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20 hours in and those were top 2 encounters so far. Yeah, the grenades are overtuned so far compared to other Area attacks. Flamers, Psychic lightning bolts or Navigators Warp Gaze are all weaker than a regular Frag Grenade.
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Dec 13, 2022 23:23
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Which is funny, because frag grenades are more utility items rather than viable weapons in tabletop.
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Dec 13, 2022 23:35
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Yeah. My best use for frag genades was on deathwatch rpg, where dropping them on your feet made Genestealers dodge them out of melee range and thus losing their multiple attacks for the turn.
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Dec 14, 2022 00:13
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Preechr posted:Which is funny, because frag grenades are more utility items rather than viable weapons in tabletop. Krak grenades do a guaranteed 25 dmg, 8 penetration, which means in a good turn your party can dish out at least 150 damage to a single target which is a monstrous amount based on projected health pools. Realistically I don't know how far the power creep goes but the base combat doesn't seem like it will lend itself to enemies having 500+ hp because no character can do more then 20-30 at max (in melee only so far), with their Heroic Invocation maybe attacking a handful of times once per encounter. Most of the combat buffs even seem to be focused just on improving ability to hit, not actual combat damage.
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Dec 14, 2022 00:42
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Seems pretty obvious they haven't done a combat balance pass yet, no? I wouldn't be too worried yet.
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Dec 14, 2022 00:44
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It's more that being a new system the typical Owlcat approach to difficulty is to just inflate numbers like crazy even compared to the typical ttrpg stats. Skill checks in Kingmaker & WOTR quickly got to the point by midgame where no one but a high level character dedicated to that skill from level 1 would even have a chance of passing outside of nat 20.
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Dec 14, 2022 00:53
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As someone who has not played their 2 previous games, the idea I’m getting from reading this thread and others on different forums, is that this is an amazing concept for a turned based RPG, but Owlcat is not at all equipped to be the company to pull it off with the merit the concept deserves.
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Dec 14, 2022 01:06
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nah owlcat kicks rear end
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Dec 14, 2022 01:14
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Mad Wack posted:nah owlcat kicks rear end
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Dec 14, 2022 01:16
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Megasabin posted:As someone who has not played their 2 previous games, the idea I’m getting from reading this thread and others on different forums, is that this is an amazing concept for a turned based RPG, but Owlcat is not at all equipped to be the company to pull it off with the merit the concept deserves. there is really not a company I can think of better positioned to do it MAYBE the X-Com teams could do something fun with the combat but their track record with a good plot/overworld is mixed at best
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Dec 14, 2022 01:38
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Megasabin posted:As someone who has not played their 2 previous games, the idea I’m getting from reading this thread and others on different forums, is that this is an amazing concept for a turned based RPG, but Owlcat is not at all equipped to be the company to pull it off with the merit the concept deserves. We bitch, but it is because we love their poo poo. They really do need to work on ridiculous number inflation, but that’s all stuff that can be fixed, if not by themselves then by mods.
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Dec 14, 2022 01:41
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Yeah this game is probably 18 months away at least, and Owlcat is generally quite good at responding to feedback. They’ll probably creat new bugs or bite or more than they can chew, but they will make it a fun and good game.
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Dec 14, 2022 01:44
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Preechr posted:We bitch, but it is because we love their poo poo. They really do need to work on ridiculous number inflation, but that’s all stuff that can be fixed, if not by themselves then by mods. The people behind Toybox basically had a working version up right away for the WOTR beta that they kept updated pretty quickly with each beta update.
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Dec 14, 2022 01:48
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Megasabin posted:As someone who has not played their 2 previous games, the idea I’m getting from reading this thread and others on different forums, is that this is an amazing concept for a turned based RPG, but Owlcat is not at all equipped to be the company to pull it off with the merit the concept deserves. Owlcat's final, end result is usually pretty good. The process they use to get there is inexcusably awful and people should absolutely hold them more accountable for that, but they never will, so every game they release will continue to be buggy and barely-complete at best for at least the first three to six months, as The Gamers are used as unpaid playtesters and thank Owlcat for the "privilege". But yeah the final game will probably be pretty good. Wait until they release the "Enhanced" (READ: Finished) Edition before picking it up, though.
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Dec 14, 2022 02:26
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My one hope is that they find the opportunity to add a Kin companion between now and release. e: Though now that I think about it I don't think any Kin with an ounce of self-preservation instinct would willingly fly on an Imperial ship. They'd rightfully see the thing as the elaborate death trap it really is Bloody Pom fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Dec 14, 2022 |
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Dec 14, 2022 02:29
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Owlcat is also notorious for being extremely in love with the management aspects of the game despite them being regarded as the weakest part of the games, by far, and overly complicated for little to no benefit. Their auto modes for said management systems also manage to be worse in almost every regard and potentially breaking the game.
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Dec 14, 2022 02:35
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Bloody Pom posted:My one hope is that they find the opportunity to add a Kin companion between now and release.
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Dec 14, 2022 07:35
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Terrible Opinions posted:A what? A Squat.
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Dec 14, 2022 08:16
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pentyne posted:Owlcat is also notorious for being extremely in love with the management aspects of the game despite them being regarded as the weakest part of the games, by far, and overly complicated for little to no benefit. Also unnecessarily obtuse puzzles and stories that are gated behind obscure decisions you took dozens of hours before. And an odd mix of extremely varied character options contrasted with encounter design that assumes you min-maxxed into a set of very optimal specs. The thing is, while you can imagine someone coming along and doing better, they are good enough in this specific niche where there isn't any real competition that the advice is still 'buy the complete edition' rather than 'avoid'.
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Dec 14, 2022 10:11
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I've never actually played an Owlcat because the 'ludicrously-wide possible build variety + extremely narrow viable build variety' sounds incredibly tedious to me. I'd be happy to be restricted to a few character options, but don't give me 3000 options and require me to keep a wiki open in the other window to see which ones I'm allowed to take. That's why I was hoping Rogue Trader would have a simpler system, but it seems like they've brought a lot of D&D3.5 with them? The Lone Badger fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Dec 14, 2022 |
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Dec 14, 2022 10:16
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The Lone Badger posted:I've never actually played an Owlcat because the 'ludicrously-wide possible build variety + extremely narrow viable build variety' sounds incredibly tedious to me. I'd be happy to be restricted to a few character options, but don't give me 3000 options and require me to keep a wiki open in the other window to see which ones I'm allowed to take. Ditto, though at least with the Pathfinder games that seemed like a flaw from D&D 3.5e that Paizo decided to make into a selling point of the Pathfinder system in order to differentiate themselves, which Owlcat then inherited.
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Dec 14, 2022 10:26
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Slashrat posted:Ditto, though at least with the Pathfinder games that seemed like a flaw from D&D 3.5e that Paizo decided to make into a selling point of the Pathfinder system in order to differentiate themselves, which Owlcat then inherited. I think it's a case of convergent evolution, where Owlcat also thinks the obtuse complexity is a selling point, rather than a flaw.
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Dec 14, 2022 10:32
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Nobody made Owlcat design encounters where enemies are given permament buffs by a bunch of off-screen wizards.
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Dec 14, 2022 10:39
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Kanos posted:That seems to be the aesthetic that 40k games are going for lately, since that's also how a lot of the Darktide dialogue is written. 
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Dec 14, 2022 11:21
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The Lone Badger posted:I've never actually played an Owlcat because the 'ludicrously-wide possible build variety + extremely narrow viable build variety' sounds incredibly tedious to me. I'd be happy to be restricted to a few character options, but don't give me 3000 options and require me to keep a wiki open in the other window to see which ones I'm allowed to take. To be fair, on normal difficulty in Pathfinder the button “level up automatically” does a good enough job.
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Dec 14, 2022 11:23
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The Lone Badger posted:A Squat. A Scrunt.
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Dec 14, 2022 11:26
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Rogue Trader is less complex than DnD variants on virtue of no spell bloat. Both casters have 2-3 spells they use occasionally, but they both mainly do melee (inquisitor) or snipe (unsanctioned). Most complex character I have is Navigator who has leadership abilities to make allies move and attack out of turn.
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Dec 14, 2022 11:34
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The Lone Badger posted:Squat. Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:A Scrunt. A foetid runt! Slam, the sector he is from Head on body without neck Eating trash and screaming FECK
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Dec 14, 2022 14:55
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The Lone Badger posted:I've never actually played an Owlcat because the 'ludicrously-wide possible build variety + extremely narrow viable build variety' sounds incredibly tedious to me. I'd be happy to be restricted to a few character options, but don't give me 3000 options and require me to keep a wiki open in the other window to see which ones I'm allowed to take. The narrow viability is only a problem for core or above. You can take a single class character, and make sure to specialize in the role you want, and be completely fine. It is a game where a jack of all trades is massively weaker and not really viable to play. Now multi-classing, that's something you need to spreadsheet out from level 1-20 well in advance so you know what you are doing. Taking 1-2 ranks of a complimentary class is obvious, but full on 4/5/11 builds are not something you will be able to just guess and make work. Fat Samurai posted:To be fair, on normal difficulty in Pathfinder the button “level up automatically” does a good enough job. Sort of, but the auto level for the companions in Wrath is hilariously bad compared to their encounter design. Making weirdly sub-optimal NPCs was a thing in Kingmaker that got more then a few complaints about poorly optimized characters in a game system that expects the reverse. pentyne fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Dec 14, 2022 |
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Dec 14, 2022 18:44
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Righto, just finished what there is of the alpha, and I'm gonna say that I loving love what they have. About my only complaint is that combat is a little too slow; if there was a 'speed up combat animations' button, I couldn't find it, derp. Otherwise though, it was a thoroughly enjoyable experience, and I can't wait for the full release, bugs and all!
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Dec 15, 2022 20:45
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GW's strategy of hurling the Warhammer license at every developer in sight continues to pay off!
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Dec 15, 2022 21:54
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CommissarMega posted:Righto, just finished what there is of the alpha, and I'm gonna say that I loving love what they have. About my only complaint is that combat is a little too slow; if there was a 'speed up combat animations' button, I couldn't find it, derp. Otherwise though, it was a thoroughly enjoyable experience, and I can't wait for the full release, bugs and all! How much you engage with the ship combat? It looks real tedious unless you are vastly overpowered.
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Dec 15, 2022 23:39
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pentyne posted:How much you engage with the ship combat? It looks real tedious unless you are vastly overpowered. I'm actually planning a longer writeup later once I've had some sleep, but the long and short of it is that ship combat can be both tedious and exciting, and it really depends on your grasp of the ship combat mechanics, the AI (currently not very good, I'll go into more detail later), as well as the number of ships involved. I've had battles that bored me, battles that frustrated me in a bad way, and battles that were genuinely exciting. In terms of quantity, there weren't all that many, so I won't suggest looking into this game for your Battlefleet Gothic 3 fix.
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Dec 15, 2022 23:46
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Bloody Pom posted:GW's strategy of hurling the Warhammer license at every developer in sight continues to pay off! Actually this is slowly changing and that change is the reason we have been getting better games lately. GW had a big change in management around 2016 and one of the things the new head dude said at the time is they wanted to fix the lovely games issue because the old management had thought games were dumb and just sold the license to anybody who asked. However, he said they were locked into long term contracts plus game development cycles are long so we wouldn't start seeing a change until the early '20s. It did sound like they would keep giving licenses for the mobile games to whoever paid though. It seems to me it wasn't total bullshit. We've gotten quite a few decent to great games in the last couple of years. It's still got a ways to go in my opinion but it certainly better than in the past.
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Dec 16, 2022 00:23
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D-Pad posted:Actually this is slowly changing and that change is the reason we have been getting better games lately. It's a weird cycle. Prior to 2008 getting a GW games license was near impossible. Then they opened the floodgates and there were tons of lovely games made including low budget phone games for some of their biggest named IP like Eisenhorn. If the wiki is right, there were more W40k games released in 2017 and 2018 then games released before 2009 (DoW2)
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Dec 16, 2022 00:41
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D-Pad posted:Actually this is slowly changing and that change is the reason we have been getting better games lately. Personally, I think that the 'license to anyone' approach worked out pretty well and is preferable to how some other franchises cautiously gate off their IP's. Sure, there was a lot of poo poo but no-one pays any attention to those and it let us get a few stand out games across a number of genre's plus it likely did a lot to keep Warhammer in the public consciousness. Compared to, say, Star Wars kneecapping itself by licensing the IP exclusively to EA who did nothing but release those lovely Battlefront games its a better way to go about things imo.
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Dec 16, 2022 01:11
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theres been so many warhammer games that i dont really care if the majority of them are pieces of poo poo made by no name french studios
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Dec 16, 2022 01:16
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Nephthys posted:Personally, I think that the 'license to anyone' approach worked out pretty well and is preferable to how some other franchises cautiously gate off their IP's. Sure, there was a lot of poo poo but no-one pays any attention to those and it let us get a few stand out games across a number of genre's plus it likely did a lot to keep Warhammer in the public consciousness. Compared to, say, Star Wars kneecapping itself by licensing the IP exclusively to EA who did nothing but release those lovely Battlefront games its a better way to go about things imo. I mean yeah except it went too far and became a meme in the game community that all warhammer games are poo poo because anybody can make one. A large part of the playerbase just automatically assumes any warhammer game isn't worth their time which scares off the really great developers from making big investments. That has started to change in the last few years. Like I don't want them to go the Star Wars route either, a more open licensing route to get more Warhammer out is preferable to me but what they did prior to a couple of years ago was just plain bad.
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Dec 16, 2022 01:22
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Nephthys posted:Personally, I think that the 'license to anyone' approach worked out pretty well and is preferable to how some other franchises cautiously gate off their IP's. Sure, there was a lot of poo poo but no-one pays any attention to those and it let us get a few stand out games across a number of genre's plus it likely did a lot to keep Warhammer in the public consciousness. Compared to, say, Star Wars kneecapping itself by licensing the IP exclusively to EA who did nothing but release those lovely Battlefront games its a better way to go about things imo. the Extra Credit youtube channel did a pair of pretty good videos on how this process worked for GW some years back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOVrmfXolQg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtY3Lto_lR4 edit: one of the key take-aways from the second video is that GW seems to ruthlessly enforce IP quality control, rather than quality control on the games themselves. They were fine with the game being dogshit as long as it nailed the feel and presentation of whatever part of the setting it focused on. Slashrat fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Dec 16, 2022 |
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Dec 16, 2022 11:31
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D-Pad posted:I mean yeah except it went too far and became a meme in the game community that all warhammer games are poo poo because anybody can make one. A large part of the playerbase just automatically assumes any warhammer game isn't worth their time which scares off the really great developers from making big investments. That has started to change in the last few years. Like I don't want them to go the Star Wars route either, a more open licensing route to get more Warhammer out is preferable to me but what they did prior to a couple of years ago was just plain bad. I don't think this is really true. People love and remember the big hits like the Total Warhammer series, Vermintide 1/2, Dawn of War 1/2, etc. whereas I really don't think most people know about or care about Warhammer: Doomwheel or Necromunda: Gang Skirmish or whatever other bottom tier shovelware poo poo got made. The "license to everyone" strategy was incredibly important because if they hadn't been willing to give complete randos a chance a lot of good games would have never happened. Fatshark was very much a B-list nobody studio before Vermintide. It's also produced a fair amount of games that, while they're not super top class game of the year material, they're still fun 7/10 and 8/10 experiences that are worth playing like Mechanicus, the Battlefleet Gothic games, and Chaos Gate: Daemonhunters.
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