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I think they underestimated how important having the highest level of spells on time is - if you think that all spell levels are created equal you might go "ah, look how many level 1 spells you get going this route, clearly that will translate into something good", not thinking about how bad the action economy of using those spells is during combat. In fairness, you can make it sorta work if you are angling more towards a buff-focused build, but if you actually want to build an arcane/divine hybrid optimally you go for one of the nonsense ways, like rainbow servant to get the cleric and wizard spell list or at least do some kind of cheesy crap like using the theurge advancement to progress sublime chord (I think there are better options for classes with their own casting but IDR them now) Edit: Ur-Priest! That's the one you use for hijinks, it gets a new level of divine spell every class level so you end up with your first 9th lvl divine spell at Ur-Priest 9 - you go arcane class for 5 levels, 1 level of Ur-Priest, then theurge for the full run and end up with 9th lvl divine and 8th lvl arcane at character level 16 BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Dec 14, 2022 |
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Dec 14, 2022 00:04
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From my understanding, 3rd Ed suffered from poor playtesting: whoever was testing the rules wasn't trying to break the game just assumed that it would be played like 2nd edition, not just in terms of party composition but tactical choices. So it wasn't until the game was in consumer hands that it became clear that the changes they made to saving throws, hit point progression, multiple attacks, and spellcasting massively blew up how good wizards were even at a low level.
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Dec 14, 2022 00:12
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SirPhoebos posted:From my understanding, 3rd Ed suffered from poor playtesting: whoever was testing the rules wasn't trying to break the game just assumed that it would be played like 2nd edition, not just in terms of party composition but tactical choices. So it wasn't until the game was in consumer hands that it became clear that the changes they made to saving throws, hit point progression, multiple attacks, and spellcasting massively blew up how good wizards were even at a low level. That's what I gather too. In AD&D HP was low across the board, save-or-die was relatively rare, and fighters had good saves anyway, so direct damage was a great way to make a powerful wizard, with the downside that you were super fragile yourself. Playtesters told to break the system made builds and used strategies that would have been powerful in 2e, and found out that wizards were less fragile but opponents were better at tanking fireballs too so it was better balanced, right?
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Dec 14, 2022 00:39
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Mystic Theurge appeals to a greedy little weirdo part of my brain that giggles and screams about getting all the spells and schemes how to add stuff that's exclusive to other spell lists as well, no matter how suboptimal it actually is. I still desperately want to play one.
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Dec 14, 2022 01:11
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So... what's wrong with the class, exactly? Googling around, I get a lot of "you just need to know how to play" and "only really blossoms at high levels".
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Dec 14, 2022 01:23
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Xander77 posted:So... what's wrong with the class, exactly? Googling around, I get a lot of "you just need to know how to play" and "only really blossoms at high levels". It has a lot of lower-level spells but is perpetually behind the curve on higher-level ones. Basically, you'll be a 13-th level wizard/13th-level cleric when the rest of the party is at 16th level, and in many cases casting a higher-level spell once is more useful than having to cast several lower-level ones over several turns. In theory you gain in utility what you lose in raw power, but the trouble with D&D spellcasters is that they have *too much* utility already, so what you lose costs more than what you gain unless you have really specific plans on what to do with your metric ton of 2nd-level magic.
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Dec 14, 2022 01:29
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Xander77 posted:So... what's wrong with the class, exactly? Googling around, I get a lot of "you just need to know how to play" and "only really blossoms at high levels". The mystic theurge? Higher-level spells are the most powerful abilities in the system by far, and aren’t compensated for by having more low-level spells, even two different characters’ worth. Becoming a mystic theurge delays you getting higher level spells long enough you’re not as powerful if you just stuck to casting one kind of spell in the first place.
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Dec 14, 2022 01:31
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Rand Brittain posted:It has a lot of lower-level spells but is perpetually behind the curve on higher-level ones. Basically, you'll be a 13-th level wizard/13th-level cleric when the rest of the party is at 16th level, and in many cases casting a higher-level spell once is more useful than having to cast several lower-level ones over several turns.
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Dec 14, 2022 01:48
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I like how we have become completely divorced from discussing politics of tabletop games in any way. To the point I'm not too sure how to get back on topic (perhaps discussing implicit politics, particularly the reaction from fans when WotC tried to course correct on caster supremacy?)
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Dec 14, 2022 02:22
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Shadowrun made a dragon president then blew him up in his limo.
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Dec 14, 2022 07:01
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SirPhoebos posted:I like how we have become completely divorced from discussing politics of tabletop games in any way. To the point I'm not too sure how to get back on topic (perhaps discussing implicit politics, particularly the reaction from fans when WotC tried to course correct on caster supremacy?) A lot of the 4e grognard stuff was compounded by some of the worst marketing I've ever seen. Pulling the magazine license from Paizo (leading to Pathfinder and edition wars), going from the OGL to the more restrictive 4e license, Essentials, "videogamey combat" but not releasing any videogames (that's more on Atari, but still), the spellplague, etc There is a version of 4e that nerfs casters in a way that most people are happy about, but Wizards routinely shot themselves in the foot at every opportunity
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Dec 14, 2022 07:04
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I’ll say that I thought 4e was a better system and I absolutely wanted to run campaigns with it, but WotC decided that selling books wasn’t making enough money and subscription services were the more of the future, and what actually killed my ability to get games of it going was the need to pay $10 a month for access to on-line character generation and management tools. Stuff that had been free and extensive for 3.5e was all paywalled for 4 and free versions were actively hit with cease & desists. So capitalism ruins everything yet again, there’s your weird tabletop politics
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Dec 14, 2022 08:17
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Shrecknet posted:Shadowrun made a dragon president then blew him up in his limo. I always read this as a metaphor for Kennedy, but I wonder if there were different intentions behind it. I came in partway through 3e so lots of the established metaplot big character stuff was in the past for me.
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Dec 14, 2022 12:10
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Magnetic North posted:I always read this as a metaphor for Kennedy, but I wonder if there were different intentions behind it. I came in partway through 3e so lots of the established metaplot big character stuff was in the past for me. Was absolutely meant to be that kind of big assassination inspiring a million conspiracy theories but a big part is more that President Dragon is almost certainly not actually dead and very likely planned the whole thing. His will is a pretty famous bit of plot and lols.
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Dec 14, 2022 13:01
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Was absolutely meant to be that kind of big assassination inspiring a million conspiracy theories but a big part is more that President Dragon is almost certainly not actually dead and very likely planned the whole thing. His will is a pretty famous bit of plot and lols. I thought canonically his spirit is plugging the hole the Horrors were using to come through centuries early?
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Dec 14, 2022 13:23
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Was absolutely meant to be that kind of big assassination inspiring a million conspiracy theories but a big part is more that President Dragon is almost certainly not actually dead and very likely planned the whole thing. His will is a pretty famous bit of plot and lols. The will always bothered me, and I only now realize why. There's stuff like, "To the owner of a Datsun Sunspire that was crushed under a large piece of plascrete on Ballemer Street in Seattle on March 11th, 2041, I leave my 1929 Rolls Royce. Sorry, I had an itch that day" and it's like: you could have made that amends when you were loving alive, rear end in a top hat.
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Dec 14, 2022 14:00
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Magnetic North posted:The will always bothered me, and I only now realize why. There's stuff like, "To the owner of a Datsun Sunspire that was crushed under a large piece of plascrete on Ballemer Street in Seattle on March 11th, 2041, I leave my 1929 Rolls Royce. Sorry, I had an itch that day" and it's like: you could have made that amends when you were loving alive, rear end in a top hat. The rich trying to get out of having to take any blame while they're alive is a timeless practice that is not just limited to mostly-hairless bipedal apes.
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Dec 14, 2022 14:28
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Hypnobeard posted:I thought canonically his spirit is plugging the hole the Horrors were using to come through centuries early? My other guess was that his death was somehow part of the plan, but you never know with dragons. Randalor posted:The rich trying to get out of having to take any blame while they're alive is a timeless practice that is not just limited to mostly-hairless bipedal apes. A lot about Shadowrun has probably aged all too well, though I'm suspect of cyberpunk settings with corporate states mostly because I can't imagine any corporation being able or willing to actually run things well enough for anything the size of a country to actually function. Which I'm sure really just ties into the whole libertarianism not working thing, mind.
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Dec 14, 2022 15:28
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Ghost Leviathan posted:A lot about Shadowrun has probably aged all too well, though I'm suspect of cyberpunk settings with corporate states mostly because I can't imagine any corporation being able or willing to actually run things well enough for anything the size of a country to actually function. Which I'm sure really just ties into the whole libertarianism not working thing, mind. The only thing Shadowrun did wrong was have the megacorporations telegraph their dystopian nature too hard. Ares, Aztechnology, Saeder-Krupp, etc, nah, it's going to be Disney and Apple and the like
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Dec 14, 2022 15:53
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Kavros posted:The only thing Shadowrun did wrong was have the megacorporations telegraph their dystopian nature too hard. Ares, Aztechnology, Saeder-Krupp, etc, nah, it's going to be Disney and Apple and the like Well I mean it's not like they can really get away with using trademarks and copyrights. Though a Disney dystopia is a fun, terrifying idea.
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Dec 14, 2022 15:57
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Ghost Leviathan posted:A lot about Shadowrun has probably aged all too well, though I'm suspect of cyberpunk settings with corporate states mostly because I can't imagine any corporation being able or willing to actually run things well enough for anything the size of a country to actually function. Which I'm sure really just ties into the whole libertarianism not working thing, mind. Disney already has this on a small-scale with the county in Florida they fully own and control, where they... actually charge themselves higher taxes and gave more emergency vehicles to the neighboring counties that may have to help out with any major incidents. It's genuinely disturbing how wholesome Disney has been acting for 50+ years with their county.
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Dec 14, 2022 16:07
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Ghost Leviathan posted:My other guess was that his death was somehow part of the plan, but you never know with dragons. There's a quiet thread of metaplot running through the older Shadowrun canon that due to the sheer number of people on the planet putting out bad vibes (because the world is a cyberpunk dystopia and everything sucks, plus industrial-scale blood magic) the not-Lovecraftian Horrors are being attracted to the world much faster than any cycle before. The power of magic is growing at a more usual rate, so it's almost certain that metahumanity and its defenders won't have the mojo to fight them off and establish safe havens to ride out the worst of their time of power. The Great Dragons, even being the enormous assholes that they are, are pretty attached to the world. It's where they keep all their stuff, right? They've been worried since the most recent Awakening that the cycles have gone all out of whack, and talking quietly amongst themselves about what can be done. Some want to send the world back to the Stone Age and keep a hard limit on population, others think there's a better way to be found. Ol' Dunk has always been friendlier to metahumanity than most dragons, even back in the Earthdawn days. What he decided was that someone had to be willing to take one for the team to buy time to find that better way. It's hinted that yes, his spirit is in some other realm fighting a holding action, and that the "assassination" was the only way he could empower himself enough to do that. There is, after all, ancient and powerful magic in the willing sacrifice of a king for his people.
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Dec 14, 2022 16:32
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The basic problem with Corporate states is that it usually isn't worth the Corporations' time to try to take over the government; they already wield vastly disproportionate influence in both parliamentary and autocratic systems, without the expense of providing government services. Right now in North America the Police serve the interests of landlords and business interests and ignore the law if it conflicts with those interests. Why would a corporation fund a private police department when they are already getting most of the benefits on the public's dime? It's hard to credit that owning a city's infrastructure, and thus having to maintain that infrastructure, is more profitable than letting the taxpayer fund it and then just telling the bureaucracy where the new roads are going to be after making some campaign contributions. Corporations are already in a position to benefit from privatized profits and socialized costs, it's a rare situation where a company would choose to take responsibility for more costs. Disney is a weird case because maintaining that one little county at such a high level of services is a major part or the image part of their business. With the number of paying guests that come through that amusement park they can't afford the hit to their image that would come from infrastructure breakdown, or even things like littering or graffiti messing with the magic of the image. So in that limited situation it does make sense for the corporation to take over those functions for it's own benefit.
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Dec 14, 2022 16:49
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Lemniscate Blue posted:There's a quiet thread of metaplot running through the older Shadowrun canon that due to the sheer number of people on the planet putting out bad vibes (because the world is a cyberpunk dystopia and everything sucks, plus industrial-scale blood magic) the not-Lovecraftian Horrors are being attracted to the world much faster than any cycle before. The power of magic is growing at a more usual rate, so it's almost certain that metahumanity and its defenders won't have the mojo to fight them off and establish safe havens to ride out the worst of their time of power. Also, a big part of it coming faster is because a good chunk of the capitalists are in a murder-suicide cult. The south american/Aztec/generic Mayantec group have blood magic meant to basically usher in the end times the more it's used. Being a mixture of capitalists and doomsday cultists on par with Pentex, of course they're down bad with the magic and casually make blood sacrifices to usher in the end times so that they can die having won the "who is the wealthiest person at the end of our species?" award or whatever form of malignant narcissism that makes this make sense in their head. Of course, one thing that isn't as far as I know touched on in the books is that dragons, being greedy shitbags according to stereotypes (and oh boy does Shadowrun love it's stereotypes) would rather keep the current economic status quo barring the anti-humanity ones. So the quickest route to stopping them by tearing down the system the meso-american pastiche's exploit to keep solvent and enabling this version of humanity to possibly be the first age to actually push the eldritch horrors back instead of fleeing to underground structures isn't pursued because gently caress yeah exploitation for massive profit So, why is this on topic outside of the above last line? This goes back to a topic earlier in the thread where Shadowrun was mentioned as having a bad habit of focusing on societal outcasts rebelling against a system but also being implicitly okay with the system on a deeper/more critical look despite shallow "gently caress yeah we work in the shadows where the -man- doesn't have sway chummer" posturing, what with looking down on "wageslaves" and the like. Never mind that the wageslaves that man the secret blood temples devoted to unspeakable horrors probably don't have a choice in it if they don't want to starve to death or end up with their heart ripped out next. Much in the same way this criticism can apply to the metatextual narrative behind the idea that the dragons don't like the idea of being husked by some eldritch horror, yet the writers also never considered that the characters most aware of this in the setting would maybe not want the system that directly enabled this nightmarish fate to not exist at all if it was ushering in the end times. Archonex fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Dec 14, 2022 |
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Dec 14, 2022 17:06
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Servetus posted:The basic problem with Corporate states is that it usually isn't worth the Corporations' time to try to take over the government; they already wield vastly disproportionate influence in both parliamentary and autocratic systems, without the expense of providing government services. Right now in North America the Police serve the interests of landlords and business interests and ignore the law if it conflicts with those interests. Why would a corporation fund a private police department when they are already getting most of the benefits on the public's dime? It's hard to credit that owning a city's infrastructure, and thus having to maintain that infrastructure, is more profitable than letting the taxpayer fund it and then just telling the bureaucracy where the new roads are going to be after making some campaign contributions. Corporations are already in a position to benefit from privatized profits and socialized costs, it's a rare situation where a company would choose to take responsibility for more costs. Pretty much this. Like Lex Luthor put it: "President? Do you have any idea how much power I'd have to give up to be President?" Even the East India Company and its countless modern counterparts prop up local authorities and replace them as necessary rather than actively taking power most of the time. Most attempts at anything more than a company town fail miserably because a corporation relies on so many things outside of itself. Disney does what's pragmatic because their business, especially with the theme parks, is their image, and that's easier than pushing a government to actually do all that poo poo because that might lean someone left of Reagan getting to be in power.
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Dec 14, 2022 17:18
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Do the Aztechnology blood sorcerers know they're ushering in the Horrors and they're all aboard with it, or is it just a matter of greed (or even thinking they're doing the right thing?) Presenting Mexica-Tenochca human sacrifice as a thing and as horrific is basically just historical accuracy, but presenting it as purposeful self-annihilation rubs me the wrong way, as strange as that sounds. It's something that was supposed to prevent or at least delay the apocalypse!
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Dec 14, 2022 17:28
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Do the Aztechnology blood sorcerers know they're ushering in the Horrors and they're all aboard with it, or is it just a matter of greed (or even thinking they're doing the right thing?) It's implied that at least some of the upper ranks do, yeah. The lay person has no idea that their state religion is probably fueling summoning eldritch abominations into the world. Not that some of the original membership might have a problem with that if it got them ahead. Aztechnology was basically formed out of multiple south american drug cartels (Complete with the performative cruelty and whatnot, this is important for later.) that used the chaos of the Awakening to subvert and then violently invade and overtake countries they were a part of. They never really stopped in war criming their way to more power at the expense of everyone else too. They also treat war crimes and atrocities that make the other megacorps blanch as a casual thing, have a track record of backstabbing shadowrunners either directly or through leaving out very relevant details that any moral person would want known ahead of time, have a state religion that secretly fuels apocalyptic blood magic, and generally any shadowrunner that is worth their salt knows they're card carrying villains that any sane person would want dead if their behavior was known to the rest of the world outside of the batshit greedy megacorp scene. To add more to the implications that they're working towards the end of the world: They also went out of their way to kill a dragon after making up a kangaroo court to falsely try it as guilty, and then after murdering it in cold blood performed an autopsy on it. All of this was live streamed over the internet in a very deliberate and meticulous way so that the entire world would see it just to rub it in to the rest of the dragons and anyone who had a problem with Aztechnology being the biggest evil bastards in a setting of bastards. So if they aren't one of the big bad's of the setting they're damned close to it given how overtly malicious and cartel-like their behavior is. Problem is they're also a founding member of the corporate court and have massive societal power to cover up their crimes. So despite having pissed off everyone no one can really take them out. Edit: Also, oddly enough they're an aversion of out of universe stereotyping. In setting Aztechnology makes a big deal about being related to the Mayan, Aztec, etc, etc, empires and affecting their trappings. However it's an open secret that most of their upper membership are pure spanish people and have nothing to do with them whatsoever. They're basically appropriating the cultural trappings of those their ancestors killed in the most shallow and parasitic way possible to make a buck via capitalism. For a setting that loves it's cultural stereotypes this is kind of huge and relevant to the topic overall. Archonex fucked around with this message at 10:51 on Dec 15, 2022 |
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Dec 14, 2022 17:37
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Pretty much this. Like Lex Luthor put it: "President? Do you have any idea how much power I'd have to give up to be President?" Even the East India Company and its countless modern counterparts prop up local authorities and replace them as necessary rather than actively taking power most of the time. Most attempts at anything more than a company town fail miserably because a corporation relies on so many things outside of itself. Disney does what's pragmatic because their business, especially with the theme parks, is their image, and that's easier than pushing a government to actually do all that poo poo because that might lean someone left of Reagan getting to be in power. I think this describes my feelings on Cyberpunk settings and what is appropriate for megacorps to actually control vs influence. To me, a cyberpunk corporation needs to at least pretend it's still beholden to national governments even if in reality those governments are wrapped around their fingers, because the underlying story tension is "how much control do they really have". Once corporations start doing poo poo like lobbing nukes at their competition, it ceases being Cyberpunk and is now a grimdark pastiche.
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Dec 14, 2022 17:42
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I think that's part and parcel of 80s-90s cyberpunk. I've noticed near-future dystopias tend to fall into one of two extremes: either The Government takes over everything and creates a totalitarian state with a single hierarchy, or governments dissolve in favour of Megacorporations, who create privatized dystopias while the spaces between them become a free-for-all. I feel like there was a period where a lot of sci-fi authors felt that actually-existing Western Capitalism and Soviet Communism were both consolidated, unaccountable bureaucracies that weren't so different from each other and might even merge together, which I guess dissolved throughout the 80s and died with the USSR. That strain of dystopian thinking is most visible in low-to-middlebrow films like Colossus, Rollerball, Robot Jox, and finally Terminator 2, which kinda tied a bow on it and gave way to more conspiracist and apocalyptic visions.
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Dec 14, 2022 21:01
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Halloween Jack posted:I think that's part and parcel of 80s-90s cyberpunk. I've noticed near-future dystopias tend to fall into one of two extremes: either The Government takes over everything and creates a totalitarian state with a single hierarchy, or governments dissolve in favour of Megacorporations, who create privatized dystopias while the spaces between them become a free-for-all. The Forbin Project reflected the fears of the Cold War, but surely its point was that regardless of the system, it was the cold logic of the war itself that dictated the actions of all players?
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Dec 14, 2022 21:06
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Archonex posted:Edit: Also, oddly enough they're an aversion of out of universe stereotyping. In setting Aztechnology makes a big deal about being related to the Mayan, Aztec, etc, etc, empires and affecting their trappings. However it's an open secret that most of their upper membership are pure spanish people and have nothing to do with them whatsoever. They're basically appropriating the cultural trappings of those their ancestors killed in the most shallow and parasitic way possible to make a buck via capitalism. lmao okay yeah that actually works pretty well then
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Dec 14, 2022 21:19
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Tangential, but the D&D/Warmahordes/Shadowrun stuff brings it to mind, when did Dragons make the change from “big evil lizard” to “suave greed elementals, basically demigods”? The recent Fizban’s Treasury book has this HARD, with a preamble that says “oh yeah most individual dragons exist simultaneously in all multiverses fyi”
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Dec 14, 2022 21:29
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Triskelli posted:Tangential, but the D&D/Warmahordes/Shadowrun stuff brings it to mind, when did Dragons make the change from “big evil lizard” to “suave greed elementals, basically demigods”? The recent Fizban’s Treasury book has this HARD, with a preamble that says “oh yeah most individual dragons exist simultaneously in all multiverses fyi” change? i think you're just describing the standard for most mythological dragons, nevermind fantasy ones St. George (killing something dangerous but ultimately just a weird animal) is an outlier, most western and eastern dragon myths describe creatures that are basically demigods
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Dec 14, 2022 21:34
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Fair, I’m a bit off base when you consider eastern myths. My headspace was with the Lyndwurm, Beowulf, Fafnir, Nidhogg examples of Dragons as greedy creatures that could talk but were dangerous more for their size than their political acumen
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Dec 14, 2022 21:38
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Both versions are pretty old. Chinese dragons are simultaneously animal alligators who eat your fish and ocean controlling gods. Even with St George the dragon was intelligent and evil enough to demand human sacrifice and value one human life at the same level as whole herds of sheep. Despite presumably a whole herd of sheep being more filling than one maiden.
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Dec 14, 2022 21:39
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Fafnir's kind of an edge case I guess, he's a cursed prince whose greed (plus kinslaying) made him into a dragon
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Dec 14, 2022 21:40
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:St. George (killing something dangerous but ultimately just a weird animal) is an outlier, most western and eastern dragon myths describe creatures that are basically demigods I think in a lot of England-related stories regarding 'dragons' being repelled or slain the dragon is otherwise depicted as 'just' a really big snake. I think there's a story about a guy getting rid of one that was investing a well. Imagine that one Babycakes cartoon about the knight presenting a crocodile to a King a saying "behold, a Satan!" but it's a larger-than-average snake and they're saying "behold, a Dragon!"
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Dec 14, 2022 21:40
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There is also the Christian tradition of having dragon mean Satan in a monstrous form, knocking stars out of the sky and what not.
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Dec 14, 2022 21:42
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Rappaport posted:The Forbin Project reflected the fears of the Cold War, but surely its point was that regardless of the system, it was the cold logic of the war itself that dictated the actions of all players?
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Dec 14, 2022 22:08
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Aztechnology actually being run by rear end in a top hat Penisulare is at least mildly funny, but I'm still irked that Mesoamerican culture continues to be the designated bad guys.LashLightning posted:I think there's a story about a guy getting rid of one that was investing a well. The Flight of Dragons book talks about a dude covering his armor in ground glass and going "eat me you coward!" so there's always been that undercurrent.
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