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mcmagic posted:If the plan was really to kill Tayna all along why go through that whole elaborate party, taking her to the opera and getting the mafia guy to have sex with her? Wouldn't they have just killed her the second they got her away from the hotel? Possibly stalling to get to a place where they can get Portia on her planned flight out of the country rather than have her running around for 3 days going "Where's Tanya?!?"
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Dec 12, 2022 15:48
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I'm in the minority here, but after now having seen the whole picture I find myself really liking the couples story. The breakfast and airport scenes really cement that Cameron and Daphne are just two psychopaths who get off on infidelity and cruelty. Daphne and Ethan definitely had sex, and I am willing to bet that afterwards Cameron and Daphne had amazing sex. They each seek to create opportunities for the other person to be terrible so that they can "punish" them by being a terrible person themselves afterwards. And they use that to fuel their lust for each other. I'd be willing to bet that this is far from the first time they have done something like this. They are some of the worst people in the world, and they are perfect for one another. As for Ethan and Harper, they were just two people in an already somewhat malfunctioning relationship sucked into the middle of a sex/power game being played between two psychopaths. Only when the two of them see Cameron and Daphne acting completely normal at breakfast do they realize just how insane they are.
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Dec 12, 2022 15:51
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Poopbutt posted:I'm in the minority here, but after now having seen the whole picture I find myself really liking the couples story. Without a doubt. And a little bit of a shock, because by midseason it seems pretty clear they're running a financial scam on them (and the fact that Cameron can't seem to pay the sex workers up until this episode seems to affirm that), but really the only scam they're running is a sexual one. And to comment on a post up above - I definitely didn't take the ending to make it seem like Ethan and Harper are gonna be okay. They got a little spark sexually, but there's no guarantee it will last (in fact I would bet against it), and both have been hurt and betrayed by the other. The way Cameron and Daphne operate is not the way most people can, and far more likely, bitterness and hatred will set in.
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Dec 12, 2022 16:06
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Jim the Nickel posted:?? Mia was 100% playing Valentina, because at the end of the show she's the new in-house piano player. Not that she didn't have fun with her in the process, but the only reason she started flirting was because she wanted to be a musician. Right, so maybe her and Lucia are lesbians and she didn't tell Valentina because they're playing her
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Dec 12, 2022 16:15
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Mike N Eich posted:And to comment on a post up above - I definitely didn't take the ending to make it seem like Ethan and Harper are gonna be okay. They got a little spark sexually, but there's no guarantee it will last (in fact I would bet against it), and both have been hurt and betrayed by the other. The way Cameron and Daphne operate is not the way most people can, and far more likely, bitterness and hatred will set in. I think they might make it at least in the short/medium term. I took part of the reason they were so affectionate at the airport after the breakfast as realizing that although they might have their relationship problems and personal flaws they are genuinely grateful that at least they aren't married to Cameron or Daphne. After seeing those nightmare people all your partners flaws don't seem so bad after all.
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Dec 12, 2022 16:21
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I took it as Daphne's words about mystery being sexy as a possible explanation for Ethan's renewed interest in Harper. Like he has adopted Daphne's approach, not that he's realised they are crazy. Although I sort of missed that they probably had sex on the island. I was expecting it to cut back to that and forgot that it never did. I think this finale leaves things ambiguous enough with those four that there is a lot of room to project your own reality on to it.
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Dec 12, 2022 16:37
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absolutely loved Tan' Wick
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Dec 12, 2022 16:39
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mcmagic posted:If the plan was really to kill Tayna all along why go through that whole elaborate party, taking her to the opera and getting the mafia guy to have sex with her? Wouldn't they have just killed her the second they got her away from the hotel?
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Dec 12, 2022 16:43
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I feel like having her overdose on drugs during the party was probably the easier move. These gay guys need to work on their murdering skills.
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Dec 12, 2022 16:59
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it seemed like they genuinely wanted her to enjoy her final days before they offed her, for some reason.
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Dec 12, 2022 17:00
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She was doing so many lines I thought her heart was gonna give out.
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Dec 12, 2022 17:01
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Moltke posted:it seemed like they genuinely wanted her to enjoy her final days before they offed her, for some reason. This is the vibe I got. They say a couple of times something along the line of "We really wanted you to have a wonderful time in Sicily, it's the least we could do." The whole series shows the various scammers forming actual connections with their marks, actually: Lucia with Albie, Mia with Valentina, Jack with Portia* and Quentin with Tanya. Not enough to not scam them, obviously, but it was nice to show the lines blurred a little. Jack's not scamming Portia, obvs, but he got close enough to her to be sincere.
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Dec 12, 2022 17:06
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precision posted:Right, so maybe her and Lucia are lesbians and she didn't tell Valentina because they're playing her You’re thinking too hard about this
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Dec 12, 2022 17:10
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Mike N Eich posted:
Yeah it's important to remember this show is grounded in reality, and all that happened was a week long vacation with nothing definitive on how things "work out" Btw, I assume everyone agrees Cameron/Harper and Ethan/Daphne banged
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Dec 12, 2022 17:18
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Escobarbarian posted:Man a lot of the Tanya stuff was kind of mean though, right? Like first making her SO oblivious that she doesn’t realise until the call (that scene with her and Hollander talking about the photo where she swallows all his bs is pure Flanderisation), then “Is Greg having an affair????”, and then that cruel death. It felt far far more contemptuous than anything else in the show thus far. I agree, I think actually falling off the boat and drowning would have been a perfect coda for her Season 1 arc, but after this season it felt a little too arbitrarily cruel, especially since this season is much lighter on the class consciousness angle. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Dec 12, 2022 |
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Dec 12, 2022 17:21
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Conrad_Birdie posted:You’re thinking too hard about this Probably! And I think that's intentional. There are tons of little things we don't know the answer to - hell, we don't REALLY know that was Greg in the picture. If not for Jack's final words, the whole thing could have been a misunderstanding. Like the entire thesis of the season seems to be "enjoy things and don't try to obsessively figure everything out" it's like the anti-LOST
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Dec 12, 2022 17:23
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Ultimately, I think this season is too invested in ambiguity and, in Daphne’s words, the mystery that will always remain in other people to have a hard answer to who hosed who but my take was: Harper and Cam kissed, probably for more than 2 seconds, but got interrupted before anything happened. They definitely went up to the room to gently caress, may or may not have actually let it happen if Ethan didn’t show up, and lied about it. Daphne and Ethan 100% hosed and it was nasty
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Dec 12, 2022 17:28
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As an aside I really liked the conclusion to Jack's role, it was just enough information to give the character depth. He's a guy in a really bad situation that isn't over-explained but gives us enough information to flesh him out, and his giving Portia a way out is a pretty nice ending note.
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Dec 12, 2022 17:28
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mcmagic posted:If the plan was really to kill Tayna all along why go through that whole elaborate party, taking her to the opera and getting the mafia guy to have sex with her? Wouldn't they have just killed her the second they got her away from the hotel? Moltke posted:it seemed like they genuinely wanted her to enjoy her final days before they offed her, for some reason. This, and also it really makes them less suspicious than if she had died so soon after going off with them
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Dec 12, 2022 17:37
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They probably would have gotten away with it if they had disconnected Portia and Tanya by getting rid of Tanya's phone instead of Portia's. Tanya's on a drug binge and in general ditzy and careless, so she wouldn't have been suspicious, whereas Portia is constantly connected to hers. Not nitpicking the logic here though. I think you're supposed to see the conspiracy members as sloppy and inexperienced. It's very Fargo. Their ideal scenario seemed to be that Portia and Tanya get disconnected, but Portia thinks Tanya's doing fine and on her way to the airport right up to the moment that she boards the plane without her. Then she finds out Tanya's dead when she's already back in America.
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Dec 12, 2022 17:39
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blue squares posted:This, and also it really makes them less suspicious than if she had died so soon after going off with them I'm pretty sure the plan was to have her publicly alive with them with tons of witnesses and then she shows up dead somewhere else (which is why they had a rope and duct tape, to bring her elsewhere instead of just dumping her off the boat)
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Dec 12, 2022 17:39
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Moltke posted:it seemed like they genuinely wanted her to enjoy her final days before they offed her, for some reason. Yes, its part of how I'm pretty sure Quentin and his group have never carried out a murder before. He has a sincere regret that he has to kill her and is trying to give her a nice 'send-off'. Plus the whole thing about separating Portia from her. Also Quentin has a flair for the theatrical so that's an added bonus. Here's another big hole in Quentin's plan - whats their recourse if Jack doesn't hit it off with Portia? It's far from certain that he's going to be able to seduce her and keep her away from Tanya for several days. They really got lucky with that, though I suppose the alternative is "kill them both", but I'm not confident that's something they're capable of.
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Dec 12, 2022 17:39
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Mike N Eich posted:They really got lucky with that, though I suppose the alternative is "kill them both", but I'm not confident that's something they're capable of. Jack certainly couldn't have. And Portia dying would ruin the whole thing because there's no way they could pass off a woman AND her assistant dying accidentally on the same trip.
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Dec 12, 2022 17:42
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I don't think Harper actually "did anything", at least as far as the stuff Ethan was worried about. What did happen was just as bad, but both of them are stuck on the "sex = crossing the line" definition of cheating. She was intentionally flirting, and agreed to go up to the room with him, probably not sure what she was going to do but 100% sure what Cameron was going to do.Jim the Nickel posted:This is the vibe I got. They say a couple of times something along the line of "We really wanted you to have a wonderful time in Sicily, it's the least we could do." Yeah lots of empathy/sympathy, even though Cameron was the most evil (out of the characters who weren't would-be murderers) but he did consider Ethan his friend, and wanted him to have a good time... as long as he got to keep his alpha dog status. On the boat, Quentin slyly brought up the topic of raising money to maintain these rich houses. So I thought maybe the plan wasn't to kill her, but scam her into giving up a large chunk of her fortune for "historical preservation" or whatever. It might have been an attempt to get the money without murder, but she was too distracted and suspicious at that time. I think Greg wanted her dead, but coming back to that empathy point, he was grateful to her for saving his life.
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Dec 12, 2022 18:00
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Poopbutt posted:They are some of the worst people in the world, and they are perfect for one another. Isn’t Daphne the only main character we didn’t witness doing anything hosed up?
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Dec 12, 2022 18:11
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LifeLynx posted:I don't think Harper actually "did anything", at least as far as the stuff Ethan was worried about. What did happen was just as bad, but both of them are stuck on the "sex = crossing the line" definition of cheating. She was intentionally flirting, and agreed to go up to the room with him, probably not sure what she was going to do but 100% sure what Cameron was going to do. Ethan seems to think he can say their relationship is fine as long as they are completely honest with each other, but Harper is right that he has been lying about why they aren't having sex (he's not attracted to her anymore, clearly does not want children with her). LifeLynx posted:On the boat, Quentin slyly brought up the topic of raising money to maintain these rich houses. So I thought maybe the plan wasn't to kill her, but scam her into giving up a large chunk of her fortune for "historical preservation" or whatever. Yeah, I was definitely like "Oh gently caress, has this all been a huge misdirect?" when they looked like they were about to drop a fundraising pitch on her.
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Dec 12, 2022 18:12
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LifeLynx posted:I don't think Harper actually "did anything", at least as far as the stuff Ethan was worried about. What did happen was just as bad, but both of them are stuck on the "sex = crossing the line" definition of cheating. She was intentionally flirting, and agreed to go up to the room with him, probably not sure what she was going to do but 100% sure what Cameron was going to do. Yeah and this is part of the point, too - showing how both Harper and Ethan did nothing technically wrong, and how that sort of technicality doesn't ultimately matter
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Dec 12, 2022 18:17
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LifeLynx posted:
Cameron set up the trip to get his hands on Ethan's money for his shady hedge fund. I think when he saw what a wet blanket Harper was they decided to try to break them up and he and Daphne orchestrated the night apart and the condom wrapper. My guess is the plan Daphne came up with was to just get Ethan blackout drunk and plant the evidence but didn't expect/want to think about Cameron actually hiring hookers. The plan didn't work though because Harper didn't bail immediately and it ended up with Ethan pissed at Cameron (which Cameron could never have anticipated because he's always been a bully to Ethan and Ethan always took it). quote:On the boat, Quentin slyly brought up the topic of raising money to maintain these rich houses. So I thought maybe the plan wasn't to kill her, but scam her into giving up a large chunk of her fortune for "historical preservation" or whatever. It might have been an attempt to get the money without murder, but she was too distracted and suspicious at that time. I think Greg wanted her dead, but coming back to that empathy point, he was grateful to her for saving his life. There's no chance that they were going to change the plans given a hitman was on his way to the boat but I think they were trying to lamely justify it to themselves that Tanya would be OK with what was going on since some of the money would go to restoration of the villa. No real evidence but I'd guess the hitman's kit was intended for Portia. They'd want to find out what she knew or who else she might have talked to before they killed her. The hitman was obviously not concerned with his ability to easily dispatch Tanya and a boating accident is probably the least suspicious way to go. I suppose it's possible that there was a more elaborate plan like Tanya was going to be ransomed (hence the rope and duct tape) and the Italian contingent were going to get their cut from Greg via a ransom payment before they killed her but that just seems unnecessarily complicated.
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Dec 12, 2022 18:50
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All of that is WAY more elaborate than I think was depicted/intended
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Dec 12, 2022 19:02
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BetterLekNextTime posted:Cameron set up the trip to get his hands on Ethan's money for his shady hedge fund. I think when he saw what a wet blanket Harper was they decided to try to break them up and he and Daphne orchestrated the night apart and the condom wrapper. My guess is the plan Daphne came up with was to just get Ethan blackout drunk and plant the evidence but didn't expect/want to think about Cameron actually hiring hookers. The plan didn't work though because Harper didn't bail immediately and it ended up with Ethan pissed at Cameron (which Cameron could never have anticipated because he's always been a bully to Ethan and Ethan always took it). That is an interesting read on it. Since Daphne and Cameron seemed to be playing games with each other the whole time, them being in cahoots didn't really cross my mind. BetterLekNextTime posted:There's no chance that they were going to change the plans given a hitman was on his way to the boat but I think they were trying to lamely justify it to themselves that Tanya would be OK with what was going on since some of the money would go to restoration of the villa. Portia was going to spend the day with Jack far away from the hitman per the original plan. The only reason she was supposed to get close to Tanya and them was she demanded Jack drive her there (and then he didn't comply and drove her to the airport instead). Ransom doesn't make sense. A lot of evidence points to Greg being part of the plot.
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Dec 12, 2022 19:20
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mawarannahr posted:Isn’t Daphne the only main character we didn’t witness doing anything hosed up? Her cheating her husband out of the gene pool was pretty ice cold IMO, but that's offscreen and Cameron definitely deserves it. Hell, she may have a third kid that's Ethans. Maybe it'll have darker hair and put Cameron more at ease. He didn't seem very at ease when he was picking his teeth while he could hear his kids wanted to see him. He seemed... frustrated? Honestly the way it was framed he seemed like a wolf who was considering eating his young for a moment.
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Dec 12, 2022 19:27
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I'm genuinely surprised Cameron ended up paying Lucia in the end. sure okay posted:He didn't seem very at ease when he was picking his teeth while he could hear his kids wanted to see him. He seemed... frustrated? Honestly the way it was framed he seemed like a wolf who was considering eating his young for a moment. https://twitter.com/SpencerAlthouse/status/1602140969608044544?cxt=HHwWgICz2aWu-bssAAAA
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Dec 12, 2022 20:08
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PostNouveau posted:That is an interesting read on it. Since Daphne and Cameron seemed to be playing games with each other the whole time, them being in cahoots didn't really cross my mind. I might have to rewatch the earlier episodes to see what clues we get about how they were analyzing Ethan and Harper's relationship and how involved Daphne was. I'm pretty sure about Cameron's motivation for the trip but it's hard to tell how much he lets on to Daphne. I suppose he could have just told her to gently caress-off with Harper for a night so he could have some bro time and Daphne didn't really need to know more than that. quote:
hmmm. I don't know why Jack would warn her about danger at the hotel if there wasn't actual danger for her at the hotel.
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Dec 12, 2022 20:09
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 https://twitter.com/seeshannon/status/1602150553316134913
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Dec 12, 2022 20:12
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BetterLekNextTime posted:hmmm. I don't know why Jack would warn her about danger at the hotel if there wasn't actual danger for her at the hotel. He might not have been privy to the exact plan, all he needed to know was "we're killing Tanya tonight, keep the Zoomer distracted"
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Dec 12, 2022 20:12
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I don't think the plan was to kill Portia, I think Jack's warning is more along the lines of 'We're killing your boss, you shouldn't be there or else you might get caught in the crossfire', although I'm open to being totally wrong about it. It just seems like a much added risk for the crew, turning something that can be plausibly be seen as an accident into something that is much more likely to be read as an assassination. Cameron paying Lucia was the proof I needed that this wasn't about scamming/coercing Ethan into investing with Cameron. The guy has money. He's just a sociopath who can't help but try to take anything he can from Ethan and be top dog.
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Dec 12, 2022 20:26
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Mike N Eich posted:
That's funny because I had the opposite thought. The fact that he was comfortable slipping her money when Daphne was right next to him made me think he wasn't too worried about his wife knowing about it.
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Dec 12, 2022 20:55
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BetterLekNextTime posted:hmmm. I don't know why Jack would warn her about danger at the hotel if there wasn't actual danger for her at the hotel. I think she's not in danger if she just leaves because that was the plan the whole time. But is very much in danger if she shows up at the hotel going "Where's Tanya? This guy Jack kidnapped me and Tanya is with his friend Quentin and I think something bad is going to happen to her please call the police let's go look for her"
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Dec 12, 2022 21:03
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sticksy posted:All of that is WAY more elaborate than I think was depicted/intended Yeah the rope and duct tape was there because its loving hilarious. A duffle bag with rope, duct tape, and a gun is a funny sight gag as well as immediately conveying to the audience that yes, they are going to kill her without needing any corny dialogue. Then when Tanya comes out shooting, the audience is not distracted thinking "Oh, no, what if this is a tragic misunderstanding"
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Dec 12, 2022 21:04
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Mike N Eich posted:I don't think the plan was to kill Portia, I think Jack's warning is more along the lines of 'We're killing your boss, you shouldn't be there or else you might get caught in the crossfire', although I'm open to being totally wrong about it. It just seems like a much added risk for the crew, turning something that can be plausibly be seen as an accident into something that is much more likely to be read as an assassination. First off, gotta say Portia is dumb as hell for not listening to her gut and bailing. Getting in that car was so dumb on her part. And if the plan was to kill Tanya, which it was, the plan was probably to kill Portia too because why wouldn't you. I don't think Jack looked like he was carrying through with the plan when he was dropping her off, it looked more like he had a crisis of conscience and got her out of there. And since Portia was going to end up at the hotel at some point, the plan was probably for somebody to kill her there somehow and that's why Jack said don't go back. Mike N Eich posted:
Yea I don't think it was ever about scamming or coercing him either. Cameron works in investment banking and his friend just got a huge payday, it's not exactly out of left field for him to ask his friend to handle his money for him. Cameron is dumb douchebag and didn't give the right pitch at all to Ethan but it's not that big a deal to see if Ethan would invest his some of his money there. And I don't think Cameron is sociopath, I think he loves his wife and all that, he just isn't quite built to be totally monogamous or to totally give up the party lifestyle. I know a few couples who give each other "cheat nights" to go out and party with friends and fool around a bit and it's likely Cameron and Daphne would both find that lifestyle suits them alright too, they just haven't figured it out.
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Dec 12, 2022 21:22
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