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Dexo posted:My guess is they'll allow Homebrew stuff, as DNDbeyond already supports homebrew right now. As in DnDbeyond right now I could theoretically create literally every single thing from an official book I don't own by manually going through and creating them all, and use them in a campaign. A courageous decision. I have full confidence that Hasbro WOULD stop homebrew for the chance to charge players for everything. Also everyone will need to buy the module instead of just the DM.
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Dec 12, 2022 06:26
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Bottom Liner posted:That's their dilemma though, if they keep it simple and freeform they can't nickle and dime the monetization like the execs are itching to. If they have any level of enforcement, it'll be a broken mess and/or players will instantly hate it because they don't play that way in their games. Sounds like hasbro's problem to solve, not ours. If it sucks, it sucks and people will just keep using whatever they do now while some white guys in suits cycle job titles.
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Dec 12, 2022 06:26
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Bottom Liner posted:That's their dilemma though, if they keep it simple and freeform they can't nickle and dime the monetization like the execs are itching to. If they have any level of enforcement, it'll be a broken mess and/or players will instantly hate it because they don't play that way in their games. I'm with Dexo on this--I can see a system that's a mix of cosmetics and convenience being an absolute money hose for them if people actually switch to their system. The automation of the rules is less of an issue than the interface, is my expectation. Like, reactions are an utter nightmare--if there's a bard with Cutting Words in a fight, do they have to hit a 'Not This Time' pop-up every time any enemy does anything involving a roll? What about for weird situations that are only part-covered by the rules? The technical side of it is annoying but doable (if very prone to edge case bugs), but the UX side of an automated VTT D&D just seems full-stop impossible.
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Dec 12, 2022 06:41
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Lynx Winters posted:Sounds like hasbro's problem to solve, not ours. If it sucks, it sucks and people will just keep using whatever they do now while some white guys in suits cycle job titles. oh absolutely, I just think the money hungry execs are backing the workers into an impossible corner
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Dec 12, 2022 06:46
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I expect them just to replicate existing VTTs but more expensive, with more bugs, and with fewer features, but "better graphics." And I expect D&D fans to love it.
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Dec 12, 2022 13:59
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Jimbozig posted:I expect them just to replicate existing VTTs but more expensive, with more bugs, and with fewer features, but "better graphics." And I expect D&D fans to love it. It's true and I hate it
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Dec 12, 2022 16:37
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According to Mike Selinker, Kim Mohan passed away today. (Source is Facebook, via Kim's spouse.) From what I recall, Mohan worked for TSR and WOTC for 34 years with a brief break while he worked for Gary Gygax's first post-TSR endeavor. https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamedesigner/2207/kim-mohan
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Dec 12, 2022 23:44
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Re WotC monetizing D&D with digital stuff, keep in mind the incredible success of Magic the Gathering: Arena, which definitely required a lot of coding and is generating piles and piles of cash. This is a different problem of course, but part of Hasbro's confidence has to come from Wizards finally producing a real winner of a game platform. If their VTT gets even a tenth of the funding of Arena, it'll be the most-funded VTT ever made. Whether it'll work or not, I have no idea, and the Magic ruleset lends itself to automation far more than any RPG's does; but there have been loads of RPG games in the past based on D&D's rules, some of them coming pretty close to faithfulness to the rules. 5e's vagueness is definitely a challenge but in my opinion it's not insurmountable.
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Dec 13, 2022 01:01
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Leperflesh posted:If their VTT gets even a tenth of the funding of Arena, it'll be the most-funded VTT ever made. Whether it'll work or not, I have no idea, and the Magic ruleset lends itself to automation far more than any RPG's does; but there have been loads of RPG games in the past based on D&D's rules, some of them coming pretty close to faithfulness to the rules. 5e's vagueness is definitely a challenge but in my opinion it's not insurmountable. I will say that my previous point about things like reactions being impossible UX nightmares are only necessarily true if they ported 5e directly to VTT. If the whole point of D&D Next is to make a VTT-friendly system they could in theory just design around those types of choke points. I think it'd probably ultimately create a bad RPG experience, because the automation would almost definitely make any sort of situational bonuses/etc a huge pain in the rear end to handle, but it could work. Hell, I might even be into it. This type of intense hybrid video-game/RPG system is something that nobody other than the biggest name in the room could really do in this way, and it's not something that especially exists yet. I think it might not be something I'd personally love, but it would be cool to see RPGs take new shapes and try new things, and I can't see anyone else really trying this to this level. 5e is also already pretty well made for automation, I will say. I've coded up a game with RAW-accurate implementations of very close to all the SRD 5e monsters and I was super surprised at how non-ambiguous their powers and actions all were.
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Dec 13, 2022 01:44
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Eastmabl posted:According to Mike Selinker, Kim Mohan passed away today. (Source is Facebook, via Kim's spouse.)
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Dec 13, 2022 03:16
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OtspIII posted:I will say that my previous point about things like reactions being impossible UX nightmares are only necessarily true if they ported 5e directly to VTT. If the whole point of D&D Next is to make a VTT-friendly system they could in theory just design around those types of choke points. I think it'd probably ultimately create a bad RPG experience, because the automation would almost definitely make any sort of situational bonuses/etc a huge pain in the rear end to handle, but it could work. I don't see what the need for automation is here, though. Like, the cutting words example, you don't need a pop up that forces the player to click "not this time" each time it could be applicable, the player just needs to say, "hang on, I'm using cutting words" and then click cutting words on their character sheet.
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Dec 13, 2022 13:18
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It definitely feels like people are assuming that this VTT will have AAA design on it with every bell and whistle to attract people when all they really want is TTS but not janky and with a clean and user friendly UI. "Automation" seems to be a bit vague, but really all they need is "post button, roll numbers" and have the players move minis and pick targets (maybe with pop-up warnings that come up if a piece isn't in range to targeted that can be dismissed). Possibly there's the ability for users to write up their own macros and that would basically fill the roll in homebrew. Things like particle effects, special minis and other cosmetics all go in the monetization bin that other games have been successful in using like Fortnite.
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Dec 13, 2022 14:06
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Xelkelvos posted:It definitely feels like people are assuming that this VTT will have AAA design on it with every bell and whistle to attract people when all they really want is TTS but not janky and with a clean and user friendly UI.
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Dec 13, 2022 14:36
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Xelkelvos posted:It definitely feels like people are assuming that this VTT will have AAA design on it with every bell and whistle to attract people when all they really want is TTS but not janky and with a clean and user friendly UI. Yeah you said it more concise that I've been able to.
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Dec 13, 2022 14:38
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Did they even say they'll make a VTT
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Dec 13, 2022 14:45
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YggdrasilTM posted:Did they even say they'll make a VTT Yeah it's in the video and everything about them making OneD&D™
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Dec 13, 2022 15:20
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Xelkelvos posted:It definitely feels like people are assuming that this VTT will have AAA design on it with every bell and whistle to attract people when all they really want is TTS but not janky and with a clean and user friendly UI. Do I understand you correctly that you're suggesting the VTT Hasbro/WotC will produce is going to be produced with the intent of what "people" want? If "people" means the Hasbro and WotC executives, maybe. I bet we're lucky if "people" means the D&D development team, and that means Crawford would be in the lead. Dexo, are you posting materials from the promotional stuff? Is there an announced team or project manager for the VTT? If not, then it's too soon to assume anything. But the combination of executives who don't care about the game system itself, know very little programming, and have dollar-signs in their eyes doesn't bode well for a simple and practical result. Absent a project manager who can run interference for the team and maintain a clear vision, we could be in for anything from an overproduced interface to having to purchase miniatures in booster packs.
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Dec 15, 2022 01:17
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Narsham posted:Do I understand you correctly that you're suggesting the VTT Hasbro/WotC will produce is going to be produced with the intent of what "people" want? The executives aren't the ones who are going to be coding this so I have no idea why you keep coming back to them. If it's too soon to assume anything then I would say it's also too soon to assume that Hasbro executives are going to somehow gently caress everything up in the specific ways you've been envisioning throughout this discussion. Put another way: Leperflesh posted:Re WotC monetizing D&D with digital stuff, keep in mind the incredible success of Magic the Gathering: Arena, which definitely required a lot of coding and is generating piles and piles of cash. This is a different problem of course, but part of Hasbro's confidence has to come from Wizards finally producing a real winner of a game platform.
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Dec 15, 2022 01:58
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Yeah if there's anything to be worried about based on actual past events it's that the D&D vtt will copy Arena's achievement of having the most predatory monetisation model in its field. From a technical perspective, Arena is very good, maybe third in terms of usability and reliability (I'd put Hearthstone and Runeterra ahead of it, purely in terms of client design and implementation). The competition in the VTT space is nothing like as fierce and the companies involved have nothing close to the money that Hasbro will likely be splashing on this. With the ability to focus on a single game system too, it's going to take less work than went into Arena to blow away the competition.
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Dec 15, 2022 02:25
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All that's out is the video, that just shows a 3d VTT like literally any other number of 3D VTT's that have been made over the past 7 years. Like hate Hasbro/WotC all you want, they generally deserve it. But Making a 3d VTT is not that hard in the grand scheme of things. Don't get me wrong, any project or software is possible to mess up, hell I've messed up simple web applications, not saying it's impossible that it's bad or whatever. But just the outsized like expectations, or scale of this thing that some people are putting on it is silly. It doesn't need to automate all that much, if a player wants to use a reaction, they simply say into chat or on discord, "I'd like to cast shield" or whatever. It looks like it's just going to be Tabletop Simulator, only designed specifically for The 6th Edition of the Largest and Greatest RolePlaying game™. They aren't trying to make some hyper automated CRPG type experience. They are trying to create, you and X friends sitting around a table moving minis around a 3d space, only online. And in a way that allows them to sell you minis and other cosmetic poo poo like Dice or tilesets. I dunno if it hits, or if people will choose to use it but they are going to try and leverage the DnDBeyond userbase, and see if they can get people to play their games completely in their ecosystem. For Example, this was made by like 6-7 people(the team currently on the website, maybe some contractors or something additional) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXrRFOhghXw Dexo fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Dec 15, 2022 |
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Dec 15, 2022 02:37
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On the other hand, can you really underestimate a modern major corporation's ability to gently caress this poo poo up?
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Dec 15, 2022 14:47
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Yeah, but usually they gently caress it up on like the business side, like misjudging the market interest, or comical monetization side.
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Dec 15, 2022 15:23
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I must admit, I am a little curious what "VTT, but LOTS of money has been thrown at it" looks like. They might actually come up with an interesting feature or two for other VTTs to steal, who knows? I suspect if I do play the new D&D it'll still be on something like Foundry or Roll20, though.
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Dec 15, 2022 20:02
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My tepid take on DnD6 VTT is to ask three questions: what features will it actually have? How predatory will its monetization be? And what alternatives will there be/are they going to attack anyone else to try and hold a monopoly?
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Dec 15, 2022 21:55
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Megazver posted:I must admit, I am a little curious what "VTT, but LOTS of money has been thrown at it" looks like. WotC are too, but they're thinking about the money being thrown at it from the players and not the company.
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Dec 15, 2022 22:04
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Chaosium's no longer allowing AI art to be used by their artists.
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Dec 17, 2022 02:06
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On the other hand, AI art's almost-right-but-definitely-subtly-wrong sense of mass and geometry is a great fit for Call of Cthulhu, so maybe you'll see actual human artists borrowing a page back from the computers for inspiration.
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Dec 17, 2022 02:17
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Besides licensing access to the platform, selling custom dice (which I suppose means 3d dice rolled on the table and not in a chat sidebar), and selling miniatures and terrain features, how else can a simple VTT get monetized? Magic was already a well-tuned loot-box before that sort of thing existed virtually; if Arena is pulling in the big bucks, what can be done with the VTT to make it even close to those levels of profit?
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Dec 17, 2022 16:03
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There's no way a VTT will ever reach MtG levels of profit, but it's also a much smaller thing. Selling pre-made campaign modules, figurines, dice, cosmetics, etc. will generate a pretty significant revenue.
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Dec 17, 2022 16:28
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It's going to sell you random minis and terrain in lootboxes.
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Dec 17, 2022 16:32
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Narsham posted:Besides licensing access to the platform, selling custom dice (which I suppose means 3d dice rolled on the table and not in a chat sidebar), and selling miniatures and terrain features, how else can a simple VTT get monetized? Magic was already a well-tuned loot-box before that sort of thing existed virtually; if Arena is pulling in the big bucks, what can be done with the VTT to make it even close to those levels of profit? Close to Magic's level of profit? Nothing. Magic is a money printer full stop. Maybe they push the printer too hard from time to time, and people get mad and then they have to lighten the load for a bit, but it's still gonna keep printing money. But the problem that WotC is running into, is that there are a number of money making opportunities that they never had a way to get themselves. Until they bought DND Beyond they didn't sell digital versions of their own books, only licensed them to be sold through Roll20/FG/HeroLab/DNDB. Roll20 has the group finder where people can go find a group either free or paid to participate in. Foundry has something like this in it's discord, and FG has something like it on their forums. There is also startplaying. which makes money off of managing people's paid games. Roll20 and FG offer it for free, but once again it's on Roll20's platform so people are going to lean towards buying modules on roll20, and subscribe to roll20 for the lighting and other 'premium features' which keeps them attached. This would probably be something I would implement in any One DND enviroment. Have a place where you can just sign up for games and talk with GM's and other players and set up playing a D&D game with a minimal barrier to entry to jump in a one shot or something. Like going to a D&D night at a LGS and jumping in a random game. And get people playing. And once you get them playing...'Hey man you know those basic mini's for your class are cool, but hey if you pay just like 5 bucks you can create your own custom Mini in our Heroforge type thing for use', or hey these dice have fancy animations, and do someting 'cool' if a nat 20 or nat 1 is rolled. The real money maker arrives if this thing takes off becomes popular and it can become a 'marketplace' where WotC can take 30%+ in a DM's guild type passive income situation where people can sell their own (likely bad) module they made, or monster packs or item packs or whatever, and WotC profits off of other people's work.
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Dec 17, 2022 16:36
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Paizo makes a lot of its money on selling modules and all the importing of maps and such into Foundry is done by fans. if wotc can sell premium assets/special mechanics integration for all its modules on their own VTT that's money right there.
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Dec 17, 2022 16:51
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"ai art programs" is really nebulous - while I don't think chaosium is gonna kick an artist to the curb for using content aware tools in Photoshop, eg, a lot of the backlash is being sculpted in a way that I'm seeing a lot of people arguing in favour of the Spotify model and Disney's IP shenanigans, and muddy definitions and bad understandings of the tech are only adding chaos to this.
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Dec 17, 2022 16:53
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Mister Olympus posted:Paizo makes a lot of its money on selling modules and all the importing of maps and such into Foundry is done by fans. if wotc can sell premium assets/special mechanics integration for all its modules on their own VTT that's money right there. Not anymore, Paizo saw that it was a money making opportunity, and started selling modules directly for foundry. Used to have to do the weird fan conversion module with a PDF.
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Dec 17, 2022 16:54
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Tism the Dragon Tickler posted:There's no way a VTT will ever reach MtG levels of profit, but it's also a much smaller thing. Selling pre-made campaign modules, figurines, dice, cosmetics, etc. will generate a pretty significant revenue. It's also worth comparing it to how it was monetized before, i.e. "buy a book once". Obviously the gross total matters, but the more natural benchmark would be what it was making before and this looks like it's set up to easily be a multiplier on top of that.
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Dec 17, 2022 17:58
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Online Magic is seeing a bit of the same thing. On the one hand, you have the very official Magic Online and Magic Arena platforms, which seem to be doing gangbusters. They calculate all the effects for you, enforce the rules, and do a lot of automation throughout play. On the other, you have things like Moxfield and Archidekt's "Playtest Deck" feature, load-ins for Tabletop Simulator, or Goldfishing apps like Pisces which allow you to have a virtual tabletop with decks, tapping, shuffling, etc. but which rely on you to manually track damage, effects, abilities, etc. The streaming sphere is dominated by Arena or people playing in paper, but some folks (especially in the competitive circles) have been leveraging the new more manual tools to avoid paying for a $8,000 mana base or root around wondering where their proxy Lion's Eye Diamond is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O__keGjV4Bg
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Dec 17, 2022 19:22
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I think the big difference in a card game digital version or versions vs an RPG is that card game players are 99% playing the same game "correctly" and by the rules of the game, which is not true of RPGs, by design. A full rules enforced D&D (or any RPG, really) is a broken concept from the jump unless you mean only combat, but even then how do you possibly implement everything that can happen in a scene? It would inherently limit the players and GMs and turn it into a digital board game.
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Dec 17, 2022 21:54
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Ghost Leviathan posted:On the other hand, can you really underestimate a modern major corporation's ability to gently caress this poo poo up? Yep, easily.
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Dec 17, 2022 23:22
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It would be nice imo if people actually started playing RPGs according to their rules.
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Dec 17, 2022 23:28
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gradenko_2000 posted:It would be nice imo if people actually started playing RPGs according to their rules. Meh, Homebrew whatever you and your group want. Companies and people should make coherent and stable rules in the first place, but if people or groups want to change them to better suit them then god speed, who cares what people do in their own games if they are having fun.
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Dec 17, 2022 23:37
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