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The bit with the arms dealers is such a weird aside, like why just throw that in if you're not going to explore it further? Just reeks of pandering
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Dec 16, 2022 19:31
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The structure is so weird and self-compromised because all the plotlines pivot on the kylo/rey "join me?" thing. When that is answered in the most boring safe way possible the movie enters full violent confusing swerve back to generic hope and love of star wars mode until the end. It really is like two different movies awkwardly bolted together around that point. The first movie has interesting ideas with significant problems, but the second one is abysmal all around. This is another common ITT refrain of course, but time has made it even more obvious for me that the movie basically could/should have ended on the will rey join kylo question No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Dec 16, 2022 |
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Dec 16, 2022 19:39
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mllaneza posted:TLJ's biggest flaw, besides being two movies awkwardly crammed together, was not swapping Leia for Holdo in the hyperspace ramming attack. Carrie Fisher is gone, and you've got Laura Freaking Dern right there. Have Leia go out big, and then pass the torch to Holdo for the third movie. An unbelievable mised opportunity. The entire Skywalker family going out in suicide attacks, just like ol Ben taught them
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Dec 16, 2022 19:40
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:The entire Skywalker family going out in suicide attacks, just like ol Ben taught them  Kinda fitting for religious extremists
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Dec 16, 2022 19:41
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McCloud posted:The bit with the arms dealers is such a weird aside, like why just throw that in if you're not going to explore it further? Just reeks of pandering No Mods No Masters posted:The structure is so weird and self-compromised because all the plotlines pivot on the kylo/rey "join me?" thing. When that is answered in the most boring safe way possible the movie enters full violent confusing swerve back to generic hope and love of star wars mode until the end. It really is like two different movies awkwardly bolted together around that point.
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Dec 16, 2022 19:42
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McCloud posted:The bit with the arms dealers is such a weird aside, like why just throw that in if you're not going to explore it further? Just reeks of pandering That's a big part of why I think TLJ is two movies, Rian's and the studio's, stuffed into one runtime.
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Dec 16, 2022 19:46
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Everything with Finn and Rose is bizarre. At the end, Holdo goes out in a blaze of sacrificial glory, laying out her life to save the rebellion. Finn tries to make the same sacrifice, and Rose stops him for ???? reason? It's not clear to the audience what the difference between the two acts are.
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Dec 16, 2022 19:46
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You can tell that Rian had no idea what to do with FN so he just stuck him on this pointless little sidequest to a casino world where they can rescue Mike N Eich posted:Everything with Finn and Rose is bizarre. At the end, Holdo goes out in a blaze of sacrificial glory, laying out her life to save the rebellion. Finn tries to make the same sacrifice, and Rose stops him for ???? reason? It's not clear to the audience what the difference between the two acts are. Also literally the movie starts with Rose's sister going out in a blaze of glory to save her friends
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Dec 16, 2022 19:47
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One of the trickier things about reducing Leia's role in The Last Jedi is that she's not just a character onscreen intermittently over the course of a two hour movie - she's also played by a real person that the rest of the movie's cast and crew had known for months, years, or sometimes decades. Saying "well, she died so we need to figure out a way to get rid of her character" could feel like asking someone to remove a parent from all of their family photos after they die, or destroying art that they made because they wouldn't be able to complete the followup they were planning. Obviously someone would need to deal with Fisher's death, but I can definitely understand Johnson and the crew kicking that can down the road and leaving it to (at the time) Colin Trevorrow, who at least didn't know her personally and might be able to think of things more objectively. From an outside perspective, going the digital zombie route doesn't really help the movie in any way, but Abrams reusing footage from Episode 7 feels more like he's showing old home movies at her funeral, and giving everyone a chance to say goodbye to someone who meant quite a lot to a huge number of people.
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Dec 16, 2022 19:52
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Robot Style posted:One of the trickier things about reducing Leia's role in The Last Jedi is that she's not just a character onscreen intermittently over the course of a two hour movie - she's also played by a real person that the rest of the movie's cast and crew had known for months, years, or sometimes decades. Saying "well, she died so we need to figure out a way to get rid of her character" could feel like asking someone to remove a parent from all of their family photos after they die, or destroying art that they made because they wouldn't be able to complete the followup they were planning. Everything about it is grim spectacle. Actors die in the middle of production, this is not an entirely unknown phenomenon. People have had to come up with innovations around it since the beginning of film. Keeping Leia around as this grotesque puppet in ep 9 is not a good solution. To go further on the Kylo-Rey plot line - neither of their stories makes any sense if Rey doesn't join him, even if only for a short time. There's absolutely nothing pulling Rey in a Light side direction anyway, she found out her leading light hero is a grouchy fraud, the Jedi were losers brought down by their own vanity, and Ren was a victim himself. Why *wouldn't* she join him? Particularly after he just freed himself of Snoke? Bizarre poo poo. Mike N Eich fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Dec 16, 2022 |
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Dec 16, 2022 19:59
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The way rian ended up getting roasted for being the subverting expectations guy when the truth is he chickened out on so many fronts, I'm not sure if it's more funny or sad. "No half measures" - some guy on that one show rian directed
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Dec 16, 2022 20:05
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I think So Uncivilized put it very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtArKawnWNI
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Dec 16, 2022 20:09
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McCloud posted:The bit with the arms dealers is such a weird aside, like why just throw that in if you're not going to explore it further? Just reeks of pandering My favourite part of that nonsense is the plot holes it creates: Not one of these money hungry, no allegation groups ever thought of selling the fact that the FO is arming up to the republic The FO kidnaps children, enslaves populations, brutalises worlds.. and politely buys ships off people.
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Dec 16, 2022 21:07
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Extra row of tits posted:My favourite part of that nonsense is the plot holes it creates: Thats not really a plot hole, conflict is good for business and the hidden backstory of the sequel trilogy era is that the first order maintained support in the galactic senate and wasn't just hiding off in the galaxy somewhere. Real life arms dealers are not out there narcing on their buyers.
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Dec 16, 2022 21:10
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The Republic knew that the FO was arming themselves; it's not like they kept a galaxy-wide movement a secret. The FO was a movement within the New Republic, because the New Republic sucked. Based on synopses, it seems to me that a lot of Disney EU stuff is apologism for stuff in the movies that doesn't make sense. But even then, they couldn't sell the FO as some external invader because it just doesn't hold water with even the most casual fans. (The entire fleet of Star Destroyers buried on Exogol was bad enough.)
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Dec 16, 2022 21:13
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The real plot hole is that the arms dealers are supposed to be propping up the conflict indefinitely yet do absolutely nothing to stop the first order from winning completely
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Dec 16, 2022 21:16
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It really is wild how TFA throws the viewer back into this position as if the Empire never collapsed and the Rebellion has been ongoing for like 35 years. Yeah, there's a couple lines about there being a 'New Republic' and they re-name the Empire the 'First Order' but for all intents and purposes its the exact same conflict as if the 2nd Death Star was never destroyed and the film doesn't even give the viewer the courtesy of explaining why everything is the way it is. Heck, why even bother with "The First Order" and "The New Republic" at all? Just tell the viewer that after Palpatine was killed the Empire was able to keep some fractured level of control over the rest of the galaxy for a few more decades. It changes nothing.
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Dec 16, 2022 21:33
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I think that was one of rian's instincts for sure, that these entities were de facto just the empire and rebellion and it would be better if they were that de jure as well, and that's one of the few things 8 unambiguously accomplishes. But of course it's a phenomenally questionable use of 2/3 of the trilogy to set up this slightly different political state, then undo it
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Dec 16, 2022 21:44
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No Mods No Masters posted:The real plot hole is that the arms dealers are supposed to be propping up the conflict indefinitely yet do absolutely nothing to stop the first order from winning completely No, they're not propping up the conflict. They're just selling to everyone because they're amoral fuckers. They exist as a mirror to Finn of the opportunistic face of his own cowardice, which is rammed home by the betrayal of the Cracker. They don't care who wins or loses. They will make a boatload of money either way, with no concern for the loss of life they enable.
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Dec 16, 2022 21:44
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Mike N Eich posted:It really is wild how TFA throws the viewer back into this position as if the Empire never collapsed and the Rebellion has been ongoing for like 35 years. Yeah, there's a couple lines about there being a 'New Republic' and they re-name the Empire the 'First Order' but for all intents and purposes its the exact same conflict as if the 2nd Death Star was never destroyed and the film doesn't even give the viewer the courtesy of explaining why everything is the way it is. Yes, that's the original sin of the ST. And after that there was no possibility of it telling a good story, let alone a coherent conclusion for an epic 9 movies saga
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Dec 16, 2022 21:47
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Mike N Eich posted:It really is wild how TFA throws the viewer back into this position as if the Empire never collapsed and the Rebellion has been ongoing for like 35 years. Yeah, there's a couple lines about there being a 'New Republic' and they re-name the Empire the 'First Order' but for all intents and purposes its the exact same conflict as if the 2nd Death Star was never destroyed and the film doesn't even give the viewer the courtesy of explaining why everything is the way it is. This is, to me, the root of everything wrong with the ST. The need for there to be a
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Dec 16, 2022 21:53
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No Mods No Masters posted:The real plot hole is that the arms dealers are supposed to be propping up the conflict indefinitely yet do absolutely nothing to stop the first order from winning completely This one at least is easily resolved: they aren't trying to prolong the conflict, they're just making money off it while it's happening. What will they do when the resistance is crushed? Who cares, that's tomorrow
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Dec 16, 2022 21:53
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We would all have been better served by TFA devoting 10 minutes of run time to the galactic government and state of the galaxy, but JJ was too busy floating the camera in a circle around his actors to get you to focus on the shiny new thing
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Dec 16, 2022 21:55
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I mean, we can say the arms dealers are really terrible at their jobs, I guess it's a common enough star wars 8 motif, but presumably if your business is war you wouldn't want the war to end. I'll grant it's not stated as directly as I remember, but obviously space benicio implies it all and the movie never really gets around to refuting him
No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Dec 16, 2022 |
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Dec 16, 2022 21:57
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2house2fly posted:This one at least is easily resolved: they aren't trying to prolong the conflict, they're just making money off it while it's happening. What will they do when the resistance is crushed? Who cares, that's tomorrow It's not like the First Order is ever gonna demilitarize either. By the start of TLJ they've essentially won, the Republic is gone and the Resistance are just this tiny partisan group. That I think is where an opportunity was missed, you could have started ROS with the Resistance still this very small band of fighters, no big fleet, no capital ships, how does that group stop the First Order? And what happens after? Instead Palpatine comes back and the whole main plotline is irrelevant anyway since the FO doesn't matter as much as the Emperor's secret Sith fleet of Death Stars or whatever.
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Dec 16, 2022 21:58
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Maxwell Lord posted:It's not like the First Order is ever gonna demilitarize either. By the start of TLJ they've essentially won, the Republic is gone and the Resistance are just this tiny partisan group. That I think is where an opportunity was missed, you could have started ROS with the Resistance still this very small band of fighters, no big fleet, no capital ships, how does that group stop the First Order? I hope this time around they didn't buy their starships from the evil capitalists!
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Dec 16, 2022 22:04
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Maxwell Lord posted:It's not like the First Order is ever gonna demilitarize either. By the start of TLJ they've essentially won, the Republic is gone and the Resistance are just this tiny partisan group. That I think is where an opportunity was missed, you could have started ROS with the Resistance still this very small band of fighters, no big fleet, no capital ships, how does that group stop the First Order? And what happens after? Basically the only good thing about the movie was Lando's (still) winning smile being canonically so strong he mustered like half the galaxy up to fight the Sith star death star destroyer ships.
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Dec 16, 2022 22:05
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Grendels Dad posted:I hope this time around they didn't buy their starships from the evil capitalists! Why buy when you can steal?
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Dec 16, 2022 22:20
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Maxwell Lord posted:Why buy when you can steal? 
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Dec 16, 2022 22:23
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Maxwell Lord posted:Why buy when you can steal? Why steal if you can buy?
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Dec 16, 2022 22:24
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No Mods No Masters posted:I mean, we can say the arms dealers are really terrible at their jobs, I guess it's a common enough star wars 8 motif, but presumably if your business is war you wouldn't want the war to end. I'll grant it's not stated as directly as I remember, but obviously space benicio implies it all and the movie never really gets around to refuting him That reminds me that there are two plot threads in TLJ that ROS completely ignores - when Finn tells DJ they're gonna pay him back and DJ has that amazing "maybe" response and when Luke tells Kylo "I'll see you around kid" and If I remember correctly.....he never once shows up to Kylo Ren at all!! Guess he really wasn't haunting Ren's nightmares at all!! It doesn't matter!!!! He died and didn't matter at all!!! Cool!
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Dec 16, 2022 22:40
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Guys, remember how Finn stood up to Kylo in TFA in defense of Rey and was defeated and then Finn and Kyle never ever met again? That was cool!
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Dec 16, 2022 22:52
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Mike N Eich posted:That reminds me that there are two plot threads in TLJ that ROS completely ignores - when Finn tells DJ they're gonna pay him back and DJ has that amazing "maybe" response and when Luke tells Kylo "I'll see you around kid" and If I remember correctly.....he never once shows up to Kylo Ren at all!! It's so unbelievable that you didn't have a full movie of old kooky Luke trolling Kylo and calling him an idiot. That's how 5 people can beat The First Order - Luke annoys Kylo so much he just blows the whole thing up.
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Dec 17, 2022 00:53
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No scene of Kylo with Ghost Luke or Ghost Anakin is such a missed opportunity. Much as I find Ford’s performance pretty good in that scene, it’s clearly done for the convenience of 1) being an unexpected reveal in the moment and 2) Han being the only character to physically play opposite him in Abram’s previous movie. In exchange for that I’m distracted by the fact that he’s not a force ghost per se, just a hallucination I guess? Is Kylo’s frontal lobe just melting away in this moment? Why introduce this half measure out of the blue when there are options that would have a grander payoff? Because who cares at this point in this train wreck, here’s an actor you like to sprinkle a little sugar on your poo poo sandwich.
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Dec 17, 2022 00:59
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As with a lot of things in star wars 9, the movie itself certainly doesn't care so you might as well use any explanation you find fun. So I'm going with "leia gave kylo a force aneurysm with her dying breath"
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Dec 17, 2022 01:04
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No Mods No Masters posted:As with a lot of things in star wars 9, the movie itself certainly doesn't care so you might as well use any explanation you find fun. So I'm going with "leia gave kylo a force aneurysm with her dying breath" Oh yeah the way the Jedi can just like, put their hands on someone to heal them now? How the gently caress to any of them even die just touch yourself with the force lmao
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Dec 17, 2022 01:06
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Neo Rasa posted:Oh yeah the way the Jedi can just like, put their hands on someone to heal them now? How the gently caress to any of them even die just touch yourself with the force lmao Most of them didn't grow up with the Nintendo DS "touching is good" promo material, duh
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Dec 17, 2022 01:08
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Neo Rasa posted:Oh yeah the way the Jedi can just like, put their hands on someone to heal them now? How the gently caress to any of them even die just touch yourself with the force lmao None of them had girl-/boy-/friendfriends, I imagine they touched themselves with the Force a lot. I imagine. Like, a LOT.
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Dec 17, 2022 01:23
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Grendels Dad posted:None of them had girl-/boy-/friendfriends, I imagine they touched themselves with the Force a lot. Luminous beings we are.
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Dec 17, 2022 02:26
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Neo Rasa posted:Luminous beings we are. Unrelated to whatever discussion is going on, but I catch myself thinking about how Brian Cox (the physicist) has said the ingredient makeup of our bodies originates from long dead stars and like gently caress man, I found that poo poo's so profound when relating it to Yoda saying "luminous beings are we" lol.
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