought the Grandad’s intention was to wear the makeup in solidarity and was thinking of god that could be taken in two very different ways by the kid
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 11:38
|
|
|
If the forecast pans out, I'm going to have to wake up very early tomorrow to find out my trains have been cancelled by a light dusting of snow. [edit] This isn't me complaining about the weather - I try not to do that. But I had train issues twice last week and the strike is going to hit my commute hard from Tuesday to Friday, so I was looking forward to having one decent day of travel.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 11:48
|
|
|
Private Speech posted:Does anyone else think that the law criminalising "following someone" is a bit ridiculous? The other things I get, stalking, catcalling, unwanted touching, etc., but following someone is sometimes kindof unavoidable, especially if there is a busy road or only one sidewalk. It will be selectively enforced and that's by design. The point isn't to take every instance of anything that might be construed as "following" and prosecute it, it's so they have something they can prosecute on if they need to, so they don't get into this "not touching, can't get mad" situation with people who *are* being creeps and falling back on "what, I was just following, following's not illegal, it's not like I was..." whatever. It's absolutely open to abuse, if they use it to profile people on race like you say, but I'd argue that the current laws on the books already give them enough cover to do that anyway. Then again, I'm white. Kinda seems like there are a load of ways to respond to a law like this, from ACAB, to whatever they can use to protect people in those situations. Laws that give police room for interpretation gives them a powerful weapon that can be used honestly, or abused, it lets them effectively police intent where intent is a thing that can never be known. It also lets them power trip. And it's not like the police have never been responsible for sex crimes. Honestly? Having been the person in front thinking "poo poo poo poo poo poo" I feel like if just having it on the books makes people question their own behaviour and put themselves in the headspace of someone walking home wondering if they're being followed even for a second, even if it's for the wrong reasons like "oh theres a law against this now huh" it's worth it?
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 11:57
|
|
|
 
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 12:09
|
|
|
Isomermaid posted:It will be selectively enforced and that's by design. The point isn't to take every instance of anything that might be construed as "following" and prosecute it, it's so they have something they can prosecute on if they need to, so they don't get into this "not touching, can't get mad" situation with people who *are* being creeps and falling back on "what, I was just following, following's not illegal, it's not like I was..." whatever. What if it's just a perception though, with the person following not being aware of it? With 2 years in prison for it that's a very heavy sentence over something that is extremely easy to do accidentally. The police can already prosecute stalking which is a separate thing, this just seems excessive. For the record I've been on both sides of it where I've felt uncomfortable that someone is following me as well as made someone uncomfortable by unintentionally walking behind them (like, 5+ meters behind, not 10 centimeters or whatever) - one of the people actually broke into run which I found just a bit sad all in all? Sometimes there isn't really a good solution for it especially if you need to get somewhere quickly and that somewhere is along the same path. I try to cross the road when possible, but it isn't always. I actually feel like overtaking isn't the worst solution, sure it might make the other person feel ever worse for a few seconds but surely that's better than walking slowly behind someone for a few minutes (especially when they start slowing down a lot because they are worried someone is following them). It also seems like the correct way to prove you're not following someone from a legal perspective if this law goes through, as clearly in that case you wouldn't be overtaking them. Would shouting something like "hey I'm just trying to get to the work/dentist/shop on time, don't worry!" be better? Somehow I don't think so. It's a very awkward situation for everyone concerned. e: Maybe the solution is not being a povvo who can't afford a car or space to store a bike and has to walk everywhere. But that's how it is (my rental contract actually prohibits me from storing bikes in the property and they do random inspections every 3 months). Private Speech fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Dec 11, 2022 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 12:09
|
|
|
You guys are so worried about the implications of this law, there's one easy solution - under-fund the police that they never bother doing anything about it. Also they're too busy arresting people for the crime of being in London and black.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 12:13
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 12:16
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/doctor_oxford/status/1601875860713340929
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 12:37
|
|
|
From MP to Tiktok star. None could say they'd fallen further, not even Lucifer.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 12:44
|
|
|
He's having quite the midlife crisis
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 12:56
|
|
|
blunt posted:He's having quite the midlife crisis It's like that Black Mirror episode where the PM fucks a pig, except it's Matt Hancock loving his own face
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:00
|
|
|
Black Mirror episode? That was just 2015.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:07
|
|
|
Isomermaid posted:Laws that give police room for interpretation gives them a powerful weapon that can be used honestly lol
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:12
|
|
|
It really is remarkable the way these peoples brains work
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:22
|
|
|
I mean, again, if she'd said "That's a beautiful dress, which culture is it based on," that might have less racist and cold have opened up a nice discussion about how the dress of afro caribbean culture has survived in the uk and become part of more diverse cultures over here. But she didn't, she asked where the head of the charity was 'from,' kept hammering away, and then used it to insist she wasn't British.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:24
|
|
|
Some people are very resistant to the idea that they could be expected to attain a basic level of understanding in order to be welcome in society. Likely not resistant to applying that idea to other people, but specifically resistant to the idea that it could be applied to them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:26
|
|
|
Even the "where are you from, no where are you from?" line of enquiry was mostly just lazy and tedious, she could have rescued it with "oh, is that north or south of the river?" and everyone would have still known the subtext but nobody is getting sacked or given a warning over it. Instead she went full tilt on comparing the transatlantic trade to her holibobs in France, and people are deliberately ignoring that bit.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:31
|
|
|
kecske posted:lol Bit dishonest to clip that out of the context tbh Just so I'm clear when I typed "powerful weapon" I was in my head thinking "like a gun" and I'm not an advocate of armed police. It's like, "I *guess* they can use it honestly, but..." Guavanaut posted:Even the "where are you from, no where are you from?" line of enquiry was mostly just lazy and tedious, she could have rescued it with "oh, is that north or south of the river?" and everyone would have still known the subtext but nobody is getting sacked or given a warning over it. From the transcript she knew exactly what she was saying ("oh I can see you're going to give me a hard time..." etc). It was pure "I am the person in this situation with the power and you WILL tell me what I want to hear". Isomermaid fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Dec 11, 2022 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:33
|
|
|
I would still characterise that as ignorance, ignorance born of an utterly sheltered existence and a presumption of being in the right for your entire life. But that only invites the question of why we have a society that permits some people to live that way, and continues to excuse their ignorance and the station that created it, after the fact.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:39
|
|
|
Isomermaid posted:From the transcript she knew exactly what she was saying ("oh I can see you're going to give me a hard time..." etc). It was pure "I am the person in this situation with the power and you WILL tell me what I want to hear". That's just the point where it became flagrant rather than salvageable.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:47
|
|
|
Yup. It's why I don't buy the "mortified to have caused offence" climbdown. Like, she was stubbornly refusing to see the conversation from the other person's point of view, because for someone living in that power imbalance, that's just not a thing she has had to do. The reaction to being challenged wasn't self-reflection, it's "this peon is challenging my authority". She could *see* she was causing offence, it only became an issue when it was presumably explained to her later.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:48
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1601736552253915136
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:49
|
|
|
It's always weird to remember Gabriel Pogrund writes for the Sunday Times because he's a legit journo and not an anti-left psycho.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:59
|
|
|
I think it is entirely possible for people to be so incapable of conceptualizing their effect on others that they can't really register causing offence, like I find it quite easy to believe that she has gone through her entire life simply not understanding that when other people do not follow the expected conversational script they aren't really "seriously" "unhappy" about it or anything they're just being coy or that it is a bizzare behaviour of the lower orders or whatever. It can go further into making up reasons why it's actually other people's fault that they're offended, which you see a lot among the right, but I think it all feeds back into the profoundly self centered worldview where malice can be formed out of highly refined ignorance, to the point that I'm not sure there is a line between them. It is possible she does feel quite mortified by it but that doesn't have to lead to an actual change in the fundamental elements of her character that produced the situation, and there are ample justifications that can be drip fed in so that that morphs over time into "well I was still in the right anyway and they were just being awkward" OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Dec 11, 2022 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 13:59
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:It is possible she does feel quite mortified by it but that doesn't have to lead to an actual change in the fundamental elements of her character that produced the situation, and there are ample justifications that can be drip fed in so that that morphs over time into "well I was still in the right anyway and they were just being awkward" It's the principal skinner meme but "no, it's the entire rest of humanity that are wrong!"
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 14:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 21:06 |
|
|
I would suggest that it is the shortest route to minimizing personal emotional or cognitive discomfort, and what stops everybody doing it is a mixture of of factors. Personal beliefs will be one, such as strong sense of the personhood of others, i.e "they must have a reason for feeling that way and their feelings are likely as valid as mine" or a conception of the self as an learning and imperfect being i.e "I am probably wrong about a lot of things and this is an opportunity to improve." But I think these are pretty hit or miss as to whether someone is going to hold tham and it's certainly going to be an unlikely position among people who are politically right wing or successful in a society that rewards treating other people as stepping stones. The other major factor I think is socialization, a lot of people cannot exist without correcting themselves because they have to interact with other people all the time and failure to do so in a suitable manner will create material consequences for them. This is also something you won't see much among the well off, for obvious reasons, but also it is compounded when people form insular social groups which reinforce their defective behaviours. This you can see pretty clearly with a lot of online right radicalization (terf pipline is very good example for how quick it melts people's brains) but I also think it is something you're going to see with a lot of wealthy people generally socializing in small groups of like minded right wing weirdos. And of course if you consume enough media that reinforces those behaviours it has the same effect as socialization with other people espousing them. Which brings us back to the question of why we have a society that produces people like that?
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 14:25
|
|