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Acebuckeye13 posted:I would also like to point out that "Russia is a dangerous place she never should have gone to" is a ridiculous post-facto justification. This isn't North Korea, travel and tourism to Russia was extremely common before the war. Countless Americans have traveled to Russia for work and tourism in recent years (Both before and after the pandemic), and the vast majority of those people were obviously not detained and sentenced to a gulag. When the State Department issued a travel advisory last year, there was an opinion article in the Boston Globe mocking it. And hey, let's also not forget that Grier's arrest happened a week before the actual invasion of Ukraine, a time when huge numbers of people (including many on these forums) were absolutely convinced that the buildup was clearly a massive bluff. Grier may have expected some form of harassment, but she had absolutely no reasonable expectation that she would be arrested and convicted on trumped-up charges as part of an international power play. Everything that happened to Griner is because of who she is. It would not have happened to some other athlete nobody really knew about. She was targeted specifically to be used as a trade chip further down the line. Even Russian legal experts have said that her sentence was above anything they could find for a comparable offense, and I believe this is after she pled guilty in order to avoid even more punishment.
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Dec 10, 2022 22:52
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Eric Cantonese posted:I've just found it really off-putting that so many people have been calling her a stupid pothead and acting like she wasn't totally and obviously rail-roaded. Same. It is odd to read, especially here, but I'm trying to listen, see things from that end and understand that argument but it's coming off as "gently caress the rich" for the most part and acting like Griner is a Kardashian or Paris Hilton. Worse, a lot of it reads as "she got what she deserved" and so...no. An awful lot of "shouldn't have gone to Russia then" and maybe so, but that doesn't excuse the draconian sentence nor do I think her fame or income should much matter into it but that's why Russia punished her in the first place. But having money isn't her FAULT, and her case it's an earned accomplishment. Living in a country that makes her higher profile and more famous than a Marine speaks more to our culture and society than anything she did, which was carrying enough residual weed vape to not even get me or anyone else high. I mean, I want Whelan to be released also but achieving one good thing doesn't make not achieving another thing bad, does it? Anyone here who was offered that much money to go work in Russia and turned it down might be able to speak to it better and have more credibility arguing what seems like "gently caress that person". And, hell, i have prescription medications (in addition to a weed card) that might get me in trouble if I were to travel somewhere and gently caress up. But this is hardly a Midnight Express scenario and there was a time where even people who were hardcore against drug smuggling and running hash (which the kid DID do) agreed that his punishment was too much and were happy at the end of the movie when he escaped. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Dec 10, 2022 |
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Dec 10, 2022 22:55
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Anyone who goes to Russia at this point and gets jailed for some bullshit charge I would truthfully be kinda like "uh yeah, what did you expect" but for Griner herself not really. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 10, 2022 23:11
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Y'all are over complicating this. The analysis goes, Biden did it, therefore it was bad.
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Dec 10, 2022 23:16
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The argument that "Russia is a dangerous place she never should have gone to" is a ridiculous post-facto justification. This isn't North Korea, travel and tourism to Russia was extremely common before the war. Countless Americans have traveled to Russia for work and tourism in recent years (Both before and after the pandemic), and the vast majority of those people were obviously not detained and sentenced to a gulag. When the State Department issued a travel advisory last year, there was an opinion article in the Boston Globe mocking it. And hey, let's also not forget that Grier's arrest happened a week before the actual invasion of Ukraine, a time when huge numbers of people (including many on these forums) were absolutely convinced that the buildup was clearly a massive bluff. Grier may have expected some form of harassment, but she had absolutely no reasonable expectation that she would be arrested and convicted on trumped-up charges as part of an international power play.
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Dec 10, 2022 23:21
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I need to get around to learning how much Sharon Tate made for filming Valley of the Dolls so I know whether or not to feel bad about what happened to her.
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Dec 10, 2022 23:21
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Main Paineframe posted:This is exactly how the capital class wants things to be. By dividing the workers and causing them to resent each other, they destroy the most valuable weapon the working class has: solidarity. The closely related ideas of "gently caress you, got mine" and "gently caress you, the capitalists treat you better than me" are a knife in the back of the workers' movement. I was thinking about this earlier. The whole “eat the rich” dysphemism has unfortunately led people into seeing class as a matter of what they earn rather than what they own. There’s actually very little difference between the types of problems that the owner of a meager small town business and a owner of a wealthy corporation have, it’s just the severity of their problems. Whereas the small town business owner and someone working for a company who earns the same amount of money are basically from different worlds with what their problems are. That’s why they’re called the petite bourgeoisie, and find solidarity with corporate owners who make trillions and eat babies on some island than with the workers in their community. And yet, it doesn’t work that way with the workers finding solidarity with one another. Automata 10 Pack fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Dec 11, 2022 |
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Dec 11, 2022 00:21
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Nameless Pete posted:I need to get around to learning how much Sharon Tate made for filming Valley of the Dolls so I know whether or not to feel bad about what happened to her. Yeah this is where I'm at. Like are we seriously trying to do calculus on whether or not a certain class of people "deserve" to go to a penal colony for 9 years? Like she didn't make the choice to trade an arms dealer for herself, but she also doesn't deserve to do hard labor until her youth is behind her and her health is shot and maybe she doesn't even survive because she had a thimble full of thc on her. To be clear I also feel the same way about people in US prisons.
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Dec 11, 2022 00:42
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Athlete salaries are directly correlated with the revenue the sport brings in; anybody focusing on "They earn a lot of money" is ignoring that pro sports are more socialistic than pretty much any workplace that isn't an employee co-op. EDIT: I just checked and while the NBA gives about 50% of all basketball-related revenue to the players, the WNBA only gives 20%. If anything Griner's salary should be even higher. Haschel Cedricson fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Dec 11, 2022 |
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Dec 11, 2022 00:47
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Haschel Cedricson posted:Athlete salaries are directly correlated with the revenue the sport brings in; anybody focusing on "They earn a lot of money" is ignoring that pro sports are more socialistic than pretty much any workplace that isn't an employee co-op.
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Dec 11, 2022 00:50
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The world cup was literally held in Russia after the annexation of Crimea.
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Dec 11, 2022 00:57
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7c Nickel posted:Y'all are over complicating this. The analysis goes, Biden did it, therefore it was bad. Yeah it's this. The Griner chat started up not because of anything to do with her, the US, Russia, Vova, communism, basketball players, etc- it started because Joseph Robinette Biden Junior did a photo op. Kinda missing the main point that the United States, in a rare moment, did the bare minimum for one of its citizens. The US should, indeed, do better, but the issue isn't that it only happened because it was a famous* sports lady. The issue is some intern made a tweet featuring Joe Biden's face. *bullshit considering how the WNBA has been the butt of jokes for my entire life, just like every other womens' sports league. Every sweaty dad in the nation has a fantasy squad of their fave male benchwarmers of the 1988 Milwaukee Bucks season. Nobody can even name top female players. Hell, we're sitting on a womens' soccer team that's one star away from matching the top mens' world cup team of all time. Griner became a household name because of her situation, and it's ludicrous to pretend she got special treatment for her status as a beloved athlete. There would be F-35s over Piter and Moscow if the same thing happened to LeBron.
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Dec 11, 2022 01:16
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FishBulbia posted:The world cup was literally held in Russia after the annexation of Crimea. I think you will find Americans generally don’t think much of the World Cup. I mean it’s more than they used to. And FIFA is about the worst and most corrupt sports organization on the planet.
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Dec 11, 2022 01:17
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FishBulbia posted:The world cup was literally held in Russia after the annexation of Crimea. Brittney Griner didn't even start her rookie WNBA season until after Russia annexed Crimea. She's been playing in Russia during the off season for like 7 years straight.
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Dec 11, 2022 02:19
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Ravenfood posted:What level of income makes it "greedy" Any amount that is more than 221k
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Dec 11, 2022 02:40
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Haschel Cedricson posted:Athlete salaries are directly correlated with the revenue the sport brings in; anybody focusing on "They earn a lot of money" is ignoring that pro sports are more socialistic than pretty much any workplace that isn't an employee co-op. If the WNBA were an independent entity, it wouldn't make money. The WNBA only stays afloat because the NBA donates some of its revenue to the WNBA. Given this fact and the really low popularity of women's basketball as a spectator sport in the US, WNBA players should be thanking their lucky stars that they get paid any money at all to do their job. Edgar Allen Ho posted:*bullshit considering how the WNBA has been the butt of jokes for my entire life, just like every other womens' sports league. Every sweaty dad in the nation has a fantasy squad of their fave male benchwarmers of the 1988 Milwaukee Bucks season. Nobody can even name top female players. Hell, we're sitting on a womens' soccer team that's one star away from matching the top mens' world cup team of all time. Griner became a household name because of her situation, and it's ludicrous to pretend she got special treatment for her status as a beloved athlete. There would be F-35s over Piter and Moscow if the same thing happened to LeBron. Women are way worse at most sports, so women's spectator sports are usually regarded to be a worse entertainment product. In the case of basketball, there is no rule prohibiting a woman from playing in the NBA. If a woman WAS good enough to play in the modern NBA, it would be an incredible boon for the NBA and they'd be all for it. Professional sports are entertainment, and novelty (e.g. like having a woman good enough to play in the NBA in the modern era) is HUGE in entertainment. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) silence_kit fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Dec 11, 2022 |
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Dec 11, 2022 02:41
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Okay, so the key point is "greed". I am not sure how you can identify that someone you don't know and have never met is acting solely out of greed, and therefore make the not-at-ALL-subjective decision that she deserves to be punished, but I'll set that aside. Do you have a salary line at which someone goes from "not greedy" to "greedy"? Is it a general line, or one which shifts based on professions? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 11, 2022 02:42
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I would think the ones trying to be outraged here are the people coming in to tell us all why this lady being rescued from a bullshit sentence is a bad thing
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Dec 11, 2022 02:52
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She asked for nine years in a Russian penal colony. Got it. gently caress off. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 11, 2022 02:54
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There is no way in hell she knew the "risks" either and I doubt she has international savvy "handlers" to advise her every move.
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Dec 11, 2022 03:02
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Jesus III posted:No, I don't think she deserves it. But, she knew the risks and went with drugs to Russia. She's an idiot. Idiots deserve what they ask for. You can keep whining like you actually care, but you don't. You just want to be outraged. She did the same thing she's been doing for the better part of a decade. All the other times she played basketball, made some money, and then went home. There was no real indication that this time was going to be different. Unless you're arguing that her psychic friend informed her that Russia was looking for a good PR patsy to play some international showmanship with the US.
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Dec 11, 2022 03:15
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Jesus III posted:No, I don't think she deserves it. But, she knew the risks and went with drugs to Russia. She's an idiot. Idiots deserve what they ask for. You can keep whining like you actually care, but you don't. You just want to be outraged. This is why I was asking about whether people actually believe she had drugs because it seems to keep coming up every time someone says Grinner deserved to stay in a Russian prison.
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Dec 11, 2022 04:07
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FlamingLiberal posted:I need to find out who it is, but I was informed on a sports podcast the other day when the Griner news broke that there is still an American woman in Russia playing on a women's basketball team there and she has been left alone. Is her case really that different from fogels https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/12/10/marc-fogel-russia-brittney-griner-00073363
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Dec 11, 2022 04:11
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mastershakeman posted:Is her case really that different from fogels Yes; the US had tried to negotiate the release of another person, though I don't recall if it was Fogel. Fogel was targeted as a bargaining chip for similar reasons, but the Russian government would see someone more prominent as a better "get," and, of course, using Griner inspires the exact sort of worthless "discourse" that's shat up this thread for the past day.
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Dec 11, 2022 04:45
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silence_kit posted:
Here are the citations that were asked for this claim https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3761733/ and https://journals.humankinetics.com/view/journals/ijspp/13/1/article-p2.xml Whether that leads to less viewership is probably just conjecture. And the reason for the gender gap also isn't super clear.
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Dec 11, 2022 05:07
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Automata 10 Pack posted:I was thinking about this earlier. The whole “eat the rich” dysphemism has unfortunately led people into seeing class as a matter of what they earn rather than what they own. Citation needed. You're making a lot of broad statements with no justification at all. Maslow's hierarchy of needs doesn't change just because someone owns property or owns a business. Human beings still need food, shelter, health care, etc. whether they work for themselves or work for someone else, and getting those needs met is easier with more money. If a small town, barely-breaks-even business owner is petite bourgeoisie, then a $200,000-a-year salaried professional is petite bourgeoisie, because that professional can invest their money in real estate, or in buying stocks, or in starting their own business. There are workers out there who don't have solidarity because of their political beliefs. You see it more often among the working class in red states. They're people who regularly vote against their own interests. There are also workers out there who don't have solidarity because they don't need it. They're the high-skilled, in-demand professionals, making $200,000 a year or more, and they don't need a union because if they don't like their current job they can just leave and get hired somewhere else right away. You see a lot of them in the tech industry. I've read hundreds of posts from high-paid tech industry professionals, talking about their employment situation, on Slashdot. There are some business and property owners out there who do give a poo poo about the working class, either out of genuine compassion or enlightened self-interest. How many, I don't know, but they exist. My former landlord was this type of person. He was a genuinely good and kind man who had a lot of power over whether or not I'd have to move out. This post is not directly about Griner's situation, and the only things I have to say about that are that I'm glad she's home safe, and I hope that everyone pays attention to what happened to her and stays the gently caress away from Russia.
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Dec 11, 2022 05:23
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Power is a key word here. A lot of the dumbest poo poo about the discourse of the last decade- and then some- is because Westerners deliberately have been miseducated to be unable to properly identify power dynamics and every way they affect human interaction. Despite that being, y'know, pretty instinctive for social creatures to try to determine in any situation. Hence you get the clusterfuck of identity politics and attempts at being progressive that fail completely because they're trying to measure 'privilege' while completely ignoring wealth and class. (and probably not a coincidence that said ideas are being pushed by people who are a lot wealthier than the people they try to scapegoat as 'privileged') This kinda ties in with the whole aspirational thing- 'temporarily embarrassed millionaires' as it's now often used and such, the working class, and what's left of the middle class, are encouraged to not only believe in but expect they will achieve upward mobility and positions of privilege, to the point of defending privilege they don't even have. And this also gets used both ways as a wedge against progressives- that the racist sexist Berniebros want to take away the wealth just as women are getting their turn to run the empire, huh? Of course it goes the other way and I imagine Grinner's also getting a lot of ridiculous flak for being a black woman going to Russia. And not just from the right. I'm really getting vibes of 'How dare you entertain the enemy, you traitor'.
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Dec 11, 2022 07:09
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Jesus III posted:No, I don't think she deserves it. But, she knew the risks and went with drugs to Russia. She's an idiot. I am kind of sympathetic to your argument--she DID kind of go into the lion's den in the search for even MORE money as an entertainer. The sympathetic Marxist jargon treatment usually reserved for normal workers seems a little silly to use in her case. Also in the previous topic ITT, didn't we all conclude that national sovereignty is sacrosanct? I think for me what makes me sympathetic to her case was that she was targeted, wasn't tried fairly even under the unjust Russian law, and received a sentence way out of whack for the crime, again, even under the unjust Russian law, so that she could have been used in a prisoner trade with the US.
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Dec 11, 2022 11:46
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Christ, talk about immediately proven right.
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Dec 11, 2022 12:10
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My eyes have a tendency to glaze over your posts. Please forgive me if I missed something.Ghost Leviathan posted:Of course it goes the other way and I imagine Grinner's also getting a lot of ridiculous flak for being a black woman going to Russia. And not just from the right. I'm really getting vibes of 'How dare you entertain the enemy, you traitor'. That's not what I'm saying at all, but if it makes you feel better to pretend that I am saying this, please, go right ahead. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 11, 2022 12:25
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https://www.avclub.com/jimmy-fallon..._content=avclub So a handful of celebrities are being sued by people stupid enough to have bought those stupid Bored Ape NFTs over not disclosing the fact that they were being paid to promote those stupid Bored Ape NFTs
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Dec 11, 2022 14:27
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Jesus III posted:No, I don't think she deserves it. But, she knew the risks and went with drugs to Russia. She's an idiot. Idiots deserve what they ask for. You can keep whining like you actually care, but you don't. You just want to be outraged. Well I'm definitely outraged but that's got more to do with that the way a bunch of classless losers are responding to griner's release validated my cynicism Way before anyone knew how she could be released, right wing media was doing double time to blame her for her own situation in ways that would not exist at all for a non black, non queer woman. She was just not deserving of sympathy to way too many people. The narrative started early. The US could have traded her for a ham sandwich and people would have still been outraged
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Dec 11, 2022 14:37
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Staluigi posted:Well I'm definitely outraged but that's got more to do with that the way a bunch of classless losers are responding to griner's release validated my cynicism Yeah, and as for the whole "why did Biden ignore Whelan" complaint, the NY Times recently had a story on that this week, they really did try to get him too but its just not happening. Russia believes Whelan (or at least they are sticking with the story) was an actual spy, and they only want to trade him for a similar Russian agent. Russia wanted Vadim Krasikov for Whelan. (He's the guy who brazenly murdered someone in Germany in broad daylight). https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/09/us/politics/brittney-griner-prisoner-swap.html Well, OK first of all that is stupid we are talking about a murderer for someone who is not even a US agent at all, but whatever, he's in a German prison and not even ours to trade. But, we did actually approach Germany to ask them if they would consider it (we probably had to show Russia that we at least tried), and as expected we got a flat no from them. Later on, we reportedly tried to work out some kind of a 3-way deal where we asked Germany if there was anything they might want from either Russia or the US, and that did not go anywhere. Right after the midterms, Russia contacted us to basically say "you can't free Krasikov, well ok fine, do you just want Griner then for the arms trafficker". Then we responded one more time to basically say "yes, but are you sure there is absolutely nothing else you would want to release Whelan", and they said no. So, we got what we could. At this point we either need to capture a Russian spy, or wait for Putin to be replaced. Rigel fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Dec 11, 2022 |
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Dec 11, 2022 14:51
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quote:Russia wanted Vadim Krasikov for Whelan. So Whelan is hosed then huh. Like the trade for Griner doesn't cause many issues beyond how russia can play it for narrative, because the arms dealer they got back is more or less useless and wasn't going to serve too much longer anyway because the judge thought he'd been unfairly entrapped or whatever. Vadim, otoh
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Dec 11, 2022 14:58
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Also she was literally convicted based on trace amounts of oil in empty, used vape cartridges. She'd probably get a worse sentence in some American states.
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Dec 11, 2022 15:31
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Also she was literally convicted based on trace amounts of oil in empty, used vape cartridges. Probably not.
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Dec 11, 2022 19:36
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Probably not. Absolutely not
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Dec 11, 2022 20:20
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Rigel posted:Well, OK first of all that is stupid we are talking about a murderer for someone who is not even a US agent at all, but whatever, he's in a German prison and not even ours to trade. Having not followed the Paul Whelan stuff much, is there a reason to affirmatively believe Paul Whelan isn't a spy? I'm good with the burden of proof being on Russia or whatever, just wondering if there's something more than that.
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Dec 11, 2022 21:56
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This is potentially a massive breakthrough if the results are confirmed. I assume they already have or they would not be having a press conference about it. https://twitter.com/thomas_m_wilson/status/1602011888652632064?s=20&t=2FYhpv5PzYQPypYm3m0dLQ
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Dec 11, 2022 22:11
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FlamingLiberal posted:This is potentially a massive breakthrough if the results are confirmed. I assume they already have or they would not be having a press conference about it. That's so cool! Hopefully the news conference is confirming it. = )
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Dec 11, 2022 22:13
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