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Orange Devil posted:I had a thought the other day: thinking that its even possible for a state to function in an omnipresent way is itself fascist and functionally demotes democracy from a genuinely superior ideology to harrison bergeron being forced to wear equality restraints its legit nuts how nazism and fascism are treated like this occult superpower of statecraft which we must avoid using because were the good guys and then everyone acts surprised that people fight over it like its the ring of power despite the fact that we very clearly said its bad and no one should use it
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Dec 13, 2022 12:23
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"totalitarianism" was and is a bogus concept invented from whole cloth to try to save the myth of western cultural superiority after it had given rise to the open barbarity of nazism, hth
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Dec 13, 2022 12:36
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gradenko_2000 posted:my take is, yes, there was a lot of public buy-in, and I tend to feel that there's way too much abnegation of the idea that entire peoples were culpable in the Holocaust Well, yes and no. Specifically holding the German people responsible is an inaccuracy imo, though given the level of buy-in that existed in German society, it is primarily an inaccuracy of omission. Though again let us not forget the relatively few Germans who fought on the Republican side in Spain, or were involved in resistance inside Germany proper. Again, as with so many other things, the proper way to understand history is to give nationality a much less prominent role than it gets in liberal historiography, and instead give a much more primary role to class and ideology. So again, Nazis and other fascists were the primary perpetrators, and these existed in significant numbers all over the continent. And indeed in the US as well. I'm sure FF will soon provide sources proving Canada was rife with fascists, too. The point then being that just as Eastern European complicity in the Holocaust has been shoved under the carpet, as discussed in this thread and the Ukraine War thread previously at length, so too has the Western European complicity in the Holocaust been memory-holed. Just through different mechanisms. And this contradiction of all these poor innocent countries being victims of German Nazism while also enthusiastically embracing the murdering of their own minorities is continuing to gently caress up the mainstream worldview taught, either explicitly or implicitly, in schools and reinforced in the media in those countries today. Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 13:10 on Dec 13, 2022 |
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Dec 13, 2022 13:02
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pssh come on man youre acting like nazis are taking over eastern europe and rewriting history books to make nazi collaborators the good guys surely if anything that horrifying were happening our freedom loving nazi hating media would be all over it
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Dec 13, 2022 13:11
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One of my aunts (a branch further on the family tree, my great-grandparents are her grandparents) married a dude who is a son of a German couple from Vojvodina. During WW2, the couple in question was literally offered their own plot of land and some I have my opinions on the expulsion of Germans from Vojvodina after WW2 (I believe my exact words when I mentioned it in the map thread years ago were "An insufficient number of Nazis was shot, but I'm not fond of compensating with 6 year olds") but generally the actions of the ones who shared the risks everyone else (except collaborators ofc) in Yugoslavia faced stand in sharp contrast to the ones who... didn't. As a funny sidenote, one of that aunt's sons looks like some chizeled out blonde blue eyed Hans on a Nazi propaganda poster (admittedly with longer hair), and is also a bog standard Serbian Orthodox Christian dude who happens to have a German surname. On a less funny note, their other son works as a professional diver, and was at one point sent to South Africe by the company he works for. At first, he was quarted with a bunch of black workers who kept making him the butt of every joke, and asked to be transferred. Then he got quartered with a white South African work crew, and immediattely regretted it and kept asking to be transfered back because, and I quote "Literally every single one of them had a swastika tattoo". If you're wondering why I have so many cousin anecdotes over the years without ever running out - all my great-grandparents were hicks who had nothing to do in their spare time but gently caress. I have a lot of cousins. Like, a lot of cousins. Also, since the hicks I descend from have one of the strongest taboos against incest on the planet, it's an expansive tree with no overlap even for several generations beyond my great-grandparents. e: I also have a lot of military people in the family tree. Father is a veteran, maternal grandfather a retired military officer, one of my great-aunts married into a big name Serbian military family, etc. My childhood playground was a semi-abandoned military barracks where I was allowed to hang out in because my best childhood friend is the son of a colonel. my dad has issued a correction as of 14:00 on Dec 13, 2022 |
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Dec 13, 2022 13:53
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Modern History] an insufficient number of Nazis were shot
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Dec 13, 2022 15:24
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gradenko_2000 posted:the thing I learned from Programmed to Chill's series on Krupp Steel was that slave labor was openly walking around the streets of Essen (and presumably other cities in the Ruhr Valley), and they had to put up signs informing the public to please do not feed the animals (my metaphor) see stuff like this is why i won’t criticize bomber Harris
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Dec 13, 2022 15:26
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i'll criticize bomber harris, his targeting strategy was absolute dogshit for most of the war
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Dec 13, 2022 15:37
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I've talked about it before in the military history threads, but one of my great-uncles spent several years during WW2 as a slave laborer near Klagenfurt, and that's only after the Hungarian dude he worked for back home/whose daughter he was dating spent his entire saving bribing fascist officials to keep him out of a death camp. I'm considering sharing something from my hometown to explain just what sort of local guys were running the show for the Nazis (this one in particular was a local Serb dude), but it's kind of dark, and involved a lot of dead kids. Kinda... not wanting to ruin my day by writing it up right now? my dad has issued a correction as of 15:52 on Dec 13, 2022 |
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Dec 13, 2022 15:50
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my dad posted:I've talked about it before in the military history threads, but one of my great-uncles spent several years during WW2 as a slave laborer near Klagenfurt, and that's only after the Hungarian dude he worked for back home/whose daughter he was dating spent his entire saving bribing fascist officials to keep him out of a death camp. sounds awful. not to steal your thunder or anything, and it's probably more morbid than anything else, but I've always found the Ustase concentration camps very very bleakly funny. not only did they come up with the fantastic idea of building a children's concentration camp, the loving SS found their concentration camps too cruel. can't even comprehend what'd you have to do to freak out the SS
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Dec 13, 2022 16:04
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oscarthewilde posted:sounds awful. not to steal your thunder or anything, and it's probably more morbid than anything else, but I've always found the Ustase concentration camps very very bleakly funny. not only did they come up with the fantastic idea of building a children's concentration camp, the loving SS found their concentration camps too cruel. can't even comprehend what'd you have to do to freak out the SS
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Dec 13, 2022 16:11
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The Einsatzgruppen who included a sizeable number of non-SS policemen had a real problem with what shooting hundreds of defenseless people a day does to a person if theyre not a diehard SS psychopath. Eventually Himmler witnessed a mass execution in person and decided that they needed to come up with something else.
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Dec 13, 2022 17:38
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I remember reading some memoir or something where an officer tried to explain that lacking the stomach to shoot hundreds of untermench a day wasn't necessarily a moral falling, that those guys were just more suited to standing watch or whatever while the other dudes did the shooting.
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Dec 13, 2022 17:52
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Slavvy posted:I remember reading some memoir or something where an officer tried to explain that lacking the stomach to shoot hundreds of untermench a day wasn't necessarily a moral falling, that those guys were just more suited to standing watch or whatever while the other dudes did the shooting.
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Dec 13, 2022 17:55
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Wasn't it kind of an issue in general that even the SS didn't have that much of a stomach for wanton slaughter, hence having to industrialize the killings to protect their feelings? yeah the issue is that nobody (okay, maybe a few people) ever actually has the stomach to shoot or otherwise kill that many people, so they had to invent ways of mass killing people that were either depersonalized enough that people wouldn't balk at pulling the trigger, and/or that it would involve such few people that you could leave it up to just those who would continue to willingly do it over and over
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Dec 13, 2022 17:59
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Slavvy posted:I remember reading some memoir or something where an officer tried to explain that lacking the stomach to shoot hundreds of untermench a day wasn't necessarily a moral falling, that those guys were just more suited to standing watch or whatever while the other dudes did the shooting. This is a big theme of Christopher Browning's Ordinary Men
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Dec 13, 2022 18:04
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https://twitter.com/Faec_Vir/status/1604420373612679168?t=Ys-vfjfWsJkVKHmMuWEvfg&s=19 "Actually I was only pretending to be R-"[drowned out by cannon fire]
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Dec 19, 2022 08:33
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It's very embarrassing when you end up having to reload like ten times because you're too nervous to mess up in front of your pals, and end up not even being able to hit a crowd of people standing still.
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Dec 19, 2022 09:11
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a strange fowl posted:now imagine you are the person being shot i think abp is commenting on the pre-ww2 tendency for draftees to never fire a shot, even on the front line, because war loving sucks before then militias were very local so they were likely to know the people that were yelling at the prince
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Dec 19, 2022 11:19
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imagine it though
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Dec 19, 2022 12:00
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Huh so there was one interwar German who wanted to ally with the Soviets to stop the Poles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_von_Seeckt#First_World_War Seeckt saw the Second Polish Republic as the core of the problems in the east, and believed its existence was incompatible with Germany's vital interests.[29] He was in favor of an alliance with the Soviet Union, which along with Germany had also lost territory to Poland. After seeing encouraging signs from the newly established War Commissar's Office of Leon Trotsky, Seeckt sent out his close friend Enver Pasha on a secret mission to Moscow to make contacts with the Soviets.[40] In the summer of 1920, Pasha sent Seeckt a letter from Moscow asking for German arms deliveries to the Soviet Union in exchange for which Trotsky promised to partition Poland with Germany. Seeckt did not hesitate to use military force against attempts by German Bolsheviks to take power, but his concern over communism did not affect his attitude toward relations with the Soviet Union.[41] Seeckt regarded his informal alliance with the Soviet Union in practical rather than ideological terms. Both nations were weak at the end of the war, and had external threats. In working together, he believed the hand of both nations were strengthened.[29] Seeckt regarded the efforts of General Rüdiger von der Goltz and his Freikorps to create an anti-communist, German-dominated state in the Baltic as a ludicrous attempt to turn back the clock.[42] Seeckt was all for seeing Goltz conquer the Baltic states if that was possible, but he was very antagonistic towards Goltz's efforts to use his proposed state as a basis for overthrowing the Bolsheviks. Seeckt saw Poland as the main enemy and the Soviet Union as a very useful ally against Poland, so he viewed Goltz's anti-Communist schemes with some hostility. In 1921, Seeckt had Kurt von Schleicher of Sondergruppe R, negotiate the arrangements with Leonid Krasin for German aid to the Soviet arms industry.[57] In September 1921, at a secret meeting in Schleicher's apartment, the details of an arrangement for German financial and technological aid for building up the Soviet arms industry in exchange for Soviet support in helping Germany evade the disarmament clauses of the Treaty of Versailles were agreed to.[58] Schleicher created a shell corporation known as the GEFU (Gesellschaft zur Förderung gewerblicher Unternehmungen-Company for the promotion of industrial enterprise) that funneled 75 million Reichsmark into the Soviet arms industry.[59] The GEFU founded factories in the Soviet Union for the production of aircraft, tanks, artillery shells and poison gas.[60] The arms contracts of GEFU in the Soviet Union ensured that Germany did not fall behind in military technology in the 1920s despite being disarmed by Versailles, and laid the covert foundations in the 1920s for the overt rearmament of the 1930s.[61] Seeckt saw France, with its large continental army, as the main threat to Germany, and the opponent in a future war. He saw Poland as a vassal state of France. He advocated strengthening Germany by whatever means were available, including reaching out to the Soviet Union. He believed England would eventually be compelled to fight a war against its historic enemy, France, and that when such an event occurred England would be looking for an ally on the continent to carry the burden of a land war. He felt a strong Germany would be a more attractive ally than a weak one. The support between Germany and the Soviets was seen in this light, as an agreement that would add to the strength of both nations. He did not believe such an agreement would alienate England. Though Seeckt was strongly anti-communist and was committed to keeping communism from Germany, that did not mean he would not make deals with the Soviet Union that would help Germany's position in the world. Maximo Roboto has issued a correction as of 08:16 on Dec 20, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2022 08:13
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Ran into a Tiktok account called "Belgian Congo" which had an interview with some little freak claiming that ACTUALLY it was the personal property of Leopold II and only after they became aware of the abuses there the Belgians took over and their reign was the best Congo has been governed ever since and i swear to god i wanted to punch a wall In more real world news, the Belgian parliamentary commission on our colonial history was supposed to make their recommendations this week, but failed to do so because the liberal parties refused any notion of including an apology to the Congolese people, using much of the same reasoning as these TikTok freaks. So, the commission - which was a watered down white-wash operation from the start - failed to even reach their watered down white-wash of a conclusion. It wasn't going to contain any reparations, it didn't look into how nearly all of the most powerful Belgian companies and families made their fortunes directly exploiting Congo (and how some still do), it didn't go into the full time period and I don't think it even included what Belgium got up to in Rwanda and Burundi, and of course the royals were treated with absolute kid gloves - yet still, it was too much. This is all happening in the same year as auction houses in Brussels were selling the actual skulls of Congolese people, and in the same year as Belgium handed over the teeth of Patrice Lumumba to his relatives.
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Dec 22, 2022 19:27
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Would be better to punch the idiot than a wall tbh Speaking of apologies, the Netherlands apologized for slavery last Monday.
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Dec 22, 2022 22:20
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Orange Devil posted:Would be better to punch the idiot than a wall tbh a zwarte feat
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Dec 22, 2022 22:23
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Speaking of Zwarte Piet, even the most backwards places' official Sinterklaas committees are phasing out the previous standard look for a new look. The "obvious white person smeared with soot" look is set to be the new standard (as opposed to fully black with red lipstick and big golden earrings). I expect the last holdouts to give way in the next 2 or 3 years at most, at which point it will have been 15 years since the current protests began.
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Dec 22, 2022 22:35
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soot covered miner is a good look.
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Dec 22, 2022 23:24
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Isn't black pete supposed to be a Moor? Stupid Hollanders can't even do racism right.
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Dec 22, 2022 23:35
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Weka posted:Isn't black pete supposed to be a Moor? Stupid Hollanders can't even do racism right. nah zinterklaas is the moor, black pete is presumably his slave Orange Devil posted:Speaking of Zwarte Piet, even the most backwards places' official Sinterklaas committees are phasing out the previous standard look for a new look. The "obvious white person smeared with soot" look is set to be the new standard (as opposed to fully black with red lipstick and big golden earrings). I expect the last holdouts to give way in the next 2 or 3 years at most, at which point it will have been 15 years since the current protests began. the soot look (or, like, a particularly filthy kid playing with ink) has been the standard for the black pete character in norway since at least the fifties. he plays a much smaller cultural role here than in the netherlands, but among people of my age he's still a reference people get - the dutch version genuinely surprised me when i learned of it
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Dec 22, 2022 23:39
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I haven't read any angry letters to the editor from the 70s and 80s complaining about Hollywood movies depicting racial equality that read eerily similarly to present day rants. Surely there had to be mountains of them?
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Dec 23, 2022 00:41
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Serbia has a black licorice candy named 'Negro', after the surname of the Italian dude who made the recipe for that specific mix and the color of the mix (being the Italian word for black), and the advertising slogan was "the chimney sweeper for your throat" causing the mascot to be... uh... As far as I'm aware, it's genuinely just a coincidence.
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Dec 23, 2022 00:46
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V. Illych L. posted:nah zinterklaas is the moor, black pete is presumably his slave Well my point stands, Moors are not from Anatolia!
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Dec 23, 2022 00:57
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Lots of people wanted to be buddies with France after WWI, and nothing bad happened to any of them! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Entente
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Dec 23, 2022 06:37
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FPyat posted:I haven't read any angry letters to the editor from the 70s and 80s complaining about Hollywood movies depicting racial equality that read eerily similarly to present day rants. Surely there had to be mountains of them? i can't parse this post but i did glance at ur post history. milhist plus warhammer. explains enough!
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Dec 23, 2022 06:41
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Weka posted:Isn't black pete supposed to be a Moor? Stupid Hollanders can't even do racism right. americans and dutch both agree that every african looks like aunt jemima.
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Dec 23, 2022 09:46
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my dad posted:Serbia has a black licorice candy named 'Negro', after the surname of the Italian dude who made the recipe for that specific mix and the color of the mix (being the Italian word for black), and the advertising slogan was "the chimney sweeper for your throat" causing the mascot to be... uh... Negro is truly terrible, thanks for reminding me. The lowest ranked candy of my childhood, alongside the equally bafflingly named Bronhi. 
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Dec 23, 2022 11:50
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Yeah, absolutely vile tasting. For the non-Yugo audience: The mascot doesn't look like it did before, obv.
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Dec 23, 2022 11:59
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they found the darkest man in serbia to model for it.
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Dec 23, 2022 12:44
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Tankbuster posted:they found the darkest man in serbia to model for it. lmao On a more serious note, you do get color variance here. For one, the Romani people are generally more populous than is acknowledged, and also have a tendency to quitely drop the 'being Romani' part if they're pale enough (A cousin is married to a 'Croatian' guy like that). We're racist as hell against them, but there's a... history of being targeted by the exact same people for the exact same reasons, which does help stop this when brought up, especially if done in an organized manner as the communists did, as temporary as it was. The goon Salty Jesus and I met up IRL (and then we had to run from a tornado, long story), he got mistaken for Romani a couple of times, and speaks fluent enough Spanish that Latino tourists would mistake him for being from that other Latin American country. Generally, southern parts of Serbia are more Meditteranean looking than us lilly-whites from up north. For other darker skinned people: In the NAM days (we're technically still a member but lol) a lot of Africans, Middle Easterners, etc came to Yugoslavia to study - my father's good buddies from his student days were a dude from Ghana and a Palestinian from Jordan. They stayed here after their studies ended, but both eventually left Yugoslavia when it started collapsing, and he never saw them again. He gets really sentimental when he talks about them. Montenegro had a coastal village inhabited by a mix of Arabs and Black Africans, they were Muslim and primarily spoke Albanian - a mix of traders, freed or escaped slaves, sailors, totally-not-pirates, and their descendants. They remained entirely untouched during the wars between Slavic Orthodox Christian tribes in Montenegro and Slavic Muslim tribes backed by the Ottomans (that the Christians eventually won under the leadership of elected warrior poet bishop princes, resulting in the destruction of the local Muslim tribes as coherent entities, and their eventual assimilation into either Muslim Albanian or Christian Slav populations) due to a quirk of Montenegro's weird tribal libertarian culture. Basically, slavery was seen really, really, really, really, really, really, really bad, and breaking free of slavery among the highest signs of honor. Their interactions can be summed up as "Who the gently caress are you guys and what are you doing here?" "I punched my way off a slave ship, dunno about the rest" "Understandable, have a nice day." They suffered pretty badly during WW2 for reasons I'm sure aren't difficult to guess. Quite a few of them ended up joining the communist Partizans (although in absolute numbers their presence was tiny of course). There's a funny anecdote from a Partizan unit. A black dude from that village was stationed in the unit, and one guy, thinking he can't understand him, yelled "Where'd you find Uglješa over there?" (Uglješa is a fairly normal name, but Ugalj means charcoal, with obvious implications. I'm not sure from context if it was playful or bigoted, it's not inherently insulting) To which 'Uglješa' yelled in reply "In Montenegro! (Crna Gora - Black Mountain) - why else do you think it's named that way?", causing an uproar of laughter among the rest of the unit while the wiseguy just stared slack-jawed. The black dude took up 'Uglješa' as a nome-de-guerre afterwards. I know that a dude from the village remained as an actor and iirc a photographer. There's an old movie where he's one of the two lead actors and it's basically just two middle aged blue collar bros hanging out. The village itself wasn't really viable anymore, and the population ended up scattering over Yugoslavia and the NAM countries. Not many of them remain now.
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Dec 23, 2022 13:38
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i say swears online posted:i can't parse this post but i did glance at ur post history. milhist plus warhammer. explains enough! It's me wondering about cold war-era racists being mad that movies were depicting integration. Maybe Nixonland has some examples.
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Dec 23, 2022 13:57
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Tankbuster posted:they found the darkest man in serbia to model for it. Tupac looks different from what I remember
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